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Did anyone else notice just how often the word shadow is mentioned in this story? I will try and post some of the passages and underline the words, later on tonight. I still have not totally re-read the story; I had planned it last night and then got side-tracked while researching this story and was reading Lawrence's early letters - how fascinating they are.
I think the various uses of 'shadow' in this story is quite significant.
Yep, used so many times when she makes her way to the rose garden. The shadow of her sunshade, a shadow crossing her. An omen of what is to happen I suppose.
Unfortunately I haven't had the time to read much of the previous posts:(. I don't think I'll be able to came here much in the coming week, lots and lots of tests. But I'll try to read all of it.
That's ok, Hira, very understandable. School must come first! I have been working on some new posts, mostly about this idea of shadow and contrasts of the light. Also, the colour red, which is quite prominent in the story. I will post those next and if you find the time you can read them whenever you find the time. This thread is ongoing and will always be active I am sure so there is no time limit. Best of luck with your tests.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hira
An email will be coming shortly; yours is next in line. Thanks for being patient.
Yes i did notice that. I think that the use of the word shadow, could perhaps be another instance of foreshadow as to what she is about to discover, that her lover is still alive, but only a shadow of himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
And to me shadows can somtimes have a haunting feel to them, and with the woman's obcession with her past, in a way it is as if she is being haunted by her past or her memories and her lover is like a shadow that looms over her marriage or perhaps blocks the light from it.
Hi Dark Muse, sorry about that, I didn't see you there until I posted just now - we must have posted same time, althought this has taken me awhile to write. My brain is aching. Yes, I agree with what you just posted and this is a excellent idea/thought, also:
Quote by Dark Muse:
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And to me shadows can somtimes have a haunting feel to them, and with the woman's obcession with her past, in a way it is as if she is being haunted by her past or her memories and her lover is like a shadow that looms over her marriage or perhaps blocks the light from it.
I noticed that people in this story view others or themselves within frames - such as mirrors, windows, arches, doorways, etc.
The husband viewing his own image:
The husband viewing his wife's image:Quote:
He caught sight of his own face in a little mirror,..
Referring to Mrs. Coates viewing the couple together:Quote:
Then again he turned to survey the bedroom windows overlooking the garden. He started, seeing a woman's figure; but it was only his wife.
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The delightful, erect old lady hastened to the window for a good view of her visitors
The woman viewing the courtyard:
..and later on approaching the rose garden:Quote:
The uncurtained windows looked black and soulless, the kitchen door stood open. Irresolutely she took a step forward, and again forward, leaning, yearning, towards the garden…
That last part underlined seems like the final window or passage into that other world of the past in the rose garden, which is magical in her memory and mind.Quote:
…Glancing round, she saw all the windows giving on to the lawn were curtainless and dark.......
She went across the lawn towards the garden, through an arch of crimson ramblers, a gate of colour.
*******
Also, I noted the repetitive use of the word shadow and light, varied in different ways, throughout the story:
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She wore a hat with roses, and a long lace scarf hung over her white dress. Rather nervously, she put up her sunshade, and her face was half-hidden in its [/u]coloured shadow[/U].
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Under this she went slowly, stopping at length by an open doorway, which shone like a picture of light in the dark wall.
Particularly in this last passage, she passes from this magic glittering, luminous, sunny world into the courtyard and this moment ends with her viewing the house shrouded in shadow. This is a very forbodding image and forshadowing of what will come. This writing so beautifully leads up to the meeting with her former lover, who indeed is a human shadow.Quote:
There in the magic beyond the doorway, patterns of shadow lay on the sunny court, on the blue and white sea-pebbles of its paving, while a green lawn glowed beyond, where a bay tree glittered at the edges. She tiptoed nervously into the courtyard, glancing at the house that stood in shadow.
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The uncurtained windows looked black and soulless…
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…Glancing round, she saw all the windows giving on to the lawn were curtainless and dark. The house had a sterile appearance, as if it were still used, but not inhabited. A shadow seemed to go over her. She went across the lawn towards the garden, through an arch of crimson ramblers, a gate of colour.
Interesting contrasts of cool blues and deep blacks, also. Below is the quote -the 'darkness of the tree-tops covering the beck'. 'Misty' also makes me think of shadows; so the morning is full of 'shadows and mist'.Quote:
There beyond lay the soft blue sea with the bay, misty with morning, and the farthest headland of black rock jutting dimly out between blue and blue of the sky and water.
