:lol: I guess so. I didn't think anything else reuired a response. We've had the discussion once before on whether Frieda was good for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Printable View
:lol: I guess so. I didn't think anything else reuired a response. We've had the discussion once before on whether Frieda was good for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Oh that again:bawling:....I guess I will plead the 5th ammendment.....BUT... why do you always insist on putting the very worst photo of her on here? There are nicer ones out there, you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
That was the photo that had Dorothy Brett in it. Ok here's another. :D
http://www.theamericanmag.com/upload...FPyXinxHbr.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Well, that is an old one, too.....you know people do gain weight when they get older sometimes. Besides it looks like she is squinting from the sun. You are being mean...:mad:
I will have to go find a more attractive photo of her and post it. I have tons of them in my books, but my scanner is not working currently. It is not like any of us are toothpicks. We all do age eventually. Life wasn't easy, I imagine, living with Lawrence.
Just waiting now for Virgil, our fearless leader, to post some more text to comment on.
Heee...lo, Virgil, where are you?
I'm here. :)
Well, there's a lot here too.Quote:
Quoi faire? What was she to do? She seemed faced with absolute nothingness. Only she had Miss Cummins, who shared with her the secret, and almost the passion for her father. In fact, the Princess felt that her passion for her mad father had in some curious way transferred itself largely to Charlotte Cummins during the last years. And now Miss Cummins was the vessel that held the passion for the dead man. She herself, the Princess, was an empty vessel.
An empty vessel in the enormous warehouse of the world.
Quoi faire? What was she to do? She felt that, since she could not evaporate into nothingness, like alcohol from an unstoppered bottle, she must do something. Never before in her life had she felt the incumbency. Never, never had she felt she must do anything. That was left to the vulgar.
Now her father was dead, she found herself on the fringe of the vulgar crowd, sharing their necessity to do something. It was a little humiliating. She felt herself becoming vulgarised. At the same time she found herself looking at men with a shrewder eye: an eye to marriage. Not that she felt any sudden interest in men, or attraction towards them. No. She was still neither interested nor attracted towards men vitally. But marriage, that peculiar abstraction, had imposed a sort of spell on her. She thought that marriage, in the blank abstract, was the thing she ought to do. That marriage implied a man she also knew. She knew all the facts. But the man seemed a property of her own mind rather than a thing in himself, another thing.
Her father died in the summer, the month after her thirty-eighth birthday. When all was over, the obvious thing to do, of course, was to travel. With Miss Cummins. The two women knew each other intimately, but they were always Miss Urquhart and Miss Cummins to one another, and a certain distance was instinctively maintained. Miss Cummins, from Philadelphia, of scholastic stock, and intelligent but untravelled, four years younger than the Princess, felt herself immensely the junior of her 'lady'. She had a sort of passionate veneration for the Princess, who seemed to her ageless, timeless. She could not see the rows of tiny, dainty, exquisite shoes in the Princess's cupboard without feeling a stab at the heart, a stab of tenderness and reverence, almost of awe.
Miss Cummins also was virginal, but with a look of puzzled surprise in her brown eyes. Her skin was pale and clear, her features well modelled, but there was a certain blankness in her expression, where the Princess had an odd touch of Renaissance grandeur. Miss Cummins's voice was also hushed almost to a whisper; it was the inevitable effect of Colin Urquhart's room. But the hushedness had a hoarse quality.
The Princess did not want to go to Europe. Her face seemed turned west. Now her father was gone, she felt she would go west, westwards, as if for ever. Following, no doubt, the March of Empire, which is brought up rather short on the Pacific coast, among swarms of wallowing bathers.
No, not the Pacific coast. She would stop short of that. The South-West was less vulgar. She would go to New Mexico.
She and Miss Cummins arrived at the Rancho del Cerro Gordo towards the end of August, when the crowd was beginning to drift back east. The ranch lay by a stream on the desert some four miles from the foot of the mountains, a mile away from the Indian pueblo of San Cristobal. It was a ranch for the rich; the Princess paid thirty dollars a day for herself and Miss Cummins. But then she had a little cottage to herself, among the apple trees of the orchard, with an excellent cook. She and Miss Cummins, however, took dinner at evening in the large guest-house. For the Princess still entertained the idea of marriage.
The guests at the Rancho del Cerro Gordo were of all sorts, except the poor sort. They were practically all rich, and many were romantic. Some were charming, others were vulgar, some were movie people, quite quaint and not unattractive in their vulgarity, and many were Jews. The Princess did not care for Jews, though they were usually the most interesting to talk to. So she talked a good deal with the Jews, and painted with the artists, and rode with the young men from college, and had altogether quite a good time. And yet she felt something of a fish out of water, or a bird in the wrong forest. And marriage remained still completely in the abstract. No connecting it with any of these young men, even the nice ones.
The Princess looked just twenty-five. The freshness of her mouth, the hushed, delicate-complexioned virginity of her face gave her not a day more. Only a certain laconic look in her eyes was disconcerting. When she was forced to write her age, she put twenty-eight, making the figure two rather badly, so that it just avoided being a three.
Men hinted marriage at her. Especially boys from college suggested it from a distance. But they all failed before the look of sardonic ridicule in the Princess's eyes. It always seemed to her rather preposterous, quite ridiculous, and a tiny bit impertinent on their part.
The only man that intrigued her at all was one of the guides, a man called Romero--Domingo Romero. It was he who had sold the ranch itself to the Wilkiesons, ten years before, for two thousand dollars. He had gone away, then reappeared at the old place. For he was the son of the old Romero, the last of the Spanish family that had owned miles of land around San Cristobal. But the coming of the white man and the failure of the vast flocks of sheep, and the fatal inertia which overcomes all men, at last, on the desert near the mountains, had finished the Romero family. The last descendants were just Mexican peasants.
