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Now we agree. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I must have missed that. Where is Doestevski mentioned? What page?Quote:
It is strange she should hate Dostoyevski most; we just read "The Idiot" on here, in which the woman is very much out of the realm of reality; yet she is princess-like, admired by all the men she meets, sought after by many, but also ruins so many lives along her path in life. I found Lawrence reference to D's work of interest.
Somewhat but not entirely...but that's a start..Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
In this paragraph,Quote:
I must have missed that. Where is Doestevski mentioned? What page?
I thought I had already quoted this a few posts back. I don't know now....too confusing.Quote:
Her father let her see the world--from the outside. And he let her read. When she was in her teens she read Zola and Maupassant, and with the eyes of Zola and Maupassant she looked on Paris. A little later she read Tolstoi and Dostoevsky. The latter confused her. The others, she seemed to understand with a very shrewd, canny understanding, just as she understood the Decameron stories as she read them in their old Italian, or the Nibelung poems. Strange and uncanny, she seemed to understand things in a cold light perfectly, with all the flush of fire absent. She was something like a changeling, not quite human.
She does not really say that she hates Dostoevsky though
Right, it just says "The latter confused her."...oh, sorry my mistake on the earlier post...right she was just confused by the author; perhaps she could not relate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Oh yes, you did point thaat out and I do remember. I think she's confused by Dostevsky because he's also anti intellectual and captures a blood vitality.
I don't know if Dostoevsky really captures a "bloody vitality," but I would agree with the anti-intellectual part. The princess appears to recognize only the ideal perception of reality--rather than its immediate experience. Writers like Lawrence and Dosdoevsky probably would look down upon this. When the narrator tells us that she doesn't understand Dosdoevsky, we probably should take this as meaning that she also doesn't get Lawrence and what he's trying to do in this story. It's a bit of irony. Later, she's led to New Mexico where she tries to experience these things first-hand, but still is unable to understand what's going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I think that is a good point, Quark, I would agree mostly with what you said.
Funny, Lawrence liked D first time he read him, then after repeated readings, he deeply criticised the author. Now I believe he liked best of all his books "The Idiot" - the novel we recently discussed on here. It was a good book and very symbolic, especially with the Christ-like figure. Interesting to me that L used a reference to D in this story.
Hey, I love your new signature quote - Chekhov "Dreams" eh? Did we read and discuss "Dreams" yet? duh, I forget. Is "Dreams" a short story? I seem to vaguely recall it.
BTW, did you get the CD's yet in the mail?
I think Dreams was the last story we just did.
Was it really? Geez, now I can't recall a thing about it...that is strange...did I participate in that discussion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes you did. It was the one with the Tramp who was going to be exiled, and he was talking to the two constables, walking through the damp mashy land
Oh yeah, now it came back to me. It didn't have much plot so that is probably why I forgot it. Thanks for refreshing my poor memory. Right at present it is a wonder I can think clearly at all; been going through a family crisis. For now I don't think I can post much more in this thread but I will try my best when I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Are we ready for the next section?
CertainlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Why the change of heart? I can see why he would like Dostoevsky, but why wouldn't he? Was it the bloodless, virginal heroes? I think L would probably like Dmitri from The Brothers Karamazov, but, of course, he isn't the hero.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
It's too bad I missed that discussion on "The Idiot." I reread it a couple of weeks ago. I'll have to review what was said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
DM is right. We read that story a few months ago. I've just been too lazy to change my signature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes, but apparently you were in a haze the whole time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I picked them up a few days ago. They will come in quite handy on the long car drive up to Michigan that I have take later next week. Thanks again, and nice handwriting--very, very cursive--by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
[quote]Why the change of heart? I can see why he would like Dostoevsky, but why wouldn't he? Was it the bloodless, virginal heroes? I think L would probably like Dmitri from The Brothers Karamazov, but, of course, he isn't the hero.
Not sure now, Quark. I read it in his Essay book on Literature. I own the book now so I will have to check it out and get back to you. Like anything else Lawrence, his reasons were pretty complicated. Probably was the 'bloodless, virginal heroes'...haha - that is a good way of stating it. He sort of hated the Grand Inquisitor I think but I didn't read those books so I didn't fully comprehend what he was getting at. I will get back to you on it someday when I read those essays.
Yeah, that was a good book and a good discussion, as well.Quote:
It's too bad I missed that discussion on "The Idiot." I reread it a couple of weeks ago. I'll have to review what was said.