Her face began to shine, transfigured with pain and joy. At her feet the garden fell steeply, all a confusion of flowers, and away below was the darkness of tree-tops covering the beck. [/quote]
This use of the word transfigured is emensely important. Transfiguration is a word often used by Lawrence and part of his philosophy and beliefs. Here the woman passes back into time and is transfigured by pain and joy. This seems to suggest to me the shedding of blood that Lawrence spoke of so often and the combination of the 'pain and joy' in order to reach this moment of transfiguration.
Interesting that he moves silently as a shadow would, unheard...silent.Quote:
Then she started cruelly as a shadow crossed her and a figure moved into her sight. It was a man who had come in slippers, unheard.
The linen coat suggests a whitish light garment as well.Quote:
He wore a linen coat. The morning was shattered, the spell vanished away.
So I wondered if this last passage meant her transformation also, had been shattered and the magic left her - the spell had vanished away.
*****
I also noted colours used in the story - notably, the reds and whites.
Interesting colour contrast here. She sits among the 'white' roses, her dress is pure 'white', and her sunshade is 'scarlet'. I noticed 'reds' and 'scarlet' and 'flame' colours used throughout the story, in contrast with the white or blue or pure light. I wondered if this indicated references to purity/illumination/blood. I know in other stories of Lawrence’s these are repeated themes. I wondered if this woman, having suffered the revisiting of the old lover, experiences this deep wound which the crimson represents or suggests. Could this be a form of forshadowing in the story? In the beginning, the apple, which her husband bites into, is 'brownish red'. I found this to be strange and thought of the colour of dried blood. The next red reference seemed to be the ‘dark red’ gooseberries. Those seem to be particularly noted in the text - twice noticed by her. As she walked through the rose garden, there were many references to red among the roses:Quote:
Hastily, she went to a little seat among the white roses, and sat down. Her scarlet sunshade made a hard blot of colour.
[quote]Then the references change to 'white' and even 'ice':Quote:
Suddenly she was touching some heavy crimson roses that were soft as velvet……. Sometimes a flame-coloured, scentless rose would hold her arrested
Then she goes to the corner with the seat among the white roses.Quote:
Then she wondered over the white rose, that was greenish, like ice, in the centre. So, slowly, like a white, pathetic butterfly, she drifted down the path, coming at last to a tiny terrace all full of roses.
In the last story Virgil made reference to Lawrence idea of a person being as a flower. In this case the woman is like the rose, but one that does not come into full blossom.Quote:
She sat quite still, feeling her own existence lapse. She was no more than a rose, a rose that could not quite come into blossom, but remained tense.
I picture the black fly against the pure white dress, another fine contrast. A moment before the woman was referred to as a 'white butterfly' and now another winged insect is used to show the forshadowing...interesting....Quote:
A little fly dropped on her knee, on her white dress. She watched it, as if it had fallen on a rose. She was not herself.
Hehe no worriesQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Hehe I will not repost everything you just posted, just say, you made some great observations, but with the doorways, and the colors and repeition used within the story. That is intresting the way the people do see themselves or others within frames in the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes I noticed the way the color white was used within the story particuarly in relation to the woman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Good observation upon the use of the color.
If I remeber correctly, I think in the story, it was also the red roses that were described as being without scent, perhaps this is another use of forshadow regaurding the encounter she is about to have with her lover.
You mentioned how the color red within the story could be representive of blood but within roses espcially red is often a color of love and passion.
It was always within the back of mind to think, if she had discovered that her lover was not only still alive, but also still within his right mind, how would thier encounter have been different? Would she have been unfaithful and tried to pick up again where her and her lover left off?
Perhaps the pressence of the white is also representive of the innocence of thier meeting, for whatever thoughts she may have had, in his state nothing could happen between them again.
Good, you are there. I surely didn't want you to think I ignored your post. You are just so fast responding. hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Well, in doing these stories, it is always good to breakdown the various elements one notices. These seems so prominent in the story, the more I re-read it. You know - they just stood out. I guess one gets a different perspective. Also, after discussing so many of Lawrence's works this last year I can sort of spot things common to all the stories - elements and devices he uses. For one, he is so poetic and uses repetition poetically. The woman's walk throught the rose garden reads like a magical poem. It is like Alice through the looking glass or down the rabbit hole. Eventually this woman will return to reality. This hour or so in her life is now merely a dream sequence.Quote:
Hehe I will not repost everything you just posted, just say, you made some great observations, but with the doorways, and the colors and repeition used within the story. That is intresting the way the people do see themselves or others within frames in the story.
