Chekhov Short Story Thread

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But who will ever wear such a number of things? There are only two of you?"

"Oh . . . as though we were thinking of wearing them! They are not to be worn; they are for the trousseau!"

"Ah, mamam, what are you saying?" said the daughter, and she crimsoned again. "Our visitor might suppose it was true. I don't intend to be married. Never!"

She said this, but at the very word "married" her eyes glowed.

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I found the whole situation with the daughter to be interesting. I wondered if the fact that she constantly denies that she will be married, and yet the narrator notices the way in which her actions do not match up with what she says, and so it is not as if she simply is making a personal choice to not want to marry, if indeed she knew that her prospects were not very good to for a marriage. While they may be part of the aristocrat elite, they are not part of the wealthy upper class, as had been discussed. The daughter does not really have anything in which she can bring into a marriage, their house is small and falling apart, and in a way her trousseau is something of a morbid joke. It is just a trunk full of old rags which she and her mother sewn together themselves because they have nothing else they can give.

In addition is the fact that they are so very isolated, they are not part of the social society, they keep themselves locked up within their dark house in their loneliness and mourning, so it is not as if the daughter as really any opportunity to try and meet a potential husband. They do not go out, and they don't really receive any visitors.

So I wondered if perhaps the daughter was aware of this, so though she might have liked to be married she saw the fact that she would not make a very good or likely match, and would not really have an opportunity to be married, so she tries to convince herself of this so not to give up her hopes.

It seems as if the mother is living in a sort of delusion in the way in which she dedicates all of her time and effort into putting together this alleged trousseau for her daughter, while there is no real hope in her daughter ever truly being married.

I can almost see the mother as this sort of senile figure that does not acutally want to deal with the outside world and so is pulling everyone else around her into her own little world that she creates for herself within the house. In her head she might have this fantasy of her daughter wedding, perhaps into a station above thier own, yet it is her own very actions that hold her daughter back and prevent her from ever truly being able to do this. The daughter might have had a chance for a different life, in her youthful hopes for marriage in spite of her denial, yet her mother severs her daughters connection with the living world.

You bring up some interesting points, DM.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I found the whole situation with the daughter to be interesting. I wondered if the fact that she constantly denies that she will be married, and yet the narrator notices the way in which her actions do not match up with what she says, and so it is not as if she simply is making a personal choice to not want to marry, if indeed she knew that her prospects were not very good to for a marriage. While they may be part of the aristocrat elite, they are not part of the wealthy upper class, as had been discussed. The daughter does not really have anything in which she can bring into a marriage, their house is small and falling apart, and in a way her trousseau is something of a morbid joke. It is just a trunk full of old rags which she and her mother sewn together themselves because they have nothing else they can give.

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Yeah, when I look back over the text I can see it this way, too. Originally, I had looked at the story as being more about restraint. The daughter and mother want to be social and marry but they're held back by a restrictive social code. While I think this is part of their problem, I can also see what you're saying. The physical reality of their situation holds them back, as well. This is particularly true of the daughter. She has little money and few options. It isn't only her values that are holding her back from marriage (if values are doing it at all)--it's also the situation which is doing that. This is another way to look at her plight and the choices she makes. I also think it brings up an interesting question for anyone reading the story. To what degree is the daughter's tragedy the result of her own choices? And, to what degree is her unfortunate end simply the result of her situation? Is the daughter responsible for what happened to her, or was she doomed from the start?

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

So I wondered if perhaps the daughter was aware of this, so though she might have liked to be married she saw the fact that she would not make a very good or likely match, and would not really have an opportunity to be married, so she tries to convince herself of this so not to give up her hopes.

It seems as if the mother is living in a sort of delusion in the way in which she dedicates all of her time and effort into putting together this alleged trousseau for her daughter, while there is no real hope in her daughter ever truly being married.

I can almost see the mother as this sort of senile figure that does not acutally want to deal with the outside world and so is pulling everyone else around her into her own little world that she creates for herself within the house. In her head she might have this fantasy of her daughter wedding, perhaps into a station above thier own, yet it is her own very actions that hold her daughter back and prevent her from ever truly being able to do this. The daughter might have had a chance for a different life, in her youthful hopes for marriage in spite of her denial, yet her mother severs her daughters connection with the living world.

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This idea of delusion is an important one in the story. The mother is very deluded certainly. She overlooks the flaws in the uncle's character until they become unavoidable. She also avoids talking about the daughter's death when it's obvious that's she's dead. There's some unwillingness in the mother to acknowledge reality. This is a recurring theme in Chekhov's stories. We had Yakov in "Rothschild's Fiddle" refusing to remember his daughter, and the convict in "Dreams" refusing to acknowledge that he can't escape. The mother is certainly another example of this. I wonder to what extent this extends to the daughter, though.