Oh, that is true; you did have that signature back then, but I still like it.Quote:
DM is right. We read that story a few months ago. I've just been too lazy to change my signature.
Truly I believe I was, or was it a fog? ;)Quote:
Yes, but apparently you were in a haze the whole time.
Great! They would be neat to listen to in the car. I had not thought of that before. I usually listen to them on headphones so I concentrate really well; except often I fall asleep and wake up somewhere way advanced and then don't know at what point I dozed off...sort of a pain when that happens. Hope you enjoy the stories on CD...haha...I always think I write sloppy on those discs...thanks, I can write nicer cursive than that really. It tends to be problematic writing on slippery plastic.Quote:
I picked them up a few days ago. They will come in quite handy on the long car drive up to Michigan that I have take later next week. Thanks again, and nice handwriting--very, very cursive--by the way.
Mr. Branagh played "Ivanov" on stage recently in London; you can see some stills on video clips on Youtube. It looked to be a very good play/production. One of the videos has some of the audio included. Sounds like an interesting story/play. Ever read it, Quark? Chekhov wrote it when he was very young, I understand from the discussion panel on the one video clip - may have said 17. Wow, to have such talent!
Ok, I know you've been dying for the next section. ;)
I found this a fascinating passage. First Lawrence has Romero leave the scene to go with Miss Cummins. He could have created a justification for Misss Cummins to go back alone, but he doesn't. He has Dollie go on alone. Such a facinating passage of her alone. Here look at it carefully:Quote:
"Better all go back, and come again another day," said Romero--non-committal.
"There will never be another day," cried the Princess. "I want to go on."
She looked at him square in the eyes, and met the spark in his eye.
He raised his shoulders slightly.
"If you want it," he said. "I'll go on with you. But Miss Cummins can ride my horse to the end of the canyon, and I lead the buckskin. Then I come back to you."
It was arranged so. Miss Cummins had her saddle put on Romero's black horse, Romero took the buckskin's bridle, and they started back. The Princess rode very slowly on, upwards, alone. She was at first so angry with Miss Cummins that she was blind to everything else. She just let her mare follow her own inclinations.
The peculiar spell of anger carried the Princess on, almost unconscious, for an hour or so. And by this time she was beginning to climb pretty high. Her horse walked steadily all the time. They emerged on a bare slope, and the trail wound through frail aspen stems. Here a wind swept, and some of the aspens were already bare. Others were fluttering their discs of pure, solid yellow leaves, so nearly like petals, while the slope ahead was one soft, glowing fleece of daffodil yellow; fleecy like a golden foxskin, and yellow as daffodils alive in the wind and the high mountain sun.
She paused and looked back. The near great slopes were mottled with gold and the dark hue of spruce, like some unsinged eagle, and the light lay gleaming upon them. Away through the gap of the canyon she could see the pale blue of the egg-like desert, with the crumpled dark crack of the Rio Grande Canyon. And far, far off, the blue mountains like a fence of angels on the horizon.
And she thought of her adventure. She was going on alone with Romero. But then she was very sure of herself, and Romero was not the kind of man to do anything to her against her will. This was her first thought. And she just had a fixed desire to go over the brim of the mountains, to look into the inner chaos of the Rockies. And she wanted to go with Romero, because he had some peculiar kinship with her; there was some peculiar link between the two of them. Miss Cummins anyhow would have been only a discordant note.
She rode on, and emerged at length in the lap of the summit. Beyond her was a great concave of stone and stark, dead-grey trees, where the mountain ended against the sky. But nearer was the dense black, bristling spruce, and at her feet was the lap of the summit, a flat little valley of sere grass and quiet-standing yellow aspens, the stream trickling like a thread across.
It was a little valley or shell from which the stream was gently poured into the lower rocks and trees of the canyon. Around her was a fairy-like gentleness, the delicate sere grass, the groves of delicate-stemmed aspens dropping their flakes of bright yellow. And the delicate, quick little stream threading through the wild, sere grass.
Here one might expect deer and fawns and wild things, as in a little paradise. Here she was to wait for Romero, and they were to have lunch.
She unfastened her saddle and pulled it to the ground with a crash, letting her horse wander with a long rope. How beautiful Tansy looked, sorrel, among the yellow leaves that lay like a patina on the sere ground. The Princess herself wore a fleecy sweater of a pale, sere buff, like the grass, and riding-breeches of a pure orange-tawny colour. She felt quite in the picture.