I even went so far to think of the beginning lines, when the husband viewed the clock and then his watch and I said - hummm, what significance did that have for Lawrence, and I think I know. Again, he is viewing something - 'time' in the clock face and the watch face - both within a dial or frame. The woman sees 'time' also, through a frame when she enters the garden. She goes back in time. The husband is rooted in the present time. The wife is rooted in the past and must make the transition now, to her present life and accept it, by the end of the story. The time away in the garden proves to be a total shadow of time, and an 'illusion' as a memory is an illusion or a fleeting white butterfly, one cannot keep or own.
Thanks. I think the use of color as it is used here is highly significant to this story. Again there is so much repetition in the color so that it is stressed often and colors are so intensified. One can see them so vividly. I really believe the white, knowing Lawrence's other works and his mind and how he referenced things, indicates the 'light' and light is vital to Lawrence and to life. Recall it in the last two stories and what a major role it played? I think the linen jacket the lover was wearing would have also been white and so he would have been more like a ghost or shadow. Ghosts are white and also as shadow. The man is in essense a ghost now from her past. I am glad Lawrence did not resort to using the word ghost. This use of shadow is so much more effective and original, don't you think? I think it is a deeper meaning than ghost, also.Quote:
Yes I noticed the way the color white was used within the story particuarly in relation to the woman.
Good observation upon the use of the color.
Yes, I think that is probably correct. There is a lot of forshadowing in this story, if you take the time to hunt for it. I wondered about this line in the beginning of the story:Quote:
If I remeber correctly, I think in the story, it was also the red roses that were described as being without scent, perhaps this is another use of forshadow regaurding the encounter she is about to have with her lover.
What do you make of that line? I keep musing over it and feel it means something significant.Quote:
Outside, the glory roses hung in the morning sunshine like little bowls of fire tipped up.
Yes, it is very true that red roses symbolise true love and passion, but in Lawrence's case, I just think they mean more. I do think though, this being an early story and Lawrence being an avid student of botany at that time of his life, he would know this and the meanings of all the flowers - that roses mean true love/passion. It is hard to explain Lawrence's blood philosophy and I think Virgil did in one of the other stories. I do think the various ways L is presenting the color of red indicates blood, but I am not quite sure why. Is it that the soldier was wounded, is it that the woman is wounded to her heart/soul? Is it that they went through a true blood experience of closeness (as Lawrence believed in) and are bound to each other for eternity? I don't really know. I wish I could find some commentary on this story, but so far I can't find much, only that apparently, Lawrence liked this story very much; and he was paid handsomely for it. I don't know exactly. Could it be that she has to go through this cleansing by the roses and blood, to become awakened to reality and become a new person living in the present day? I will ask Virgil what he thinks. Lawrence's ideas can be very complicated at times.Quote:
You mentioned how the color red within the story could be representive of blood but within roses espcially red is often a color of love and passion.
You know, I never felt she expected to meet him. I felt she knew he was dead. However, I do think she went there to commune with his memory and spirit. She wanted her perfect reminescense and dream in the rose garden. She did not bargain for finding the man alive, and without his spirit - this former lover quite altered. No, I believe she was in total 'shock' when she realised who he was. Wouldn't you be? Think of it. If you truly loved someone with a deep passion, would you ever forget them? Then if they died, you still would never forget them in your heart and you would hold the memory of them dearly within your deepest self, your soul. I think this must have been an earth-shattering moment in this woman's life. I can not imagine how I would feel myself. It is a strange thought to me.Quote:
It was always within the back of mind to think, if she had discovered that her lover was not only still alive, but also still within his right mind, how would thier encounter have been different? Would she have been unfaithful and tried to pick up again where her and her lover left off?
Well, considering he may be wearing white also, maybe the white is like innocense in eternity for both of them or perhaps only the lover. I don't know; the white seems to indicate a heavenly light. He has died already in a sense, but she still lives in the material world and is very much alive. She leaves him behind in the garden - a sort of 'rose heaven' and she must return to the natural world and her husband. For a short period of time it is as though she resides in heaven sitting there all in white with white roses surrounding her on their bench, but then there is that fly and the fly may just represent reality. What do you think?Quote:
Perhaps the pressence of the white is also representive of the innocence of thier meeting, for whatever thoughts she may have had, in his state nothing could happen between them again.
I hope all of this makes sense and is not too confusing to you.
Yes I really like the use of shadow in this story, and think it holds many possible meanings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
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Originally Posted by Janine
That line stuck out in my mind as wellQuote:
Outside, the glory roses hung in the morning sunshine like little bowls of fire tipped up.