Domingo, the heir, had spent his two thousand dollars, and was working for white people. He was now about thirty years old, a tall, silent fellow, with a heavy closed mouth and black eyes that looked across at one almost sullenly. From behind he was handsome, with a strong, natural body, and the back of his neck very dark and well-shapen, strong with life. But his dark face was long and heavy, almost sinister, with that peculiar heavy meaninglessness in it, characteristic of the Mexicans of his own locality. They are strong, they seem healthy. They laugh and joke with one another. But their physique and their natures seem static, as if there were nowhere, nowhere at all for their energies to go, and their faces, degenerating to misshapen heaviness, seem to have no raison d'être, no radical meaning. Waiting either to die or to be aroused into passion and hope. In some of the black eyes a queer, haunting mystic quality, sombre and a bit gruesome, the skull-and-cross-bones look of the Penitentes. They had found their raison d'être in self-torture and death-worship. Unable to wrest a positive significance for themselves from the vast, beautiful, but vindictive landscape they were born into, they turned on their own selves, and worshipped death through self-torture. The mystic gloom of this showed in their eyes.
But as a rule the dark eyes of the Mexicans were heavy and half alive, sometimes hostile, sometimes kindly, often with the fatal Indian glaze on them, or the fatal Indian glint.
First, this is a Lwarence technique that he uses in many places. He'll bring a charcter to a crossroads and then he asks, Where to? What next? In this story he uses the Italian, "Quoi faire? " and then "What was she to do?" This is what she's faced with: "She seemed faced with absolute nothingness." Now this is a foreshadow of when she stares into the emptyness of the mountains. I'll post this, though we will get to it eventually:
The emptiness that she sees in the mountains is from the emptiness inside her.Quote:
In front now was nothing but mountains, ponderous, massive, down-sitting mountains, in a huge and intricate knot, empty of life or soul. Under the bristling black feathers of spruce near-by lay patches of white snow. The lifeless valleys were concaves of rock and spruce, the rounded summits and the hog-backed summits of grey rock crowded one behind the other like some monstrous herd in arrest.
Miss Cummins is also interesting, and suggestive of the repressed sexuality that Dollie has:
Ironic that the virginal woman is named Cummins, a sexual term. ;) Lawrence I think is having a little fun.Quote:
Miss Cummins also was virginal, but with a look of puzzled surprise in her brown eyes. Her skin was pale and clear, her features well modelled, but there was a certain blankness in her expression, where the Princess had an odd touch of Renaissance grandeur. Miss Cummins's voice was also hushed almost to a whisper; it was the inevitable effect of Colin Urquhart's room. But the hushedness had a hoarse quality.
Interesting how the term "vulgar" repeats here:
This just reminds me of Henry James, who felt that common people were vulgar. There is a sort of James sexual repression in Dollie.Quote:
Now her father was dead, she found herself on the fringe of the vulgar crowd, sharing their necessity to do something. It was a little humiliating. She felt herself becoming vulgarised.
And then we get Romero's background. What's striking about his background is the fatal nature of the Indians. This is another thing that Lawrence seems to repeat, the Indians of the Americas have this sense of doomed fate. Of course that plays into Romero's fate in the story. But there are positive attributes too: strong, natural, handsome. But this is his key to his character as it fits into the story:
Waiting either "to die or aroused into passion." Those words carry sexual connotatons.Quote:
But their physique and their natures seem static, as if there were nowhere, nowhere at all for their energies to go, and their faces, degenerating to misshapen heaviness, seem to have no raison d'être, no radical meaning. Waiting either to die or to be aroused into passion and hope. In some of the black eyes a queer, haunting mystic quality, sombre and a bit gruesome, the skull-and-cross-bones look of the Penitentes. They had found their raison d'être in self-torture and death-worship. Unable to wrest a positive significance for themselves from the vast, beautiful, but vindictive landscape they were born into, they turned on their own selves, and worshipped death through self-torture. The mystic gloom of this showed in their eyes.
Yeah! I whistle and you come! ;) Glad you posted more text, but wow, this is a lot to discuss all at once...I will try my best to add to your comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Definitely.Quote:
Well, there's a lot here too.
Good observation. I agree with that. The trip up the mountainside is a journey, not unlike the spiritual journey that Lawrence takes; but in this case the spiritualism is never realised. Obviously, The Princess sees the mountainside much differently because of her emptiness and her lack of insight into being a fully realised woman. She probably longed to be transformed by the experience but we know now that she is not touched by it at all, she never undergoes any form of transfiguration.Quote:
First, this is a Lwarence technique that he uses in many places. He'll bring a charcter to a crossroads and then he asks, Where to? What next? In this story he uses the Italian, "Quoi faire? " and then "What was she to do?" This is what she's faced with: "She seemed faced with absolute nothingness." Now this is a foreshadow of when she stares into the emptyness of the mountains. I'll post this, though we will get to it eventually:
True and I liked this lineQuote:
The emptiness that she sees in the mountains is from the emptiness inside her.
"An empty vessel in the enormous warehouse of the world"
That's a perfect way to describe her.
Miss Cummins seems like a whinny prude to me....sort of school marmish or something.Quote:
Miss Cummins is also interesting, and suggestive of the repressed sexuality that Dollie has:
It is? I just looked in the dictionary and can't find it. Oh, maybe one has to check an urban dictionary. I did cumin which is a parsley type plant. Guess that is not it though. Is it street slang, just curious...?:lol:Quote:
Ironic that the virginal woman is named Cummins, a sexual term. ;) Lawrence I think is having a little fun.
Yes, it reminds me of it too; reminescent of Jame's characters.Quote:
Interesting how the term "vulgar" repeats here:
This just reminds me of Henry James, who felt that common people were vulgar. There is a sort of James sexual repression in Dollie.
The fatal aspect does often crop up in Lawrence's work of that time period. One sees it come to a head in "The Plumed Serpent". I think Romero's physical description is almost interchangable with the gypsy in "The Virgil and the Gypsy"....asside from the fatalistic part about the Indians or Mexicans. Both are dark skinned and very alluring in physical aspect. In both cases, no one else has interested them and then they feel this strong animalistic attraction to the dark haired, dark skinned man of natural and strong beauty. It is definitely the old blood philosophy surfacing again.Quote:
And then we get Romero's background. What's striking about his background is the fatal nature of the Indians. This is another thing that Lawrence seems to repeat, the Indians of the Americas have this sense of doomed fate. Of course that plays into Romero's fate in the story. But there are positive attributes too: strong, natural, handsome. But this is his key to his character as it fits into the story:
Most definitely they do. Don't they refer to the dying of 'will' if true transfiguration is realised?Quote:
Waiting either "to die or aroused into passion." Those words carry sexual connotatons.
