Chekhov Short Story Thread

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05-26-2009, 01:49 AM
Janine

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Originally Posted by Quark

I don't see them in any of the books I have, but I'm sure I could find them online somewhere.

They sound interesting to me, too. I think I will copy your list and look online as well.

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Unless I pick up the pace, no, I probably won't. I'm okay with that, though. It's these people who joined last week and already have more posts than I do that make me feel inferior. Seriously, I think there are some who signed up a couple of months ago and have something like fifteen hundred posts! Twenty or thirty posts a day! How does that happen?

Game section. Mindless one liners in games will rack up zillions of posts quickly. That's not my style although I do participate in Shared and Three Person Haiku. You accumulate posts in there more rapidly.

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In any case, we'll have a party when this thread reaches 1000. It's so close. Maybe Virgil will give us a geode--or maybe even two geodes. No, now I'm getting greedy. I'd take just one geode.

Yes, let's do that. Hey, can we have a party in the L thread when that reaches a substantial number. I will go and check to see what we are up to now. Hahah...so it's geodes now....do you have a fondness for geodes, Quark?

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You mean 7000, right? You've already crossed 6000.

Yes, my friend pointed that out to me as well; I just never got back to correct it.

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There is some background to this story, as the story has something to do with class. Really, though, I'd like to post a long intro to indicate the official start of the thread. Nothing says start like a long post with illustrations

.

hummm..interesting...class eh? I can't wait to read your introduction and view any photos or paintings. I love how you set that up...very collegian.

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I'd like to do something like that with Chekhov. As I read biographies, it's hard to separate what Chekhov was actually like from the mythology that the biographer is trying to create. Different perspectives would help.

Exactly, I think it would greatly benefit you to do so. I have found it did with me for Lawrence's work. It fills in the missing pieces somehow. It's all like a big puzzle and the more pieces you have the better a chance of understanding the total picture.

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One thing I already notice is how different from Lawrence Chekhov is. They really seem like opposites in a lot of ways. I'll talk more about this later.

That is probably true. Wonder what Mr. Lawrence had to say about Chekhov; he wrote a lot of author commentary. He pretty much tore into Dostoyevski, although he did like one of his books, I believe, think it was "The Idiot" which I did happen to write. I think the Russians would have been too dire and sad for Lawrence but really I am not sure enough to make that statement - haven't read enough of those commentaries.

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Actually, I could procure this book for you if you wanted it. Having access to a university is a wonderful thing, and I believe mine has a copy of the book. Graduate students can check out books for over a year, too. If you want it, I could send it to you.

Thanks so much. I will let you know when. That would be great. I can send you something in return for your trouble. I have tons of CD's and books on audio. Maybe something that will add you class.

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The house is right at the start of the story so it's probably the first thing we'll talk about.

That's right. I recall that. It stands out in my memory. Can't wait now to read it and listen to my audio narration.
05-26-2009, 07:54 PM
Quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

hummm..interesting...class eh? I can't wait to read your introduction and view any photos or paintings. I love how you set that up...very collegian.

The family that the narrator is visiting belongs to a certain class, and Chekhov seems to be commenting on them as a group. It's very similar to what he does in the play Three Sisters.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Exactly, I think it would greatly benefit you to do so. I have found it did with me for Lawrence's work. It fills in the missing pieces somehow. It's all like a big puzzle and the more pieces you have the better a chance of understanding the total picture.

I don't know if I'll ever get a total picture. I'm just hoping that I can answer people's questions if they have any about the author. It's difficult not to start wondering about the writer when we know that the story came from a person with particular experiences and motivations.

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Originally Posted by Janine

That is probably true. Wonder what Mr. Lawrence had to say about Chekhov; he wrote a lot of author commentary. He pretty much tore into Dostoyevski, although he did like one of his books, I believe, think it was "The Idiot" which I did happen to write. I think the Russians would have been too dire and sad for Lawrence but really I am not sure enough to make that statement - haven't read enough of those commentaries.