For some reason I never got notified that there were new posts to this thread, and it never showed up. So sorry for the dely but LitNet was messing with me.

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Originally Posted by Quark

I also think it brings up an interesting question for anyone reading the story. To what degree is the daughter's tragedy the result of her own choices? And, to what degree is her unfortunate end simply the result of her situation? Is the daughter responsible for what happened to her, or was she doomed from the start?

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I find it difficult to fault the daughter in this instance, as when we first meet her she is only 13 I think it says, and then he visits again seven years later, so she is just 20. At that period of time, as a young woman, she would not have much choice or ability to go out on her own. Without a husband she could not really leave the house, and it was clear her step brother would be no help to her. So I do not see her as having many options. As a young woman then she could not just go out on her own to try and make a match, she would need a chaperon of some sort.

Though we do not really know what causes her death in the end I think the story sets it up for her to be fated to that end, it is as if her mother saps the life out of her. Living in that house, she really did not have a chance to truly ever move beyond that.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

For some reason I never got notified that there were new posts to this thread, and it never showed up. So sorry for the dely but LitNet was messing with me.

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No problem. I don't think I would have been able to respond to anything you posted yesterday anyway. I've been visiting friends and family this week and it's been difficult to find a computer and time to writer out these posts with. Right now, I'm working with this imposible laptop which has such a small keypad that it's really hard to find the right keys. If this post is riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes my apologies, but my clumsy fingers push down several keys when I'm only trying to get one letter. Stupid thing. Don't get me wrong, these little laptops are cute, but they're wholey impractical. They must be cheap. That's the only explanation I can think of for their popularity.

Anyway

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I find it difficult to fault the daughter in this instance, as when we first meet her she is only 13 I think it says, and then he visits again seven years later, so she is just 20. At that period of time, as a young woman, she would not have much choice or ability to go out on her own. Without a husband she could not really leave the house, and it was clear her step brother would be no help to her. So I do not see her as having many options. As a young woman then she could not just go out on her own to try and make a match, she would need a chaperon of some sort.

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True, and I don't mean to say that the daughter somehow deserved the tragic end she got. I was justt thinking that hte house could be symbolic. It could represent the restraint that she is imposing on herself. Literally, physically, she could have the freedom to find a husband, but the restraint that the house represents could be holding her back.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Though we do not really know what causes her death in the end I think the story sets it up for her to be fated to that end, it is as if her mother saps the life out of her. Living in that house, she really did not have a chance to truly ever move beyond that.

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Again, true, but I think that if the daughter had said "I want to leave the house" the mother probably would not have stopped her. If there is a hold the mother has on the daughter, I think it's largely psychological.

If I can find time tongight, I'll try to come back and say something about delusions. I know that was brought up before, and I'd like to comment on it at some point.

I have been trying to read along, but I am not feeling well today, so I am finding it hard to concentrate. I hope I can comment tomorrow. You two seem to be doing a great job. I like the various points you have both brought to light here. Sorry I can't participate too much today. It's my stomach, not sure what's wrong with it. Gota go and try to eat something now. Hopefully I will be better tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Literally, physically, she could have the freedom to find a husband, but the restraint that the house represents could be holding her back.

Again, true, but I think that if the daughter had said "I want to leave the house" the mother probably would not have stopped her. If there is a hold the mother has on the daughter, I think it's largely psychological.

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Unless Russia was more liberal then other parts of Europe (I do not know much of Russia from this period of time, so I can only use what I know of others parts of the world) but would she turly have been able to just go out completely on her own and find a husband for herself without causing a scandal, and thus end up being litterally outcast by society in addition to the self-imposed excile of her mother and the house?

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Originally Posted by Janine

Sorry I can't participate too much today. It's my stomach, not sure what's wrong with it. Gota go and try to eat something now. Hopefully I will be better tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

would she turly have been able to just go out completely on her own and find a husband for herself without causing a scandal, and thus end up being litterally outcast by society in addition to the self-imposed excile of her mother and the house?