From her saddle-pouches she took the packages of lunch, spread a little cloth, and sat to wait for Romero. Then she made a little fire. Then she ate a devilled egg. Then she ran after Tansy, who was straying across-stream. Then she sat in the sun, in the stillness near the aspens, and waited.
The sky was blue. Her little alp was soft and delicate as fairy-land. But beyond and up jutted the great slopes, dark with the pointed feathers of spruce, bristling with grey dead trees among grey rock, or dappled with dark and gold. The beautiful, but fierce, heavy cruel mountains, with their moments of tenderness.
She saw Tansy start, and begin to run. Two ghost-like figures on horseback emerged from the black of the spruce across the stream. It was two Indians on horseback, swathed like seated mummies in their pale-grey cotton blankets. Their guns jutted beyond the saddles. They rode straight towards her, to her thread of smoke.
As they came near, they unswathed themselves and greeted her, looking at her curiously from their dark eyes. Their black hair was somewhat untidy, the long rolled plaits on their shoulders were soiled. They looked tired.
They got down from their horses near her little fire--a camp was a camp--swathed their blankets round their hips, pulled the saddles from their ponies and turned them loose, then sat down. One was a young Indian whom she had met before, the other was an older man.
"You all alone?" said the younger man.
"Romero will be here in a minute," she said, glancing back along the trail.
"Ah, Romero! You with him? Where are you going?"
"Round the ridge," she said. "Where are you going?"
"We going down to Pueblo."
"Been out hunting? How long have you been out?"
"Yes. Been out five days." The young Indian gave a little meaningless laugh.
"Got anything?"
"No. We see tracks of two deer--but not got nothing."
The Princess noticed a suspicious-looking bulk under one of the saddles--surely a folded-up deer. But she said nothing.
"You must have been cold," she said.
"Yes, very cold in the night. And hungry. Got nothing to eat since yesterday. Eat it all up." And again he laughed his little meaningless laugh. Under their dark skins, the two men looked peaked and hungry. The Princess rummaged for food among the saddle-bags. There was a lump of bacon--the regular stand-back--and some bread. She gave them this, and they began toasting slices of it on long sticks at the fire. Such was the little camp Romero saw as he rode down the slope: the Princess in her orange breeches, her head tied in a blue-and-brown silk kerchief, sitting opposite the two dark-headed Indians across the camp-fire, while one of the Indians was leaning forward toasting bacon, his two plaits of braid-hair dangling as if wearily.
Romero rode up, his face expressionless. The Indians greeted him in Spanish. He unsaddled his horse, took food from the bags, and sat down at the camp to eat. The Princess went to the stream for water, and to wash her hands.
"Got coffee?" asked the Indians.
"No coffee this outfit," said Romero.
They lingered an hour or more in the warm midday sun. Then Romero saddled the horses. The Indians still squatted by the fire. Romero and the Princess rode away, calling Adios! to the Indians over the stream and into the dense spruce whence two strange figures had emerged.
I noticed the focus on the color yellow and wonder if there is any significance. Certainly the flowers alive in the inert and lifeless canyon is striking and I think a symbol of Lawrence's paradisial ideal. They have no will and everything about the Princess has been about her will and how she hated to be "thwarted." Lawrence continues:Quote:
The peculiar spell of anger carried the Princess on, almost unconscious, for an hour or so. And by this time she was beginning to climb pretty high. Her horse walked steadily all the time. They emerged on a bare slope, and the trail wound through frail aspen stems. Here a wind swept, and some of the aspens were already bare. Others were fluttering their discs of pure, solid yellow leaves, so nearly like petals, while the slope ahead was one soft, glowing fleece of daffodil yellow; fleecy like a golden foxskin, and yellow as daffodils alive in the wind and the high mountain sun.
She paused and looked back. The near great slopes were mottled with gold and the dark hue of spruce, like some unsinged eagle, and the light lay gleaming upon them. Away through the gap of the canyon she could see the pale blue of the egg-like desert, with the crumpled dark crack of the Rio Grande Canyon. And far, far off, the blue mountains like a fence of angels on the horizon.