Lawrence probably didn't say anything directly about Chekhov as he was only a fringe figure in the early twentieth century--Chekhov that is. Really, he didn't become very popular in England until the 40's. I think Lawrence probably would have liked Chekhov for his ambivalent attitude toward society. Like Lawrence, Chekhov didn't approve often of what was going on around him. Chekhov wasn't necessarily disapproving, but he didn't paint a particularly attractive picture of Russian society. Lawrence probably would have agreed with the depiction, and respected the writer who created it.
05-26-2009, 08:11 PM
Dr. Hill

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Sel...1528797/?itm=2

There is the book I own, in case anyone is interested :)
05-27-2009, 12:03 AM
Quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Hill

There is the book I own, in case anyone is interested :)

I was a little interested. The editors came up with an odd selection of stories. If you liked those, you probably would like a lot of Chekhov's other better-known works like "The Lady with the Dog," "The Black Monk," "About Love," "Sleepy," or "In the Ravine."
05-29-2009, 03:03 PM
Quark

Another Update

This is mostly about the translation. I've read through a few different versions of "The Trousseau" now, and I think the best one is actually on Lit Net: http://www.online-literature.com/anton_chekhov/1108/. It's an older translation by Constance Garnette--whose ubiquity in Russian to English translations is greater than Starbucks' in coffee joints or Microsoft's in computers--but her translation does give the story its best appearance. I like her longer sentences, and she seems to have a better grasp on the humor here than the other translators. I read a few other versions that gave the introductory paragraph a more poetic twist, but I think Garnette does a better job with the entire story. I know Janine was particularly struck by the opening description, so if there are reader looking for more beauty in the first paragraph I can point you to some other versions. Garnette's translation, though, I think is better in line with what the story is about.

The Lit Net version does not have notes for the French dialogue, though, so if you're curious what "Où est mon cravatte lequel mon père m'avait envoyé de Koursk?" means you may be left in the dark. I've found notes for this elsewhere, and I'll post them when we start. Or, actually, how about I just do that?

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NOTES

Où est mon cravatte lequel mon père m'avait envoyé de Koursk? : Where is my tie, the one my father sent me from Koursk?

Ah, est-ce que, Marie . . . que: Oh, is it that, Marie . . . that

Nous avons donc chez nous un homme peu connu de nous: Because we have with us a man not well known to us

we speak French: French was the primary language of Russian aristocrats; however, by Chekhov's time speaking French was considered an affectation

Dressed all in black with heavy crape pleureuses: mourning clothes

"Je suis charmée de vous revoir, monsieur: I'm charmed to see you again, sir

There--that's done now. Anyway, I'll post an introduction tomorrow to officially start the discussion, and we'll see what happens.
05-29-2009, 04:57 PM
Janine

Quark, that's very helpful. Glad you posted those translations now, before we read the story. Tell me, if I listen to the narration, is that close to the translation here on LitNet by Constance Garnett? I happen to like her translations very much. I have read her Russian novel translations and she is fine, in my book. Thanks for doing all that research. I know it takes time and we all appreciate it, I am sure.

Since, you will be posting parts of the story, I don't see any problem with listening to it being read, as a sort of aid to my reading. I will read along online, as we go along. I think I know the story well by now; listened to the narration several times. I enjoyed it.
05-29-2009, 08:05 PM
Quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

Tell me, if I listen to the narration, is that close to the translation here on LitNet by Constance Garnett?

I can't say, but I'll probably listen to the CD you gave me again. I can check and see if it's the same translation. If it isn't, it's not a big deal. The translations are all pretty similar. Translators read their predecessors it seems like, and make only a few changes. Every version I've read of this story uses the word "vouchsafed" which is a bit of a coincidence. When was last time anyone used the word "vouchsafe?" Um, yes, could you vouchsafe me some cereal for breakfast tomorrow? No? Who else could it be vouchsafed for? Doh! He vouchsafes everything!

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Originally Posted by Janine

I happen to like her translations very much. I have read her Russian novel translations and she is fine, in my book.

I don't object to her translations either. In another thread I heard someone complaining about her version of Anna Karenina, but they could just be complaining about Anna Karenina. Who wouldn't complain about the first half of that novel? Nothing happens, and it happens slowly. It really isn't until the second half that things start to get interesting. No translator, I think, could rescue the stuff about Levin's farming at the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Since, you will be posting parts of the story, I don't see any problem with listening to it being read, as a sort of aid to my reading. I will read along online, as we go along. I think I know the story well by now; listened to the narration several times. I enjoyed it.

Oh, good. It shouldn't be hard to follow along on the computer screen. The story is only few pages.
05-29-2009, 08:38 PM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quark

I can't say, but I'll probably listen to the CD you gave me again. I can check and see if it's the same translation. If it isn't, it's not a big deal. The translations are all pretty similar. Translators read their predecessors it seems like, and make only a few changes. Every version I've read of this story uses the word "vouchsafed" which is a bit of a coincidence. When was last time anyone used the word "vouchsafe?" Um, yes, could you vouchsafe me some cereal for breakfast tomorrow? No? Who else could it be vouchsafed for? Doh! He vouchsafes everything!