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If the daughter went out and found a husband who was somehow unsatisfactory to the rest of the family perhaps it would create a scandal. I didn't think it would come to that, though. The mother isn't opposed to the daughter getting married. She seems quite enthusiastic about it. The question is would the daughter have been able to go out and actively pursue a husband without seeming unfeminine. Women were not supposed to be the one who is active or pursuing in a relationship, and I think this is what was holding the daughter back. The notion was that women were supposed to sit and wait for their future husbands to arrive out of nowhere and woo them. You brought up a good point when you said that their material situation made it difficult to attract suitors. They didn't have money, and they live in near exile. This isn't the kind of situation that draws gentlemen, and this certainly hinders the daughter's chances at marriage. I think we can account for some of the tragedy through this explanation. I also have to admit, though, that it wasn't just their material situation that was hindering them. Why does the daughter have to wait for someone to woo her? Why does the mother not leave the house and find someone for her daughter to marry if she's so worried about it? To say they brought it upon themselves is too hard, but clearly they could have done more than they did. So there are two reasons for the narrator's sadness at the end: one is the beliefs that family holds which make them overly passive and the other is the material situation which makes it impossible to lure men by being passive.

It sounds like you're attributing this first problem (the passivity of the family) mostly to the mother. The mother manipulates the daughter to go along with it. I'm not entirely sure about this. It's hard to tell what the relationship is between the mother and daughter. The two characters are not on the page long enough to show whether one is controlling the other. We can infer from the fact that the mother runs the household that she has some control over the daughter. But, can we say that she's necessarily using that control to make her daughter more passive? It's difficult to tell. I tend to think that both mother and daughter are victims. Neither is really in control of the other, so much as both are under the control of some unseen influence. I called that influence class earlier, but maybe that's not the right term. Perhaps simply "the past" is a better way of looking at it. Their family and its beliefs seems to have indoctrinated the two, and it's indoctrinated both equally. The mother and daughter are both victims, then, of the same influence. Now the same reason I had for being skeptical about your reading could be applied to mine: that we don't know enough about these characters to know whether there really is an unseen influence acting on the mother and daughter. I have to acknowledge that, no, I can't sure whether I'm right here. It's just the reading I gave it, and there's probably several more good readings one could give the story than the two we've voiced so far. As we keep going, though, I'll try to think a little bit more about why I came to the conclusion that I came too. After all, I doubt I've pulled you over to my side yet.

I think you are somewhat misunderstanding me, perhaps I am not making myself clear. But I would presume, if a young single woman were to go out on her own to find a husband for herself that the rest of soceity would think she was a loose woman, and so a man would not want to marry her for acting in such a brazen and bold way. I do not mean she that her mother would disaprove, but that society as a whole would dissaprove. It would not be acceptable socially for her to find a hubsand for herself all on her own. Women were typically suppose to wait for the men to apporach them, or be presented by a family memeber, usually a male. But a young woman could not find herself a husband all on her own without then appearing to be without virtue, which would ruin any chance she had of marrying.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I do not mean she that her mother would disaprove, but that society as a whole would dissaprove.

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Oh, then I do misunderstand you. I thought you were interpreting the mother as the greatest obstacle to the daughter getting married. My mistake.

In any case, what do you think about the disorder of the house? I don't quite see how that fits in with the character of these two ladies. In the previous chunk of text, the house reflected the character of the women inside, but the untidiness of their home doesn't seem like much of a reflection on the mother and daughter. They seem to have everything together. At least, they live their lives according to all the rules. Why would the house not be wellkept?

1000 Posts!

It's worth pointing that out in bold seven-point font.

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Originally Posted by Quark

In any case, what do you think about the disorder of the house? I don't quite see how that fits in with the character of these two ladies. In the previous chunk of text, the house reflected the character of the women inside, but the untidiness of their home doesn't seem like much of a reflection on the mother and daughter. They seem to have everything together. At least, they live their lives according to all the rules. Why would the house not be well kept?

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I would disagree with you here. For me I think the image of the inside of the house does reflect upon their character. I personally don't seem them as truly being "together" in some ways perhaps this image we are given of the interior of the house might also reflect their own state of mind. Just as the outside of the house seems to more reflect their physical being as it were. Though they not actually be doing anything that is scandalous or criminal in a way perhaps they live too much out of society, and too much in their own world to be truly seen as living according to the rule. In a way perhaps they are just oblivious to the rules. They have imprisoned themselves.

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There was a smell of moth powder, and of goatskin shoes, a pair of which lay on a chair beside me wrapped in a handkerchief. In the windows were geraniums, and muslin curtains, and on the curtains were torpid flies. On the wall hung the portrait of some bishop, painted in oils, with the glass broken at one corner, and next to the bishop a row of ancestors with lemon-colored faces of a gipsy type.

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This image for me seems to reflect quite well just what one would except to find inside a how so dark and decaying as the outside of the house is seen to be. A place that is not truly being tended or cared for. I can imagine the inside of their house being coated in dust, and cobwebs. This also for me does conjure up images of a sort of "grandmother's" house. Particularly in invoking the scent of the moth powder, but also the images of the geraniums and the muslin curtains, it brings to mind a very strong image of a little old lady living in just such a place.