Notice how she thinks her will is paramount, and she continues to exert it with her "fixed desire to go over the brim of the mountains." And Lawrence continues:Quote:
And she thought of her adventure. She was going on alone with Romero. But then she was very sure of herself, and Romero was not the kind of man to do anything to her against her will. This was her first thought. And she just had a fixed desire to go over the brim of the mountains, to look into the inner chaos of the Rockies. And she wanted to go with Romero, because he had some peculiar kinship with her; there was some peculiar link between the two of them. Miss Cummins anyhow would have been only a discordant note.
She rode on, and emerged at length in the lap of the summit. Beyond her was a great concave of stone and stark, dead-grey trees, where the mountain ended against the sky. But nearer was the dense black, bristling spruce, and at her feet was the lap of the summit, a flat little valley of sere grass and quiet-standing yellow aspens, the stream trickling like a thread across.
Here we get the direct announcement of a paradise, even with a suggestion of the super natural, faires. And she makes a little camp here and the setting imposes on her:Quote:
It was a little valley or shell from which the stream was gently poured into the lower rocks and trees of the canyon. Around her was a fairy-like gentleness, the delicate sere grass, the groves of delicate-stemmed aspens dropping their flakes of bright yellow. And the delicate, quick little stream threading through the wild, sere grass.
Here one might expect deer and fawns and wild things, as in a little paradise. Here she was to wait for Romero, and they were to have lunch.
I think the mountains, with their cruelty and tenderness, are looking down on her and I think later take on even more importance, but here I think Lawrence is setting us up for a relationship between Dollie and the mountains, the mountains being dieties in which she just doesn't understand the language.Quote:
The sky was blue. Her little alp was soft and delicate as fairy-land. But beyond and up jutted the great slopes, dark with the pointed feathers of spruce, bristling with grey dead trees among grey rock, or dappled with dark and gold. The beautiful, but fierce, heavy cruel mountains, with their moments of tenderness.
Other interesting things from this passage? I found the way Romero responds to her after she insists on going on curious:
Normally someone would say "if you want to," but I think there is a sexual double entedre in the way Lawrence has Romero phrase it. And she doesn't get it. :lol:Quote:
"There will never be another day," cried the Princess. "I want to go on."
She looked at him square in the eyes, and met the spark in his eye.
He raised his shoulders slightly.
"If you want it," he said. "I'll go on with you...
I also found curious the situation between the two Indians who come upon her camp. It strikes me that this could have been a dangerous situation for a woman alone and they could have taken advantage of her and perhaps would have if Romero wasn't mentioned and if he didn't show up shortly. I put this into a Lawrence context of another story he wrote the same year as this called "The Woman Who Rode Away," a story of a woman taken prisoner by an group of Indians, one of the truely great short stories ever written if you ask me. Again this scene with the Indians here serves no structural purpose to the story. It could have been left out and it wouldn't have mattered, but I think it adds thematic material: the sense of danger, the native people living off the wild, the masculine culture.
Oh yeah, just dying for you to post this. Tomorrow is Christmas Eve you know. I am suppose to be able to think right now? I answer this as best I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I thought that was some of the most beautiful writing I ever read from Lawrence - descriptive. Don't you perceive that the 'yellow' corresponds to the sun and the warmth that Lawrence craved? Also, the way the leaves are fluttering and falling away from the tree reminds me of a fallen or scattered sort of sunlight. I do think the color very significant and then also referring to the area looking like daffodils. How sunny a daffodil is. I think she is basking in sunlight and nature when she comes to that glen - where she expects to have this romantic picnic with Romero, not what he has in-mind. Once again, I don't picture this terrain the way you showed it in your Grand Canyon photos. I see it more like a combination of high ground with woodlands and plenty of aspen trees. I have encountered this type of place out west and it was a gradual climb, not so severe as in the Grand Canyon but still it can be quite treacherous. I still must dig up those photos of NM and the areas around the ranch...then you will see what I mean...there were meadows there and probably the terrain has more variations and not just bare granite.Quote:
I found this a fascinating passage. First Lawrence has Romero leave the scene to go with Miss Cummins. He could have created a justification for Misss Cummins to go back alone, but he doesn't. He has Dollie go on alone. Such a facinating passage of her alone. Here look at it carefully:
I think the yellow refers to sun, sunlight, brightness, flowers, life as opposed to death. Yes, definitely a symbol of 'Lawrence's paradisial ideal'...good thought. Yes, and this story certainly does have a great deal to do with 'will'. Right, she 'hated to be thwarted' and she remained so even to the end of this story.Quote:
I noticed the focus on the color yellow and wonder if there is any significance. Certainly the flowers alive in the inert and lifeless canyon is striking and I think a symbol of Lawrence's paradisial ideal. They have no will and everything about the Princess has been about her will and how she hated to be "thwarted." Lawrence continues:
Well, her father built her up to think it was paramount. She learned it at a very early age. One cannot really blame her thinking. It is distorted to a degree; I think Lawrence is no condemning her but understanding her; otherwise why would he take the time in the beginning of this story to spend telling us of her early years and how she was shaped; how her thinking was formed?Quote:
Notice how she thinks her will is paramount, and she continues to exert it with her "fixed desire to go over the brim of the mountains." And Lawrence continues:
Yes, very 'fairy-like' and at least temporarily a 'paradise' to her. Yes, I noticed the way the setting begins to impose itself on her. The setting is a character in itself....very threatening are the dark mountains. The sunny glen as a great contrast to dark menacing mountains...mountains in shadow.Quote:
Here we get the direct announcement of a paradise, even with a suggestion of the super natural, faires. And she makes a little camp here and the setting imposes on her:
True...she sees them as 'cruel' and yet 'tender'...now that is interesting. So does this mean she later sees Romero as 'cruel, but tender'?Quote:
I think the mountains, with their cruelty and tenderness, are looking down on her and I think later take on even more importance, but here I think Lawrence is setting us up for a relationship between Dollie and the mountains, the mountains being dieties in which she just doesn't understand the language.
I didn't find it that curious. I think he was being cautious, in a way covering his own tracks, know what I mean? He may have sensed he was heading down a path of danger taking her into the mountains - crossing that thin line that had, up until now, existed between them.Quote:
Other interesting things from this passage? I found the way Romero responds to her after she insists on going on curious:
Yes, I thought the same thing. One has to really read carefully exactly how Lawrence writes the lines. That is significant I think. Again he is being cautious with her, asking all the right questions before-hand.Quote:
Normally someone would say "if you want to," but I think there is a sexual double entedre in the way Lawrence has Romero phrase it. And she doesn't get it. :lol:
You know, I felt that built suspense and introduced the notion into our heads concerning real danger. Up until then one could say, things might be fine really but we realise that something strange is going to happen the closer we get to the top of the incline, the mountains. This reminds me of the mountains in "The Prussian Officer" except those were white with glistening cold snow, weren't they? Also, in WIL, the mountains become the cold deadly fate for Gerald. It seems that fate is driving the Princess onward and upward, too. She is drawn by her own desire to climb to the nature she wishes to experience, but in the end, it will be fatal to her...almost climbing to a sort of death - an emotional death...for Romero the death is physical, for the Princess she appears 'untouched', but I believe she experiences a full emotional death...as a woman she now is like a shell of emptiness...I don't know...does that make sense? I am a little tired out, so not sure I am making logical sense, at this point. It is just a thought - something to throw out there and see what you think.Quote:
I also found curious the situation between the two Indians who come upon her camp. It strikes me that this could have been a dangerous situation for a woman alone and they could have taken advantage of her and perhaps would have if Romero wasn't mentioned and if he didn't show up shortly. I put this into a Lawrence context of another story he wrote the same year as this called "The Woman Who Rode Away," a story of a woman taken prisoner by an group of Indians, one of the truely great short stories ever written if you ask me. Again this scene with the Indians here serves no structural purpose to the story. It could have been left out and it wouldn't have mattered, but I think it adds thematic material: the sense of danger, the native people living off the wild, the masculine culture.
Added this today - 24th:
I will be on vacation from this thread until the weekend.
Everybody, have a great Christmas!
Best Wishes ~ Janine
Hello, excuse the interruption but I was curious to whether there had been any discussion of his three novellas? my meaning being the compilation of The Fox, The Captain's Doll and The Ladybird.
If you haven't - i must insist you read them. After reading Virgin and the Gypsy ( Gipsy? ) i was slightly put off Lawrence until I read the previously mentioned.
Oh we have not discussed those works limajean. I have read only The Fox of those four novellas. But I would love to read the other three and even The Fox again. In a few months we plan to read together and discuss The Rainbow. Perhaps you can join us. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Ahhh, well, when you do read the novellas, i'll sure have something to say.
Maybe you could keep me posted?
Welcome limajean!