Oh good, then we are on the same page with this in our thinking. I just copied the story into my offline document program. I read the first part describing the house. I must say I have a very distinct impression now which I will save for later on, when we begin discussing it. I love how graphic it is and the various contrasts just within these few paragraphs. It's a great story, Quark. Glad we are discussing it.

:lol: 'vouchesafe', eh? I have heard the word in some literature and elsewhere but you are right - it is a rather older term I believe. I am not even completely sure of it's meaning. I must look that one up. You rendition of the work cracked me up as usual. Wish you had been my teacher in high school; I would laughed so much in your classroom.

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I don't object to her translations either. In another thread I heard someone complaining about her version of Anna Karenina, but they could just be complaining about Anna Karenina. Who wouldn't complain about the first half of that novel? Nothing happens, and it happens slowly. It really isn't until the second half that things start to get interesting. No translator, I think, could rescue the stuff about Levin's farming at the beginning.

Yes, I believe you are correct. It was in the Anna Karenina discussion. I read that book years back and now realise I must have read a condensed version since it was in one of my father's old books which is one author's work each - a compiling of various things he wrote -a few novels, stories, etc. I since picked up the novel, brandnew paperback, cheap at my library but it is by new translators and the complete text. In that same discussion, someone mentioned these translators and they didn't seem to care for them. I have not attempted to re-read the book yet; I have too many others that must come first. I am not sure I am too enthused now that you said the first half is a bore with Levin's farming described in detail. Oh well, I did get through sheep farming in Hardy's "Far from the Madding Crowd," and now I love that book.

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Oh, good. It shouldn't be hard to follow along on the computer screen. The story is only few pages.

That will great. I also made a short cut so the story is now on my desktop. This is what I do with the Lawrence short stories, as well.
05-29-2009, 10:39 PM
Quark

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Originally Posted by Janine

It's a great story, Quark. Glad we are discussing it.

Oh, the story is good, but I have no idea how big the "we" will be for the discussion. If it's too small, maybe we'll just switch over to Shakespeare thread.

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Originally Posted by Janine

:lol: 'vouchesafe', eh? I have heard the word in some literature and elsewhere but you are right - it is a rather older term I believe. I am not even completely sure of it's meaning.

You're right that's it's a little old-timey, but we can forgive Garnette since her translation itself is old-timey, as well. She wrote this out in the nineteen teens, I believe--something like 1913. I was just noticing that the following translations kept much of the same language as previous translations. Therefore, there really isn't that much difference between Garnette's and whatever else one might find elsewhere. After all, each of them says "vouchsafed."

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Originally Posted by Janine

It was in the Anna Karenina discussion.

Ah, now I remember.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I have not attempted to re-read the book yet; I have too many others that must come first. I am not sure I am too enthused now that you said the first half is a bore with Levin's farming described in detail. Oh well, I did get through sheep farming in Hardy's "Far from the Madding Crowd," and now I love that book.

There are some great moments in the second half of the novel that redeem it, I think. It is quite an undertaking, though.
05-29-2009, 11:13 PM
JacobF

I read "Misery" about a week ago and it was one of the most powerful short stories I've ever read, second only to Tolstoy's "How much land does a man need?" The role of Iona's horse as more noble and caring than the people Iona drives and almost like a confidant was done perfectly, and it struck me with relentless emotion at the end. It still resonates with me. Since then the only Chekhov stories I've read are Gusev (a bit on the obscure side but interesting, great overall), The Huntsman (was good, but not great), and Lady with the Dog (spectacular, almost as good as Misery). I definitely plan on reading more of Chekhov's work.
05-30-2009, 01:30 AM
Quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacobF

I read "Misery" about a week ago and it was one of the most powerful short stories I've ever read, second only to Tolstoy's "How much land does a man need?" The role of Iona's horse as more noble and caring than the people Iona drives and almost like a confidant was done perfectly, and it struck me with relentless emotion at the end. It still resonates with me.