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On the table lay a thimble, a reel of cotton, and a half-knitted stocking, and paper patterns and a black blouse, tacked together, were lying on the floor. In the next room two alarmed and fluttered old women were hurriedly picking up similar patterns and pieces of tailor's chalk from the floor.

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The untidiness of the house reflects upon the general neglect that these women have for the outside world and materialistic concerns. Though the mother does seem to have some concerns for her daughter being married as we have discussed before, this seems more of a delusion on her part then something that can ever be actually realized. I think it also reflects upon the fact that we know they are not use to having visitors so perhaps they do not feel the need to always keep things neat and tidy. The two older women are startled and embarrassed by the sudden arrival of this gentleman in the midst of their work. In the way in which the mother and daughter seem to always be constantly working upon trousseau I can imagine they would always have these scraps of cloth about them, as they have little else to do with their time.

Wow, I am so behind now. Did you post any new text, Quark? I will have to try and catch up this week. I am going out again tomorrow. I am so sorry to be so unattentive and sooo far behind. I love this story and will promise to catch up real soon.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!! 1000 IS JUST GREAT!

I'm going over to my brother's place today and probably won't be able to post until I get back late tonight. I see DM posted something good, so I'll make sure to respond to that either tonight or tomorrow morning. Janine, I won't post more text for a couple of days as I'm also running behind here. I've been visiting people for the last few days and it's been difficult to find a computer and time to post. Tonight I get home, though, so see everyone then.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I would disagree with you here. For me I think the image of the inside of the house does reflect upon their character.

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I think so too, but I'm not certain in what way exactly the house reflects upon the characters. The comparison between house and characters is pretty clear in many other places, but here it seems to break down a little. I do think there is a connection, but it's probably a weaker one than the others we've noticed already. This may be because Chekhov is shifting from describing the family in general to beginning the action of the story. The mess may be less symbolic then because Chekhov is now trying to set up an individual situation rather than an overview. The disorder may just be a result of the family's seclusion. They don't have visitors much, so they let the house go. I know I do that from time to time. When there isn't anyone coming over I tend to get used to my own mess. That could just be my slovenly habit, though.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I personally don't seem them as truly being "together"

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I mean together as in "having it together." They seem to know what they're about. The mother has one goal (caring for the family) which she's carrying out zealously throughout the story. The daughter acts the part of the modest maiden. Mother and daughter have established roles, and they stick to them.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

The untidiness of the house reflects upon the general neglect that these women have for the outside world and materialistic concerns. Though the mother does seem to have some concerns for her daughter being married as we have discussed before, this seems more of a delusion on her part then something that can ever be actually realized. I think it also reflects upon the fact that we know they are not use to having visitors so perhaps they do not feel the need to always keep things neat and tidy.

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Yeah, I tend to see it this way too. It's really just a symptom of their isolation.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

This image for me seems to reflect quite well just what one would except to find inside a how so dark and decaying as the outside of the house is seen to be. A place that is not truly being tended or cared for. I can imagine the inside of their house being coated in dust, and cobwebs. This also for me does conjure up images of a sort of "grandmother's" house. Particularly in invoking the scent of the moth powder, but also the images of the geraniums and the muslin curtains, it brings to mind a very strong image of a little old lady living in just such a place

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That image goes hand in hand with the dilapidated chimney and other little marks of disrepair that the house has. There's a feeling that the house has seen better days. The staff might have, too. We've already commented on the elderly servants. The mother and daughter appear to be living in the shadow of more active, vibrant time. This past may have been tied to the patriarchs idolized on the wall. The family owes it's wealth and status to it's ancestors, and first amongst them is the bishop. Then, the colonel is put up.


I posted a translation of the French a few pages back, but it might have gotten lost. I'll repost it so we don't have to flip back:

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NOTES

Où est mon cravatte lequel mon père m'avait envoyé de Koursk? : Where is my tie, the one my father sent me from Koursk?

Ah, est-ce que, Marie . . . que: Oh, is it that, Marie . . . that

Nous avons donc chez nous un homme peu connu de nous: Because we have with us a man not well known to us

we speak French: French was the primary language of Russian aristocrats; however, by Chekhov's time speaking French was considered an affectation

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Looking back over the story, I noticed these lines:

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"But who will ever wear such a number of things? There are only two of you?"

"Oh . . . as though we were thinking of wearing them! They are not to be worn; they are for the trousseau!"

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When delusions were brought up, this was this first part of the story that came to mind. The mother is feverishly working away at the trousseau and doesn't even consider that she may be making too much. When the narrator asks about the excess the mother says "Oh ...", and the pause shows that the question had not even entered her head. There's a sense that she's just now looking up from her work.