Personally, I think it will be awhile before we do discuss those in this thread; we may even consider starting a 'novella' thread for Lawrence. In this thread we still have a number of his short stories to discuss. Lawrence wrote a ton of them.
I recently saw the film that was based on "The Virgin and the Gypsy" and I did like it. I re-read the story not long ago. I loved "The Fox" and recently I read the novella/short story "Love Among the Haystakes". You might be interested in that read. I really enjoyed it a lot - more pastoral and from Lawrence early period, I believe. I don't think I ever read "Captain's Doll" or "The Ladybird". I had always planned on it but seems I didn't get to those yet. I have read most of Lawrence work and some twice now for our discussions.
Just a suggestion, but when we do the next short story, why not join us for the discussion. I don't know if we will chose one next month or every other month. We have to talk it over since several of us also participate in the Chekhov short story thread; recently I suggested we alternate the stories and discussions.
At anyrate, we will be sure to keep you informed.
When the next story is decided upon, i'll join in. I'll follow the thread closely so i don't fall behind. :]
I wasn't much of a fan of Virgin and the Gypsy. However, my reading of the three novellas certainly changed my opinion of Lawrence...
That's great Limajean. We'll be glad to have you join us. :)
I second that, limajean, and welcome to the forum!
Thanks! :]
limajean, I thought your signature line might be from Lawrence. I was thinking more of "The Fox", but now I see how it would be more likely from "The Ladybird"...I may have read that one; just not totally sure. I love all Lawrence's work. Lawrence often draws references to eyes, especially in an 'animal' sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
I had two signature lines from Lawrence before Christmas came along; most likely I will have one again - maybe something to do with winter, this time. Currently, I have a photo of Lawrence's cabin in NM on my desktop. I really like the way it looks and just to think of the great man there and writing these stories thrills me.
Yes, sun and life, I can agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
There I disagree. I think Lawrence has a hostility toward the Princess. He had a hostility toward Dorothy Brett, and I think it comes out in this story.Quote:
Well, her father built her up to think it was paramount. She learned it at a very early age. One cannot really blame her thinking. It is distorted to a degree; I think Lawrence is no condemning her but understanding her; otherwise why would he take the time in the beginning of this story to spend telling us of her early years and how she was shaped; how her thinking was formed?
This is a beautiful passage, and another example of Lawrence's ability to describe nature scenes. It is so very vivid in the description. And interesting the heavy use and reference to the color yellow in the leaves and the flowers in connection with the sun.Quote:
The peculiar spell of anger carried the Princess on, almost unconscious, for an hour or so. And by this time she was beginning to climb pretty high. Her horse walked steadily all the time. They emerged on a bare slope, and the trail wound through frail aspen stems. Here a wind swept, and some of the aspens were already bare. Others were fluttering their discs of pure, solid yellow leaves, so nearly like petals, while the slope ahead was one soft, glowing fleece of daffodil yellow; fleecy like a golden foxskin, and yellow as daffodils alive in the wind and the high mountain sun.
After I finished typing up my responses to the next section posted, I noticed your own comments on this passage Virgil. I agree that it is indeed an interesting one, and the section of The Princess going off alone is quite a loaded one.
And the use of yellow and gold comes up a lot beyond this point. I also found it interesting how The Princess is later descirbed as yearing something fleecy
This is another passage I really liked. I thought it had some interesting references.Quote:
She paused and looked back. The near great slopes were mottled with gold and the dark hue of spruce, like some unsinged eagle, and the light lay gleaming upon them. Away through the gap of the canyon she could see the pale blue of the egg-like desert, with the crumpled dark crack of the Rio Grande Canyon. And far, far off, the blue mountains like a fence of angels on the horizon.
I loved the image of the unsinged eagle and I also thought the pale blue of the egg-like desert was interesting. And I liked the play of dark coming into this scene. In contrast to above which was bright and sunny, here the darkness seems to be creeping in more.
this was another interesting one I thought.Quote:
fence of angels on the horizon
I noticed as well some of these allusions turn up later within this section. The use of pale blue, and there is something else further down that is descirbed as being egg like in shape. Though I am not sure what it is intended to mean. I found it interesting.