Oh, I agree. We actually did a discussion on that story a few pages back:

http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=17728&page=9

I think there was some disagreement about what the story was about, though. Some of us thought it was more about grieving and others saw the story as a case of just loneliness. I suppose it's probably a little bit of both. I think the story is also somewhat odd in the way that it hits you so immediately. Chekhov lets us know what Iona's problem is right away--which is a little different from what he usually does. A lot of Chekhov stories work like snowballs: they start off somewhat mundanely and then slowly gather force and meaning until they reach an explosive ending. "Ward No. 6" and "Sleepy" are good examples of this. I won't spoil them if you haven't read them yet, but both stories have all the shocking twists and powerful moments close to the end. The beginnings--particularly in "Ward No. 6"--are deceptively slow and simple. The endings come somewhat as a surprise. Yet in "Misery" there isn't that gathering force like in most Chekhov fiction. Chekhov just hits you with everything right away. I don't know whether that makes it a better or a worse story--it was just something I noticed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacobF

Since then the only Chekhov stories I've read are Gusev (a bit on the obscure side but interesting, great overall), The Huntsman (was good, but not great), and Lady with the Dog (spectacular, almost as good as Misery). I definitely plan on reading more of Chekhov's work.

"Gusev" is a strange story. It's hard to know what to make of the strange images. "The Huntsman" I thought was a little boring. There are some funnier comic stories one could read. "The Lady with the Dog" was excellent, though, don't you think? Chekhov took on a huge theme--public vs. private life--and handled it with subtlety and feeling. I think that's hard to do when you're talking about something that big.

Anyway, if you want to stick around we're about to start a new discussion of Chekhov's story "The Trousseau." We have the story on Lit Net here: http://www.online-literature.com/anton_chekhov/1108/. I'm sure you would have something to say about this one.
05-30-2009, 02:53 AM
JacobF

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quark

Some of us thought it was more about grieving and others saw the story as a case of just loneliness. I suppose it's probably a little bit of both. I think the story is also somewhat odd in the way that it hits you so immediately. Chekhov lets us know what Iona's problem is right away--which is a little different from what he usually does. A lot of Chekhov stories work like snowballs: they start off somewhat mundanely and then slowly gather force and meaning until they reach an explosive ending. "Ward No. 6" and "Sleepy" are good examples of this. I won't spoil them if you haven't read them yet, but both stories have all the shocking twists and powerful moments close to the end. The beginnings--particularly in "Ward No. 6"--are deceptively slow and simple. The endings come somewhat as a surprise. Yet in "Misery" there isn't that gathering force like in most Chekhov fiction. Chekhov just hits you with everything right away. I don't know whether that makes it a better or a worse story--it was just something I noticed.

Yeah, I'd have to say both grieving and loneliness are good descriptions of "Misery." You know Iona is grieving his dead son but he brings it up so much to strangers that it almost seems like loneliness. And when he confides in his horse, you see his desperation and that ultimately was what made the story so powerful for me. I certainly noticed the jolting, sudden impact of "Misery" too. With a title like that, though, it wasn't a complete surprise, and in my opinion I think it was perfectly implemented (maybe because it followed a "short but sweet" style). Still, as you described I really like Chekhov's gathering force plots such as in Lady with the Dog because you really don't know where the story is going to end up. I'm really glad I discovered this author.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quark

Anyway, if you want to stick around we're about to start a new discussion of Chekhov's story "The Trousseau." We have the story on Lit Net here: http://www.online-literature.com/anton_chekhov/1108/. I'm sure you would have something to say about this one.

Yeah I'll definitely read it tomorrow along with "Sleepy" and "Ward No. 6" if time permits.
05-30-2009, 01:26 PM
Quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacobF

I think it was perfectly implemented (maybe because it followed a "short but sweet" style).

That's a good observation. I think you're picking up on something that's very central to Chekhov as a writer. He strove for narrative efficiency. Chekhov once commented that if a writer mentions a gun in Act I it should go off in Act II. That is, everything an author writes about should work to some end. Many writers in the Realist tradition before Chekhov included a lot of detail, ambiance, and wordiness that Chekhov wanted to dispense with, and his work was a reaction away from the nine-hundred page novels that had flooded the market in previous decades. I also think his concision may have come from his early experiences as a writer. At the beginning of his career Chekhov was only given a few pages to work with and an audience that demanded a good laugh or cry on one reading. In journals like The Dragonfly, Fragments, or The Alarm Clock he didn't have the kind of space or readers that would tolerate diffuse prose, and he had to learn concision in order to survive. In any case, I think you're right about "Misery," and I would go so far as to say that most of Chekhov's successful stories follow that "short and sweet" style.

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Originally Posted by JacobF

Still, as you described I really like Chekhov's gathering force plots such as in Lady with the Dog because you really don't know where the story is going to end up. I'm really glad I discovered this author.