I think she did beleive that he really was dead, but just the feeling I got. I think that if when he appeared, had he proven to be mentally as well as physcialy well the fact that she was married would have gone right out of her mind and she would have been all over him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Dark Muse, looks like only you and I are up this late on here. Are we really still at this this late at night? It is nearly 2:00 AM here...haha...two night owls or shadows. ;) I am starting to feel like a 'shadow' - kind of tired out and spent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes, shadows would have lots of connotations and meanings, I think. I will have to think on the word further. It is an interesting work. Remember the old TV show - probably before your time - "Only the Shadow Knows":alien: ; actually, I think it was an old radio program, called "The Shadow".
I was reading this letter Lawrence wrote to a budding young author and he was criticising her use of words and kept saying don't use trite ones, use new ones, and I think by not using ghost and using shadow instead, in the various ways he does in this story, shows exactly what he meant. It gives the story a freshness. Also, the title is great, I think. It makes one want to read the story. One does not think of shadows in a rose garden - more like sunlight in a rose garden.
So any ideas or musings on that line?Quote:
That line stuck out in my mind as well
I don't know. I was trying to place myself in her position, like thinking of someone I once loved and I broke up with. Actually, he broke off with me. If you go through that hurt and pain, you don't easily want to try it again, let alone with the same person. It seems in this story it stated he was the one to leave her behind. She may have been idealising the memory of her time with this man and not truly still in-love with the man himself. In 10 yrs, one can feel so much different and change so much, also. In reality it might never have worked out, if he had been sane. But really, we need not conjecture if he had been sane, because the story is about someone you rediscover who is not sane. How would one feel then? I only know a really close friend who died, and I was trying to put myself in the position, of going to places we shared that were memorable to times we spent together; then if suddenly I saw him and he was not dead at all, and yet he was such as this man - being only the shell or shadow of the person, he had once been. It is a strange thought. I had never considered this before. It would be truly shocking and odd.Quote:
I think she did beleive that he really was dead, but just the feeling I got. I think that if when he appeared, had he proven to be mentally as well as physcialy well the fact that she was married would have gone right out of her mind and she would have been all over him.
I have heard of thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I will have to mull this one over and maybe take another look the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
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Originally Posted by Janine
Perhaps my problem is I really cannot relate to the woman. I am the kind of person who really puts my past behind me. I do not forget it, but nor do I try and relive or revisit it. Though I do not have any past loved ones who have died, I have had some past loves, but they are no longer a part of my life, and I do not need them to be anymore then a memory to me, I do not have any desire to try and reconnect with them in anyway, not becasue I feel ill toward them but I am with someone else now, and he is what matters, now what I had before but what I have now.
Though without experincing it I cannot say just how I would react, but knowing my personality as it is, and maybe this will sound a bit cold but honestly, if I had a past love whom I thought was dead and discovered they were in fact a live but insane, I would probably just go home and tell my husband, supposing we were married, hey, the strangest thing just happend.
Dark Muse, Good idea. I re-read the story last night, too. It does help to see it in a different light. One thing now stands out to me, is the signs that they were at odds and seems to have friction between them from the very beginning of the story. Even Mrs. Coates notes that the woman has married someone somewhat incompatable with herself; this situation would be similar to Lawrence's parents - the mother was more refined and educated and the father more a working type man who worked as a coal miner. This disparity of backgrounds is often explored in many of Lawrence's works and shows how complex these type marriages can be. I will look up exact quotes later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes, I think this is a personal thing, and really we should stick to the story and the various elements of the story and the structure and what Lawrence is trying to convey, by presenting this tale. If we read books with villans, we don't always judge them as totally inhuman or hateful, but we try to understand their behavior. We kind of delve into their character and try to figure out what makes them tick.Quote:
Perhaps my problem is I really cannot relate to the woman. I am the kind of person who really puts my past behind me. I do not forget it, but nor do I try and relive or revisit it. Though I do not have any past loved ones who have died, I have had some past loves, but they are no longer a part of my life, and I do not need them to be anymore then a memory to me, I do not have any desire to try and reconnect with them in anyway, not becasue I feel ill toward them but I am with someone else now, and he is what matters, now what I had before but what I have now.
Though without experincing it I cannot say just how I would react, but knowing my personality as it is, and maybe this will sound a bit cold but honestly, if I had a past love whom I thought was dead and discovered they were in fact a live but insane, I would probably just go home and tell my husband, supposing we were married, hey, the strangest thing just happend.
OK I read the story and mostly went through the posts, except for the last page. I got a little tired reading. I will read the last page; it seemed like there was some good observations. I do think this is a fine story, perhaps even a profound story, despite a couple of poorly worded sentences.