I want to add that, when we get to the descriptions of the mountain climb, I find those some of the most beautiful and awesome that Lawrence has ever written. This part really captivated me. In some sense they are rising above the world they know, and both reject; yet still The Princess cannot really rise above her ingrained ideals or isolated self, and she fails to give in to this experience on the mountaintop, which could tranform her. Hope that makes sense. When we get to that part, I will comment in more depth.
:lol: Janine, it's a play on cumming or cum. :blush: You can try googling that, but be careful what cums up. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I don't need to google it, thanks, and I won't run a search for fear of certain websites. I figured that is what you were referring to, but thought I would give it the benefit of the doubt. Well, :blush: thanks for spelling it out to me.;):lol: You are so naughty. Surprised that is not being censored. haha. What is that last part - 'no pun intented'?!:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
:lol: Yes, I should have said no pun intended, but I did intend the pun. Hey blame this on Lawrence. He knew what he was doing with the character's name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Oh I got the pun. So did he? Maybe, maybe not. Cummins is a very common name; only you would think of the connection. Ever hear of the actor Bob Cummings?... so I added a g.;) I like how you read our Lawrence's mind. Lawrence's mind was not in the gutter like yours; not so sure he would go that far with this, but you can think what you please. Lawrence hated pornogrpahy, you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I might have to be inclined with Virgil here. Remember the way in which Lawrence played with things become "aroused" in Witch al Mode" His stories are often highly sexual. And things like this are rarely coincidental when it comes to writers and artists. As you said yourself how often he rewrote his stories, it seems odd he would not be aware of the connection. Particularly considering the many other ways he uses sexual suggestion.
Well, I know they are highly sexual and charged thus...I am the odd man out here, but most likely he was ticked at whomever he based Miss Cummins on. and therefore dreamed up the name. Was it Dorothy, do you know, Virigl? Or was Cummings totally fictious? He was ticked at Brett at the time he wrote this story; he doesn't paint the Princess in too good a light. I don't think Brett appreciated this story of his. I will have to check out the Who's Who Characters book and see if it says anything about this name. Also, I have qualms about Lawrence using a slang expression, apparently cum is a street slang expression, since I looked into my big college dictionary and the word 'cum' and the definition is not what you two are saying it is. I don't know of other instances, where Lawrence used such slang words, and besides, how does that fit that particular character? She was so prudish and fussy. It actually says in this dictionary that the word means this: "with, together with, along with"...that would fit, since the two were together, Miss Cummins as a sort of chaparone to the Princess - there to protect her from Romano or an indecreptancy...ties them together also, since Miss C is so very prudish and later the Princess assumed/maintains the same 'prudish' virginal guality. If Lawrence meant it in a sexual way I think he would have been a little more subtle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I do not find the way the Princess is portrayed as being particularly negative or unflattering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
From what I read in the biographies, Brett did find it unflattering and Lawrence admitted the story was based on her. I guess you are the only one finding it flattering to her image, but that is ok. It all depends on how you view this story. I kind of come in halfway on this one. That ending, I am not sure what to make of fully yet, but so many of Lawrence's works leave me asking many more questions. I think that is what attracts me to his work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Oh Janine, haven't you read Lady Chatterly. And there are versions of Lady Chatterly called John Thomas and Lady Jane which are supposed to be slang for male and female gentalia in his day. Goodness didn't you just read The Plumed Serpent. What exactly do you think the serpent is supposed to symbolize? There is no doubt in my mind that Lawrence knew what he was implying with Miss Cummins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
But how does that apply to that character? Why of course, I read those other books and I know the slang well, etc. I am the one with the films and they aren't tame either. I just feel this name thing is stretching it a bit in this particular story. Why not drop this now and just move on. It's totally unimportant really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Here's the next section.
Well, we get more of Romero's character here. I think this elaborates on what I highlighted in the last section:Quote:
Domingo Romero was almost a typical Mexican to look at, with the typical heavy, dark, long face, clean-shaven, with an almost brutally heavy mouth. His eyes were black and Indian-looking. Only, at the centre of their hopelessness was a spark of pride, or self-confidence, or dauntlessness. Just a spark in the midst of the blackness of static despair.
But this spark was the difference between him and the mass of men. It gave a certain alert sensitiveness to his bearing and a certain beauty to his appearance. He wore a low-crowned black hat, instead of the ponderous headgear of the usual Mexican, and his clothes were thinnish and graceful. Silent, aloof, almost imperceptible in the landscape, he was an admirable guide, with a startling quick intelligence that anticipated difficulties about to rise. He could cook, too, crouching over the camp-fire and moving his lean deft brown hands. The only fault he had was that he was not forthcoming, he wasn't chatty and cosy.
"Oh, don't send Romero with us," the Jews would say. "One can't get any response from him."
Tourists come and go, but they rarely see anything, inwardly. None of them ever saw the spark at the middle of Romero's eye; they were not alive enough to see it.
The Princess caught it one day, when she had him for a guide. She was fishing for trout in the canyon, Miss Cummins was reading a book, the horses were tied under the trees, Romero was fixing a proper fly on her line. He fixed the fly and handed her the line, looking up at her. And at that moment she caught the spark in his eye. And instantly she knew that he was a gentleman, that his 'demon', as her father would have said, was a fine demon. And instantly her manner towards him changed.
He had perched her on a rock over a quiet pool, beyond the cotton-wood trees. It was early September, and the canyon already cool, but the leaves of the cottonwoods were still green. The Princess stood on her rock, a small but perfectly-formed figure, wearing a soft, close grey sweater and neatly-cut grey riding-breeches, with tall black boots, her fluffy brown hair straggling from under a little grey felt hat. A woman? Not quite. A changeling of some sort, perched in outline there on the rock, in the bristling wild canyon. She knew perfectly well how to handle a line. Her father had made a fisherman of her.
Romero, in a black shirt and with loose black trousers pushed into wide black riding-boots, was fishing a little farther down. He had put his hat on a rock behind him; his dark head was bent a little forward, watching the water. He had caught three trout. From time to time he glanced up-stream at the Princess, perched there so daintily. He saw she had caught nothing.