To me, the endings are always the best part. I find it really hard to judge a story of his before I've read that last word because it's always those final moments which change and reinterpret everything that's come before. Some might see the endings as Chekhov trying to emotionalize or moralize his story--they might even view it as Chekhov simplifying and taking shelter from the complexities of his own story. I don't think it's emotionalism or moralizing, though. The endings are just where Chekhov exposes the theme or problem the story centers on. It's problems that Chekhov is exploring--not emotions or morals. A problem like the conflict between our private life and public persona is what drives "The Lady with the Dog." The problem of grieving in a cold, impersonal world is the center of "Misery." We react emotionally (we're sad with Iona) or we react with morality (we might castigate the narrator of "The Lady with a Dog"), but the story itself doesn't try to tell you what to feel or do. It merely explores a problem. I think that's what makes the endings so great. They're so accessible because the problems are usually something pretty universal (like public vs. private) and they give off powerful feeling and food for thought--all without being obvious.

At least, that's what I think.

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Originally Posted by JacobF

Yeah I'll definitely read it tomorrow along with "Sleepy" and "Ward No. 6" if time permits.

"Sleepy" is more "short and sweet" I would say, but "Ward No. 6" is probably more impressive. You'll probably respect "Sleepy" for being better-crafted, but find "Ward No. 6" more thought-provoking. The latter is quite a heady brew--lots of talking about philosophy, society, and the mind.

Oh, and Janine I'm almost done with the introduction for "The Trousseau." I'll post it sometime tonight.
05-30-2009, 09:36 PM
Quark

JacobF, I responded to your post above.

In accordance with the treaty that states that the "D.H. Lawrence Short Story Thread" and the "Chekhov Short Story Thread" will alternate so that neither Janine nor Quark get so tired with running a thread that they give it up entirely, I'd like to open up the discussion on "The Trousseau" with a very long sentence. I know it's a been a while since we've done a story here--and there may not be many people left from previous discussion--but I'd like to try to start this up again. That is, if anyone is interested in a new story. Janine suggested this one to me a while back, and after reading it over again I think it would make a great discussion. The story is a little on the lachrymose side, but that isn't anything we're not used to. Anyway, here's:

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...Trousseau3.jpg

Chekhov wrote "The Trousseau" (full text here: http://www.online-literature.com/anton_chekhov/1108/) early on in his career. He was only 24 when this story came out, and was still studying full-time to become a physician--as well as tutoring on the side. Chekhov wrote many of these early stories with money in mind. His father went bankrupt a couple of years before and this plunged his family deep into debt. Trying to salvage his family's property, Chekhov shopped his fiction around to popular magazines for whatever they would give him. Later, he would look back on these early works as mediocre and lacking in seriousness, and he included very few in the his short story collections. More recently, though, critics have tried bring back these earlier stories. The collection of short stories that Janine has places this story alongside "In the Ravine" (a later classic)--something Chekhov never would have done. At some point, I think we'll have to decide whether "The Trousseau" has the kind of craft and weightiness that it deserves to be included with the other classics.

The story divides very neatly into three section, as the narrator visits the house three times. The first visit takes up considerably more pages than the other two, so I probably will split it up a few times when I post it. In any case, though, the story is quite short so there won't be too may sections. I count five right now. That means we should be able to get through this one pretty quickly. I don't want to rush anyone, though, so let me know if I'm blowing through the text too rapidly. Also, since Chekhov's stories are so dependent on the conclusion, if anyone wants to bring up something that happens later in the story before we get to it as a group feel free to mention it. I know it's difficult to talk about the set up of these stories without talking about what's being set up. Also, let me know how you feel about criticism. Some people love to consult it, but others treat it as an unwelcome intrusion. If anyone's interested what critics think of the story, I can post some examples. But, if it's going to get in the way, I'll gladly omit it.

Let me also mention that there's a few other good threads out there right now for discussion. One is the Shakespeare thread where they're discussing Richard II:

http://www.online-literature.com/for...lay.php?f=8593

and Henry IV part I:

http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=43183

Another is Janine's thread on D.H. Lawrence's Tortoise poems:

http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=25671

And there's the poetry bookclub on Margaret Avison:

http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=43462

But really the Chekhov Short Story Thread is the best.
05-30-2009, 09:40 PM
Dark Muse

I will see what I can do considering my poor preformace in the D.H. Lawrence thread this time around.

I know you said the translation on this forum is the best, but can you recomend others that are decent? Becasue I don't like reading stories from the computer screen and I don't like the way the stories on this site print out.

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