Now if you don't mind, I'm going to take a step back and just outline the structure of the story. It's the story of a husband and wife who are staying at the wife's old town or region. I guess it's not clear whether they are visiting or coming to live there permanently. The wife has a past here (symbolized by the shadow motif perhaps that keeps coming up), and she "rids" her husband so that she can go back to a place that was particularly meaningful to her, where she had spent time with the man she loved before her husband. This place is a garden at the church grounds, a place where beuatiful roses are grown. She marvels at the roses and sort of lives in the remembrance of her love. And low and behold her old lover actually comes by, but she finds he has lost his sanity. When she realizes how damaged her old lover is, she runs off and returns home. At home her husband confronts her, she confesses of her past love, and they reach a point of climax in their relationship. It seems that the marriage will be better for it at the end, a sort of cathartic purging of past demons. So in summary it is a story of a past that must be overcome.
Janine, can you look up in Lawrence: A Calandar of His Works when this story was written? I know you posted something on the story where it was written in Cornwall. I'm wondering what that book says about this story.
Also I saw you all had something to say on whether we should be sympathetic to the woman. I don't know. It's mixed. She is tormented by her past (so one feels for her there), but she does treat her husband rather poorly. Also it is she who holds the power in the relationship, she is the wealthy one and her husband is the laborer. There is a sort of class subtheme to the story, although I don't see yet how it fits.
Virgil, glad you are come onboard. We need your help. In the last posts I think I would like your opinions on what I wrote because I was floundering some with the symbols and themes throughout the story (please see my post #920; I took a long time writing that one) - the repetitions I noticed such as the colors of red and white, the use of the word or variations of the word 'shadow', and the contrasts of light and dark.
Another theme here is as you stated:
I agree with this. I think there is a issue with 'wills' as well in this story, between husband and wife.Quote:
Also it is she who holds the power in the relationship, she is the wealthy one and her husband is the laborer. There is a sort of class subtheme to the story, although I don't see yet how it fits.
Funny, I am reading "Kangaroo" and this couple at time with their everyday interaction reminds me of Lawrence and Frieda. I guess one writes best what one know of. I don't think they represent the couple but the 'will' issue is similiar in each of the two works. "Kangaroo" was written shortly after this story I believe, but I could be wrong about that. I know after staying in Cornwall the Lawrence's did proceed to Australia and occuppied a cottage by the sea. I will look in the book for the timeline of when this story was written.
This idea just came to me. In the story two gardens are mentioned. The husband enters a garden by their new cottage/residence. The woman later enters a garden and the garden she enters is a sort of perfect dream-like heavenly garden. The husband's garden is ordinary and grounded in reality. The garden in the courtyard is like entering a perfect dreamworld. I believe the woman idealises the man she believes dead - not even the man, himself, but the 'memory' of this man. By dying he has become flawless and perfect, and she can bask in the sunlight and the roses, and have her perfect little dream of him. When people die, we often only view the good points they had, and disregard any flaws they might have exhibited. We forgive them for those, or we just accept them, as if they were perfect now, having passed into death and another world. Heaven and the dreamworld of this woman are similiar in concept and so she looks back and sees only the perfect parts of her time with him. Now when the real flesh and blood man presents himself, indeed he is human and imperfect; thus shattering her perfect dream and memory. This why she quickly departs - she wants to escape this harsh reality. It is interesting that this man, this former lover, loses his memory of her, but by her seeing him, she loses her dream. Eventually, this will bring closure to her 'dream', that she has harboured all this time, deep within herself. It will put an end to her dreaming and living within her past; by the last few lines of the story, one can see it says 'it will work itself out'...both parties seem to believe this. She also refers to herself as having put 'this thing upon herself and that her husband is 'not at fault'. When she mentions a membrane being torn within her, I think this symbolises this perfect dream and remembrance she has had and kept hidden, which now is torn from her. Through a blood cleansing - the word 'blood' is used in that paragraph - she will be healed of old wounds and be able to proceed with her marriage and her life.Quote:
I do think this is a fine story, perhaps even a profound story, despite a couple of poorly worded sentences.
This is quite interesting, and I have noticed that ide appearing within what of his works I have read thus far. I have also noticed it does seem to often by the woman within his stories whom is the more well off within the mismatched couples.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
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Originally Posted by Janine
Haha it depends on the villian for me, sometimes I am just like, ok would someone just kill him already please.
Good to have you join in
Yes I did notice that, which makes it even more currious why she had married the poor man to start with. As it seems she did not need to in order to support herself being she holds the wealth in the relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
He says himself that she never had loved him and alwyas held herself surperior to him and never took him seriously
It seems as if she married someone whom she knew she could trample all over, as she has the finical power in the relationship, he has nothing he can really hold over her and it seems his feelings for her are genuine, so she can do what she pleases and he inguldges her whims.