Soon he quietly drew in his line and came up to her. His keen eye watched her line, watched her position. Then, quietly, he suggested certain changes to her, putting his sensitive brown hand before her. And he withdrew a little, and stood in silence, leaning against a tree, watching her. He was helping her across the distance. She knew it, and thrilled. And in a moment she had a bite. In two minutes she landed a good trout. She looked round at him quickly, her eyes sparkling, the colour heightened in her cheeks. And as she met his eyes a smile of greeting went over his dark face, very sudden, with an odd sweetness.
She knew he was helping her. And she felt in his presence a subtle, insidious male kindliness she had never known before waiting upon her. Her cheek flushed, and her blue eyes darkened.
After this, she always looked for him, and for that curious dark beam of a man's kindliness which he could give her, as it were, from his chest, from his heart. It was something she had never known before.
A vague, unspoken intimacy grew up between them. She liked his voice, his appearance, his presence. His natural language was Spanish; he spoke English like a foreign language, rather slow, with a slight hesitation, but with a sad, plangent sonority lingering over from his Spanish. There was a certain subtle correctness in his appearance; he was always perfectly shaved; his hair was thick and rather long on top, but always carefully groomed behind. And his fine black cashmere shirt, his wide leather belt, his well-cut, wide black trousers going into the embroidered cowboy boots had a certain inextinguishable elegance. He wore no silver rings or buckles. Only his boots were embroidered and decorated at the top with an inlay of white suède. He seemed elegant, slender, yet he was very strong.
And at the same time, curiously, he gave her the feeling that death was not far from him. Perhaps he too was half in love with death. However that may be, the sense she had that death was not far from him made him 'possible' to her.
Small as she was, she was quite a good horsewoman. They gave her at the ranch a sorrel mare, very lovely in colour, and well-made, with a powerful broad neck and the hollow back that betokens a swift runner. Tansy, she was called. Her only fault was the usual mare's failing, she was inclined to be hysterical.
So that every day the Princess set off with Miss Cummins and Romero, on horseback, riding into the mountains. Once they went camping for several days, with two more friends in the party.
"I think I like it better," the Princess said to Romero, "when we three go alone."
And he gave her one of his quick, transfiguring smiles.
It was curious no white man had ever showed her this capacity for subtle gentleness, this power to help her in silence across a distance, if she were fishing without success, or tired of her horse, or if Tansy suddenly got scared. It was as if Romero could send her from his heart a dark beam of succour and sustaining. She had never known this before, and it was very thrilling.
Then the smile that suddenly creased his dark face, showing the strong white teeth. It creased his face almost into a savage grotesque. And at the same time there was in it something so warm, such a dark flame of kindliness for her, she was elated into her true Princess self.
Then that vivid, latent spark in his eye, which she had seen, and which she knew he was aware she had seen. It made an inter-recognition between them, silent and delicate. Here he was delicate as a woman in this subtle inter-recognition.
And yet his presence only put to flight in her the idée fixe of 'marriage'. For some reason, in her strange little brain, the idea of marrying him could not enter. Not for any definite reason. He was in himself a gentleman, and she had plenty of money for two. There was no actual obstacle. Nor was she conventional.
No, now she came down to it, it was as if their two 'dæmons' could marry, were perhaps married. Only their two selves, Miss Urquhart and Señor Domingo Romero, were for some reason incompatible. There was a peculiar subtle intimacy of inter-recognition between them. But she did not see in the least how it would lead to marriage. Almost she could more easily marry one of the nice boys from Harvard or Yale.
This combnation of confidence and despair sets up the climax of the story.Quote:
Only, at the centre of their hopelessness was a spark of pride, or self-confidence, or dauntlessness. Just a spark in the midst of the blackness of static despair.
And Dollie catches the spark in his eye:
I find this notion of a "demon" very interesting. What exactly does Lawrence mean? Certainly Romero becomes a sort of demon at the end of the story. And Dollie's father has that demon in him. It's almost as if it's a spirit, a wld spirit that the person doesn't have control over. Does Dollie have a demon in her? I guess so since their demons were supposed to have married. Very strange notion.Quote:
The Princess caught it one day, when she had him for a guide. She was fishing for trout in the canyon, Miss Cummins was reading a book, the horses were tied under the trees, Romero was fixing a proper fly on her line. He fixed the fly and handed her the line, looking up at her. And at that moment she caught the spark in his eye. And instantly she knew that he was a gentleman, that his 'demon', as her father would have said, was a fine demon. And instantly her manner towards him changed.
And of course this is important.
Their interaction in nature has stirred a sexual response in her. And notice the very next paragraph:Quote:
She knew he was helping her. And she felt in his presence a subtle, insidious male kindliness she had never known before waiting upon her. Her cheek flushed, and her blue eyes darkened.
She has become a follower, tamed by the maleness that Romero projects. Interesting Lawrence uses the metaphor of a "curious dark beam" for the power. I think in The Plumed Serpent he uses the term "dark column." And tink both terms suggest a phallus, the phallic power I mentioned earlier.Quote:
After this, she always looked for him, and for that curious dark beam of a man's kindliness which he could give her, as it were, from his chest, from his heart. It was something she had never known before.
This is so much like Lawrence's view of the Mexicans in "The Plumed Serpent" and in that novel he often gets repetitious with his observing/describing them and their attitude. He seems to either like the dark aspects of these people, or a brighter light he sees on the horizon for them...actually, I will look it up, but I think at one time Kate observes Ciprano as a tower of light. Lawrence seems here to see a sort of 'demon' in them, also. But to L, the 'demon' was not a bad thing. He rather revered it. If you recall in the film "Coming Through" when he asked advice from the Hopkins, Mrs. Hopkins asked 'have you asked your demon? ' This was referring to his situation with Frieda, and what steps he should take next; he replied he had asked the demon and 'he has recommended crucifixion'. That was biographical; I read it in several of my biographies. He also mentions this demon in many a letter he wrote, even as far back as those early years. When younger he once saw a production with Sarah Bernhardt and ran out of the threater terrified; yet he spoke of her performance as wonderful, even beautiful and 'that all her demons were pouring forth'. I have read several accounts of this experience, he seemed to be highly impressed with that experience and it seemed key for him in later years in his writing. Lawrence also saw God in the darker light. He did not have anytime for the tame God, as seen that way by the majority, but rather wanted the mysterious dark God, even the wrathful God we see in the Old Testment. I think in this story and TPS, which this story leads up to, this idea of the demon is very prevalent and major and it relates back to his father and to the blood-consciousness. He also abhored the dead Christ on the crucifixes in Mexico and the sad devotion people had to those iconic images. He wanted the breathing alive Christ of the flesh and blood and he wanted that he be the resurrected Christ, not the morbid still dead bleeding horrid image of the Christ on the cross, so prevalent and popular in the Mexican culture.Quote:
Domingo Romero was almost a typical Mexican to look at, with the typical heavy, dark, long face, clean-shaven, with an almost brutally heavy mouth. His eyes were black and Indian-looking. Only, at the centre of their hopelessness was a spark of pride, or self-confidence, or dauntlessness. Just a spark in the midst of the blackness of static despair.