This seemed to be very symbolic to me. Her desire to want to look into the "inner chaos" while she is determined and assured of wishing to go off with Romero. She feels a bound and a kinship with him and yet she does not truly know what it is she wants or intends, she is at a conflict with herself. She does not truly see herself as being married to Romero and yet his demon seems to draw her own toward him.Quote:
And she just had a fixed desire to go over the brim of the mountains, to look into the inner chaos of the Rockies.
This struck me as interesting as well. Though The Princess truly had nothing to do with Miss Cummins accident, and it really was just a natural accident, reading the story, there was always a feeling as if somehow it was a planed event. The Princess did have to get Miss Cummins out of the way. Of course if she were present, then the events could not take place as they happened. She stood in the way.Quote:
Miss Cummins anyhow would have been only a discordant note
As the princess continues onward, it seems she is moving more and more into the darkness, and farther away from the light. This is a bit of foreshadow I think, as she is drawn closer to the event that is about to occur.Quote:
She rode on, and emerged at length in the lap of the summit. Beyond her was a great concave of stone and stark, dead-grey trees, where the mountain ended against the sky. But nearer was the dense black, bristling spruce, and at her feet was the lap of the summit, a flat little valley of sere grass and quiet-standing yellow aspens, the stream trickling like a thread across.
This seems to me almost like a description of Romero though it is talking about the landscape. It is one of the many ways in which the surroundings do reflect upon the characters.Quote:
The beautiful, but fierce, heavy cruel mountains, with their moments of tenderness.
Yes, it is from "The Ladybird". A line from when the Count refers to Lady Daphne as a wildcat. He does it quite frequently throughout the novella.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Interesting. You ladies are much more sensitive to the color images than I am. I never really picked up on Lawrence's use of color, even when I was hot and heavy on my thesis. There is definitely something to his use of colors in various stories and novels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Interesting. I should look at that closer.Quote:
I loved the image of the unsinged eagle and I also thought the pale blue of the egg-like desert was interesting. And I liked the play of dark coming into this scene. In contrast to above which was bright and sunny, here the darkness seems to be creeping in more.
I noticed as well some of these allusions turn up later within this section. The use of pale blue, and there is something else further down that is descirbed as being egg like in shape. Though I am not sure what it is intended to mean. I found it interesting.
Yes, I think that is one of the keys to the story, especially when she gets to the brim and looks over. It's coming soon.Quote:
This seemed to be very symbolic to me. Her desire to want to look into the "inner chaos" while she is determined and assured of wishing to go off with Romero. She feels a bound and a kinship with him and yet she does not truly know what it is she wants or intends, she is at a conflict with herself. She does not truly see herself as being married to Romero and yet his demon seems to draw her own toward him.Quote:
And she just had a fixed desire to go over the brim of the mountains, to look into the inner chaos of the Rockies.
I am kind of mortified. I could have sworn I wrote a post about the colors to Dark Muse's post and now I can't find it here. How could that be? Well, maybe I thinking of my post on the last page to you, Virgil; help me out here (confused) did you read this one #2576? I did think I remarked on the colors after Dark Muse sited the examples in her post. I liked that post very much, DM and agree with all you say.
Haha...maybe you are 'color-blind.' :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Definitely something to the use of the colors to symbolism L's ideas. I found some photos of NM around the ranch and also some stunning photos of NM on the internet. One shows a whole field of yellow and the blue mountains as L describes, also the birch or aspen trees. I will upload to Photobucket and post here later today, hopefully. I think you will find them interesting. One picture near the area which Lawrence lived shows a gap or gorge as I believe he indicated. See what you all think. You will like the photos. I have Lawrence's cabin right now as my desktop photo - interesting to think of him sitting in that cabin and writing this story.
I agree.Quote:
Yes, I think that is one of the keys to the story, especially when she gets to the brim and looks over. It's coming soon.
limajean, thanks for the information. Lady Daphne is based on a true life person, I believe. Most of L's characters are. I will look up who he based this character on. I have many reference books. Also, the one book will tell what he was doing at the time he wrote that novel. Sometimes it shows his diary or letter entries and what he was thinking at the time.Quote:
Yes, it is from "The Ladybird". A line from when the Count refers to Lady Daphne as a wildcat. He does it quite frequently throughout the novella.