This is just one aspect of this story. I will try and comment more later on about what other things you wrote in this last post, Virgil. Pretty much I agree with all you say and can maybe expand on some of your thoughts here.
I think also what I said above also addresses your question on the demon, here:
I think that Romero doesn't become the demon, I rather think he had this dark element in his nature all along. It is just that it fully surfaces towards the end. It takes his utmost frustration with The Princess to bring it out full-blown. True that Dollie's father also has that 'demon' aspect within him his makeup and he knows it. Doesn't he mention that he and his daugther have it? I will review the text. It is as though this demon is a wild spirit or a natural spirit unleased in this story at the end. His animal instincts take over. Lawrence probably saw this demon as a sort of 'holy ghost' as well. I definitely think Dollie had the demon as well. In Lawrence's eyes all people possessed a sort of demon; few recognised it; most supressed it. It is a strange notion but demon is not that new an idea. Doesn't this idea occur all throughout literature. In Hamlet surely he was possessed by a personal demon that surfaces and drive him on. In Hesse works he mentions the 'demon' often and it is key to some of much of work. I think any piece of literature that delves into the subconsious aspects of the characters display the demon idea. Isn't it the darker side of man, in essense. I believe that Lawrence believed one must see both sides for the person to be considered whole. For a conventional person, yes, this is a very odd notion, but is it? If one compared the Old and New Testment of the Bible, one can clearly see the darkness and the light and they make up the whole.Quote:
I find this notion of a "demon" very interesting. What exactly does Lawrence mean? Certainly Romero becomes a sort of demon at the end of the story. And Dollie's father has that demon in him. It's almost as if it's a spirit, a wld spirit that the person doesn't have control over. Does Dollie have a demon in her? I guess so since their demons were supposed to have married. Very strange notion.
Hey just to let you know, I haven't dissapared upon you, but this week I probably will not really be around very much. Next week I will most likely be able to once more rejoin the discussion.
That is ok, Dark Muse. Yeah, this week is kind of bad for me too with the holiday and everything. Hope you have a great Thanksgiving!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Excellent post Janine!!! I fully agree with everything you say. I do think demon was a positive trait for L, but it's sort of stange that Dollie has one too, though she seems to lack any blood consciouness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
That's alright. Why don't we wait until after thanksgiving for the next section.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Thanks Virgil, that was complimentary...appreciate that. Somehow my thoughts all seemed to come together today; but I am not done with your long post or the long segment of text that you posted. I would like to take that paragraph by paragraph and comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
About her demon - my response would have to be 'not really'. I believe that Lawrence believed that we all possessed the 'demon'. Just because she cannot connect with it' or the blood consciousness, doesn't mean she does not have the potential to. Unfortunately, in this case she did not embrass it and there is the whole gist of the story. In Lawrence's eyes this was a deficiency in The Princess, not the fact she did not have the demon, but that she could not get intouch with it and realise it - thus experience a 'transfiguration'. As you know 'transfiguration' was all to Lawrence. Just look back to the other stories we read - one comes to mind prominently - 'The Horse-Dealer's Daughter' - that was a case of the woman giving up her will to the man and the two of then experinced this transfiguration. I am not saying this is my idea of one, the will of the woman being reliquished but it was the way Lawrence saw it. He was Adam and he expected Eve to comply and give in to his will. Some might reduce this to the word 'furfillment', and it is that, too, but I think that Lawrence felt it was much more than furfillment - he felt it embraced the great mystery in the union of man and woman. This is the essense of Lawrence, always present in all of his work. Lawrence's sense of 'transfiguration' is as a religious experience, such as being filled with the Holy Ghost. He mentions this quite a bit in "The Plumed Serpent". The two go away quite transformed from the experience. In this stories case , The Princess comes away untouched and uneffected and her virginity is said to be intact; spiritually it is still intact.
Good idea. Guess what? I am actually cooking a turkey tomorrow - a fresh one was available at our local grocery onsale. Just a 10lb one. I will work on the stuffing tonight and then we will have candied sweets and a few other nice easy things tomorrow - it will be great, even though it will only be my mom and I.Quote:
That's alright. Why don't we wait until after thanksgiving for the next section.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...heLiterary.jpg
I hope you don't think I look like this woman! hahaha :lol:
Yes perfectly said!! You are on the ball today. What happened? :p It must be because you're feeling better. Good to hear. Good luck with the turkey. We'll be going to my mother's and we've got an 18+ pound bird. That's huge and there will only be five of us. Plenty of left overs. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
haha...that is the furthest from the truth. I am not feeling as good, as yesterday; so it must be the extra drugs I took for pain, etc. One of them actually does make me more attentive and focused - odd isn't it? I am slowly becoming a druggie, but I seem to be more clear headed - very odd...:confused: No wonder all those authors were drunkards or on something. This pain pill seems to make me smarter or maybe it just appears that way. I can BS better when uninhibited.:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Wow, an 18 pounder! I love the left-overs; turkey sandwiches, soup, etc . Well, no doubt we will have them too, so I am not complaining. My sister can eat the dark meat; she likes that best; maybe I can even make turkey soup, I love that. I have the stuff here to make it, too. We will have my chive stuffing - I grew those chives myself and froze them. It is delicious in the stuffing - try it sometime. Chives is a cinch to grow, requires very little care. Even neglecting it won't kill it.
Well, enjoy your day and eat whatever you feel like eatting and have some red wine, too...or is it white, with turkey? We are having pumpkin pie, but not homemade....still it looks rather yummy. I love pumpkin pie, don't you? It is my son's all-time favorite.
I guess you are all waiting for me...I will work on this later tonight. I think I had a few more comments on that segment of text that you posted, Virgil. I am pretty busy today, other than computer, but will try and concentrate and fit it in. I will take it from the last paragraphs I commented on. You liked those. Let's hope I can think as well today. My attention span has been kind of limited lately, but I will give it my best effort.
I just haven't got around to comitting yet. I was hoping to get to do so sometime today or this evening
Oh good, glad to see you back, Dark Muse. I can see you have been busy with your Poe group. That one really does look interesting. I wish there were more hours in the day. I would love to explore Poe's works but I still haven't gotten around to it and he has been on my list for years. I know my father adored his writing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
The notion of the demon is an interesting and rather strange one. According to the speach that her father gave everyone has a demon, yet in someway it seems that her and her fahter's demons are stronger then that of other people. It is her demon that makes her the last princess. It also seems as if they are the only ones who are truly aware of thier demons. Whiles others are oblivious to this thing that is a part of them and did not understand it is this demon that is the reason why they act the way they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Just what the demon is, is hard to put a finger on. It seems almost like the soul, or the essence of a person, the core of thier being, the thing which is why people are the way they are. But it also seems to suggest people cannot help who and what they are, or the things they do, becasue the demon is in complete control, and I think it said within the fathers speach that people cannot help the way thier demons are, or something to that effect.
Dark Muse, I think we can explore this idea of 'demon' from Lawrence's point of view, even futher. I will try to find some references to it, in his letters, I have several volumes here I can refer to. This might shed some light on just what Lawrence means by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
It is a good observation, on your part to delve into it, and see that father and daughter both possess it strongly, but also do other people - in fact, I think all people could be said to have the potential for this, but few develop it or recognise it. I will see what I can come up with later tonight and get back to you tomorrow. This idea is quite central to the theme of this story and of others by L.
Ok, we seem to be at a standstill here. I decided to drop the demon questions right now and address that issue at near the end of the story. I didn't get a chance to look up those letters yet and this seems to be going nowhere, so I will attempt to address these paragraphs. Hey, Virgil, you kind of posted too much text at one time. I find I get overwhelmed with that much to discuss. I know this is a long story so I think it will run through to January - maybe longer. Perhaps we should have made it a few months.
So here we see a very vivid description of Romero. The Princess percieves a 'spark' there...interesting word to use....sparks can ignite dynamite; also a spark can start a fire and fire and light are always significant to Lawrence. Romero has a "certain alert sensitiveness to his bearing", this is so animalistic - as animals are aware of their surroundings and any little sound of danger, so it is with Romero. He dresses more dapper and graceful than the typical Mexican. He is "thinnish and graceful". He is "silent, aloof and almost impreceptible in the landscape" - that too, seems to me to describe an animal, such as a graceful deer or panther. He is one with the landscape; therefore this is so intune with Lawrence's ideas of 'blood consciousness' and the ties of humans to nature and animals. Even his "startling quick intelligence" reminds me of the cunning of certain animals - the wolf comes to mind and I think also of Lawrence well known short book - "The Fox." The last part - about the "lean deft brown hands" recalls me to the book about the gypsy - he would be described like this. In fact in "The Virgin and the Gypsy" his hands are actually emphasised in a kind of cleansing routine. Like the gypsy, Romero is quiet and within himself and not "forthcoming, chatty or cossy."Quote:
But this spark was the difference between him and the mass of men. It gave a certain alert sensitiveness to his bearing and a certain beauty to his appearance. He wore a low-crowned black hat, instead of the ponderous headgear of the usual Mexican, and his clothes were thinnish and graceful. Silent, aloof, almost imperceptible in the landscape, he was an admirable guide, with a startling quick intelligence that anticipated difficulties about to rise. He could cook, too, crouching over the camp-fire and moving his lean deft brown hands. The only fault he had was that he was not forthcoming, he wasn't chatty and cosy.
Another indication that Romero is not much of a conversationalist. I think this would also refer to the Jews as being more chatty and intellectual in nature, but I am not sure. Jews were not always looked on favorably by the English back then.Quote:
"Oh, don't send Romero with us," the Jews would say. "One can't get any response from him."
The 'spark' again and the fact that the tourists were not alive enough to perceive it. Only The Princess detects this spark. Interesting parellel here again with "The Virgin and The Gypsy". The people around the woman protaganist - none could see what she sees. Same as with this story. It is all in the perception.Quote:
Tourists come and go, but they rarely see anything, inwardly. None of them ever saw the spark at the middle of Romero's eye; they were not alive enough to see it.
It sounds like a movie doesn't it? haha...Quote:
The Princess caught it one day, when she had him for a guide. She was fishing for trout in the canyon, Miss Cummins was reading a book, the horses were tied under the trees, Romero was fixing a proper fly on her line. He fixed the fly and handed her the line, looking up at her. And at that moment she caught the spark in his eye. And instantly she knew that he was aAnd instantly her manner towards him changed.Quote:
gentleman, that his 'demon', as her father would have said, was a fine demon.
Again, pretty specific about the 'demon' and one can see that she does not percieve that a demon is a bad thing, but a good thing...her father instilled this idea in her...."a fine demon"....therefore she see Romero in this light at this part of the story.
Wow, I was able to get into lit net today. Whoo-hooo!
I thought you wanted me to move faster. :lol: Ok, we'll slow down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Janine, this is an excellent find, something I had never picked up. To characterize Romero as "animalistic" is very important to the story. The reason Dollie gives for going on her adventure that leads to the climax is that she wanted to see the wild animals in their environment. I don't have the eact quote but i will certainly highlight it when we get to it. The fact that she can't see Romero's inherent animalism is a statement in itself. She doesn't really want to see the wild animals in their reality; she wants to see a romanitcized version of the wild animals.Quote:
So here we see a very vivid description of Romero. The Princess percieves a 'spark' there...interesting word to use....sparks can ignite dynamite; also a spark can start a fire and fire and light are always significant to Lawrence. Romero has a "certain alert sensitiveness to his bearing", this is so animalistic - as animals are aware of their surroundings and any little sound of danger, so it is with Romero.
Very good thoughts.Quote:
He dresses more dapper and graceful than the typical Mexican. He is "thinnish and graceful". He is "silent, aloof and almost impreceptible in the landscape" - that too, seems to me to describe an animal, such as a graceful deer or panther. He is one with the landscape; therefore this is so intune with Lawrence's ideas of 'blood consciousness' and the ties of humans to nature and animals. Even his "startling quick intelligence" reminds me of the cunning of certain animals - the wolf comes to mind and I think also of Lawrence well known short book - "The Fox." The last part - about the "lean deft brown hands" recalls me to the book about the gypsy - he would be described like this. In fact in "The Virgin and the Gypsy" his hands are actually emphasised in a kind of cleansing routine. Like the gypsy, Romero is quiet and within himself and not "forthcoming, chatty or cossy."
Yes, Dollie has a romanticized perception.Quote:
Another indication that Romero is not much of a conversationalist. I think this would also refer to the Jews as being more chatty and intellectual in nature, but I am not sure. Jews were not always looked on favorably by the English back then.
The 'spark' again and the fact that the tourists were not alive enough to perceive it. Only The Princess detects this spark. Interesting parellel here again with "The Virgin and The Gypsy". The people around the woman protaganist - none could see what she sees. Same as with this story. It is all in the perception.
Yes, that demon is a rather amorphous concept of Lawrence. I'm not sure exactly what to make of it.Quote:
Again, pretty specific about the 'demon' and one can see that she does not percieve that a demon is a bad thing, but a good thing...her father instilled this idea in her...."a fine demon"....therefore she see Romero in this light at this part of the story.
Cool, :Dare you on now? I hope you be careful though. It might be nothing but you can't be sure. You really should wait till nightime to post. More happens at night here anyway...lots of night-owls like me!;):lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
No, not really, remember when I asked you, if we did this 'longish' story, if you could post segments that would not overwhelm me? I think when I saw that last chunk of text, I moaned and then quickly departed and put off answering it - I get overwhelmed when you throw too much at me at once. My feeble brain just works that way. I am more detailed minded and have to work by stages - it has always been that way with me - maybe I have a little bit of attention deficit; I can work in a perimeter only if I keep it organised - jumping around from beginning to end and then to middle is just not possible for me. I have to build my concept of the story starting from the first parts of text. Can you understand this? That is why I limited myself last night and before to only a few of the text paragraphs - then I could zero in and really see what was going on. That way I can post and appear brilliant....just kidding with you...I'm a little more humble than that. Literature does not actually come easy to me, Virgil, remember I am an artist first in my soul and I think actually this is why I am drawn to authors like Hardy and Lawrence - because they both were artistic and they both use words like paint - very visual authors indeed. I have to look at their canvas and see the individual words and they are like brush strokes and they add up eventually to the entire painting - the story and the concept. See what I am driving at?Quote:
I thought you wanted me to move faster. :lol: Ok, we'll slow down.
This is true but don't you think that she saw the wild animal qualities in Romero; she definitely, perhaps subconsciously, wants to get him alone. Then she does and is terrified actually - still the magnetism is there, drawing her upward into the mountains - she does feel desire but then she turns it off at some point....it is true she wants it to be romanticized - definitely!Quote:
Janine, this is an excellent find, something I had never picked up. To characterize Romero as "animalistic" is very important to the story. The reason Dollie gives for going on her adventure that leads to the climax is that she wanted to see the wild animals in their environment. I don't have the eact quote but i will certainly highlight it when we get to it. The fact that she can't see Romero's inherent animalism is a statement in itself. She doesn't really want to see the wild animals in their reality; she wants to see a romanitcized version of the wild animals.
Good, we are on the same page with this one.Quote:
Very good thoughts.
This is true; hey, I think most woman are romantists, don't you? I don't see that Romera would be the type to entertain her whims of romantism....he is not the 'wine and dinner' type. He is more the natural man - no fuss, but so connected to the environment and sensual in his own way. In actuality I do find that quality romantic and sometimes an aloof man can really turn a woman on - don't know if it is the challenge of it or what. There is something internal that is like a spark indeed and a brillance that only some can percieve. I don't know exactly what Dollie wanted from him but I do think she wanted the whole package - she was intrigued by his animalistic allure and yet she also wanted the refinement and the communication. Romero can only provide the one and not all for her. I think this also is key to the outcome. As soon as his 'animal' takes over she is blind to the spark, she is immediately turned off and finds him repulsive. The fact that this early passage describes him as not like other Mexican's indicates to me that she saw him differently or perceived more refinement there than actually was. It is hard to say, Romero may have been a mix also, but his animalistic, sensual instincts take over...much like in other stories - such as "The Fox" and "The Virgin and the Gypsy". But in this tale the man is up against the opposition with the rejection at the end; this makes him totally go animalistic. He may have been softer if she has connected with him - more like Rupert in WIL, but the rejection of his manhood send him off on a path of utter destruction. His manhood and the phallis are insulted.Quote:
Yes, Dollie has a romanticized perception.
I still need to refer to the letters for more direct references from Lawrence on his ideas of the demom. If you recall, in the film about Lawrence - "Coming Through", he speaks directly about this 'demon' several times, his own and others. I will look for the segments on Youtube. I know there are a few now; I requested the poem "Violets" and one person has a lot of Lawrence stuff, so they put up the video for me; very nice of them. I know the one about the school poem is on there, which leads into the group session and someone does refer his 'demon' in that scene, I believe. Then there is the one where he mentions the demon, when talking to his best friends, the Hopkins, about Freida. I will find those and send them to you or post here - they shed light on the idea, I believe. He also spoke of Sarah Bernhardt with 'all her demons pouring forth'....forget the rest of the line, but I know where to find the video of that, also....and it will explain it better to you. Lawrence saw 'demons' not as devils, I think, but as the darker side of man and necessary for the whole furfillment of self. It was his philosophy....it is hard to explain, unless you have more knowledge of Lawrence, which you do indeed and so do I. I guess for Dark Muse, she could relate this to Poe and the 'dark side' he exhibits in so much of his work, which makes the 'light' even brighter and more illuminating, when one does perceive it; although Lawrence is more 'even' than Poe in my mind, more 'balanced' in the idea or concept of man possessing two distinct sides of the coin - sort of like the 'ying-yang' concept. Do you know what I mean? 'demon' is not the devil per ce, but more like God possessing both the light and the darkness - thus man being fashioned after God's image also possessiong both - light and the darkness of his true nature.Quote:
Yes, that demon is a rather amorphous concept of Lawrence. I'm not sure exactly what to make of it.
That sort of falls in line with my own personal philosophy, as well the idea of the balance and the equal importance of darkness to light is a part of my beliefs and that sort of relates to my own personal relationship with the "dark." I believe everyone does have a dark half, and that it should not necessarily be completely shunned but should be embraced as a part of what makes a person who they are. It does not mean a person must be evil or bad, but they should accept both sides of themselves instead of trying to oppress it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Exactly! and that is just what Lawrence believed; at least this is how I read him. I knew somehow instinctively, you would get the concept and relate to it. Probably why you have become such an ardent Lawrence commentor here. When you read "Women in Love" and you will see more of this concept spelled out. "The Fox" is not long; and there too, you can see this idea. I just read "The Virgin and the Gypsy", also a short book, and that will show you the way Lawrence thought, especially when the concept is realised....the transfiguration is realised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Ok, I am editing this: wished to add the links to the film. I use the films as added tools to study Lawrence; this one was taken from good research resources and the film concentrates on the poetry from that time in L's young life; these concepts that follow him all throughout his life and are developed later, are evident here.
This one is a good one, about half way through he tells about the Sarah Bernhardt experience - this is true. I read this account in two biographies. In fact, the real event actually did terrify Lawrence so profoundly that he had to leave the theater. This is in his early life, but obviously the 'demon' concept is one he explores later, in great depth.
A very young Kenneth Branagh plays young Bert (Lawrence) in "Coming Through",
screenplay by Alan Platter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJbJL...FD666B&index=2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpINm...FD666B&index=1
These also will give you some bit of insight into the notion of his 'demon' - about
half through this second video, he consults his friends about Frieda and the wife mentions his 'demon' ...his reply is interesting, so is the discussion between the three.
I love the part about the Michelangleo sculptures, 'naked and vulnerable' and 'beautiful.' I read this part in a letter of Lawrence's, as well, so it is true; at least, that he thought this and stated it.
Be sure and see all of the video - the poem, he recites in the rain, is so beautiful - one of my favorites. I love the part of the scene, when he is consulting with his married friends. It feels so authentic to Lawrence, with his many conflicts. Branagh did a good job portraying young Bert, he must have lost weight for the role, he is quite thin here.
Enjoy these. I requested, of the person posting these, the other one I was thinking of, which follows a poem he wrote about 'teaching and schools'. At least I think 'demon' is mentioned there, too.
Well, I haven't been able to get on since. :( I don't understand why sometimes yes and sometimes no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I guess. Ok.Quote:
No, not really, remember when I asked you, if we did this 'longish' story, if you could post segments that would not overwhelm me? I think when I saw that last chunk of text, I moaned and then quickly departed and put off answering it - I get overwhelmed when you throw too much at me at once. My feeble brain just works that way. I am more detailed minded and have to work by stages - it has always been that way with me - maybe I have a little bit of attention deficit; I can work in a perimeter only if I keep it organised - jumping around from beginning to end and then to middle is just not possible for me. I have to build my concept of the story starting from the first parts of text. Can you understand this? That is why I limited myself last night and before to only a few of the text paragraphs - then I could zero in and really see what was going on.
Yes. But you do a good job of understanding literature.Quote:
That way I can post and appear brilliant....just kidding with you...I'm a little more humble than that. Literature does not actually come easy to me, Virgil, remember I am an artist first in my soul and I think actually this is why I am drawn to authors like Hardy and Lawrence - because they both were artistic and they both use words like paint - very visual authors indeed. I have to look at their canvas and see the individual words and they are like brush strokes and they add up eventually to the entire painting - the story and the concept. See what I am driving at?
True, she does. But perhaps she only wants to see the wild animal in Romero. I don't think she fully comprehends what it means to experience the wild.Quote:
This is true but don't you think that she saw the wild animal qualities in Romero; she definitely, perhaps subconsciously, wants to get him alone. Then she does and is terrified actually - still the magnetism is there, drawing her upward into the mountains - she does feel desire but then she turns it off at some point....it is true she wants it to be romanticized - definitely!
:lol: No I can't see him in a candle lit French restaurant with a glass of Bordeaux. :DQuote:
This is true; hey, I think most woman are romantists, don't you? I don't see that Romera would be the type to entertain her whims of romantism....he is not the 'wine and dinner' type.
Perhaps she did. And under regular circumstances, perhaps Romero could have given the refinement and communication. Perhaps the wilderness changes him, or opens upa part of him that was kept closed. We'll have to see later.Quote:
He is more the natural man - no fuss, but so connected to the environment and sensual in his own way. In actuality I do find that quality romantic and sometimes an aloof man can really turn a woman on - don't know if it is the challenge of it or what. There is something internal that is like a spark indeed and a brillance that only some can percieve. I don't know exactly what Dollie wanted from him but I do think she wanted the whole package - she was intrigued by his animalistic allure and yet she also wanted the refinement and the communication.
Yes I agree, but also see my comment on the paragraph above.Quote:
Romero can only provide the one and not all for her. I think this also is key to the outcome. As soon as his 'animal' takes over she is blind to the spark, she is immediately turned off and finds him repulsive. The fact that this early passage describes him as not like other Mexican's indicates to me that she saw him differently or perceived more refinement there than actually was. It is hard to say, Romero may have been a mix also, but his animalistic, sensual instincts take over...much like in other stories - such as "The Fox" and "The Virgin and the Gypsy". But in this tale the man is up against the opposition with the rejection at the end; this makes him totally go animalistic. He may have been softer if she has connected with him - more like Rupert in WIL, but the rejection of his manhood send him off on a path of utter destruction. His manhood and the phallis are insulted.
Lawrence would agree with that Muse. That is very Lawrentian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Perhaps Lawrence just had a bit of an inner Pagan hahahaha :D
Oh yes he did. The older he got the more pagan he became. I will have to direct you to his pagan work. I think that demon, whatever he meant by it, was an attempt to associate with a pagan element.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Have either of you watched the Youtube clips I provided? It will only take a few minutes to view. They are both short excerpts. I think it gives some insight into the 'demon', which to Lawrence was not a bad thing at all, more a freeing from society's rules and embrassing the deeper/darker element in the makeup of the individual.
Anyway, could one of you actually define 'pagan'? I am vague on it's actual meaning.