No, you're not crazy. You did mention it and I did say "you ladies," trying to imply both of you. I didn't physically quote you though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Hahaha, perhaps so in a reading sort of way. :DQuote:
Haha...maybe you are 'color-blind.' :lol:
..well, I don't know...you are so busy building up those posts in your profile page....and you don't want me gaining on you;)...I thought maybe you missed my post. It was the post about the scenery descriptions in relation to color and symbolism for L.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Haha...seems to be the case....:lol:Quote:
Hahaha, perhaps so in a reading sort of way. :D
I found some good New Mexico photos. I was too tired out last night, to post these. Thought it would be interesting to see who the story was based on and where she lived in NM; where L lived and where he may have written this story...also the surrounding countryside.
Dorothy Brett's House
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...rettsHouse.jpg
About Brett and Cabin
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...BrettCabin.jpg
Dorothy Brett herself at Mabel Dodge Luhan's House
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...uhansHouse.jpg
Painting of "Lawrence" by Dorothy Brett
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...rothyBrett.gif
Another by Brett - "The Order of the Day"
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...eroftheDay.jpg
Some scenes around the surrounding areas of the Lawrence ranch and Taos, NM.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...oMountains.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...eattiCabin.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...attiCabin2.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...attiCabin3.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...Mountains8.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...Mountains2.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...MMountains.jpg
road to Lawrence's Rancharea (not sure what that structure is on the left but looks more modern)
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...eRancharea.jpg
The actual Lawrence cabin
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...n_Lawrence.jpg
As you travel north from Santa Fe
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...Fethesmoky.jpg
I found most of these on a Lawrence site so I would imagine these were the areas he wrote about and ventured into the wilderness riding his own horse, who he mentions often in his letters, etc.
I love the photos
Thanks, Dark Muse, was worth my effort. NM looks so beautiful I think I would like to move there. One can actually stay or could stay a number of years back in the cabin. I read this account of one guy and his wife staying there and they thought they felt the ghost of L...I knew you would love this story. I wish I had my scanner running; I would copy it for all to read - such an interesting night spent there. I feel his spirit is indeed in that house. It looks like a house Lawrence would take to. I had all these in a file somewhere on a zip disc or regular disc and could not find them; so I had to dig around the net and found the site again. Cool site. Glad you enjoyed them. I think it gives us a better sense now of the journey - Lawrence had a great sense of 'place'. The novel I am reading is about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Wow, great photos Janine. That was a visual aid to the story. :) I highlighted the above picutes beacuse they do emphasize the yellows that Lawrence mentions. Perhaps there isn't an symblism at all to the yellow but merely a reflection of the reality of the scene.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Virgil, I thought the same thing, when I saw the photos, about the color yellow, the bluish mountains, also; but Lawrence does emphasis these elements quite often in his description; therefore knowing something about Lawrence, I think he would take the color and observe it, but go beyond that and have it represent something deeper, if only a mood. I recall in "Lady Chatterly's Lover" she went to the woods to see the 'yellow' daffodils, behind the keeper's cottage. I believe her husband's nurse had suggested it, saying there was such a show of 'yellow' flowers there, she should see them. I know that was a prominent thing, in the story and feel it did indeed possess symbolism....she was going towards the light, the sun....as always Lawrence, himself, was seeking light and warmth throughout his life. I think he took the yellow field to mean the positive/warmth and the bluish cold mountains to mean the negative/cold...threatening aspects and forshadowing....afterall, in the dead of the cold night she is cold/shivering and lets Romero come into her bed, but then she rejects him...actually, her rejection comes in the morning, when there would be sunlight. Could the mountains represent the mystery of the man/the 'phallic mystery' in the night? Could the light represent the return to reality or reality as she knew it? Beyond that, I am not sure what they could respresent. Any ideas yourself?
This is an edit about the photos I posted: Virgil, I checked a map of NM and Taos is situated in the north; also Santa Fe is not far from Taos. This part of the state would have been the part that Lawrence was familiar with. The southern regions are more dessert and barren. The north is more mountainous and woodsy, I believe.
Is everyone lost here? Can we resume this discussion on Monday; what do you think? Hey, Virgil, Dark Muse, Quark, etc...where are you? Just checking the statis for now.
I've completely forgotten. :blush: I'll post another section today.
haha...Virgil, you always come when I call you. I thought you had forgotten. Take your time, just wanted to remind you of the thread. Monday would be fine. Let everyone have their extended holiday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
We're here, but not here. I've been checking in every once and awhile, but haven't been able to post until now. I was visiting family and friends over Christmas and New Years and couldn't find enough time to say anything substantial about the story--not that I do even when there is time, but you know what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine