Atheists....

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Deep Blue's ability is the product of a conscious will enabling it to act.

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You don't get it do you? DeepBlue itself does not need an conscious will to act. It follows rules.

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It is a cop-out to answer a question directed to you by answering it in terms of how you think I see it. Why don't you answer the question, please.

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cop-out? I have given you three alternative answers. One of them is your own answer. And my answer is that rules are inherent in nature itself.

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Why should Nature have the rules it has?

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As I said before our science does not predict fundamental constants of the Universe yet. But M theory is showing to be quite promising in that regard. But early days...

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You gave an example of a natural process, but you did not answer my question as to why/how these rules would be "inherent" in nature - nature could be configured in a number of ways - why this way?

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These are rules we have discovered in nature. This is how nature works. Our science does not predict the fundamental constants of the Universe yet. But M theory is showing promising signs as I said before.

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Matter is not self-existent; it must have come from somewhere.

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Matter/Energy is neither created or destroyed. This is one of the tenets of science.

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I can't cut through all that "replicator" stuff - aren't things that "replicate" alive? Your first sentence seems to indicate that non-living things also experience natural selection - huh?

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Replicator is an apt definiton.

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Your first sentence seems to indicate that non-living things also experience natural selection - huh?

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Yes. As long as the replication creates varients that competes for resources in the environment.

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Why?

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Because only the varients that competes well for resources survives? Hence natural selection.

'the varients that competes well for resources survives? Hence natural selection.'
Unless a big rock falls on its bonce - unnatural selection
Here is a completely innocent question. I do not believe in evolution but I would like the evolutionists view on the huge variety of leaf forms exhibited by plants growing in the same climatic zones.
Is that off topic? No. Surely some clever evolutionist can give an on-topic answer.

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Originally Posted by Adelheid

Now, I'm NOT an atheist, but I've always wondered what exactly an atheist thinks or believes (now there's a contradiction if you've ever seen one! :lol: athesist and believe might as well see if you have a believer who disbelieves. :lol: )

Now what exactly does an atheist believe?? What is the definition you would give to describe an atheist?

I don't know if this is going to a popular thread or not, but I'll give it a try... ;)

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Describing myself as an atheist would be to compare my belief system with that of every other bit of life on this earth. Trees, ants, dogs, armdillos, butterflies, jellyfish, sharks....etc...go about thier existance worshiping nothing. No other bit of life on this earth has created an idea of a deity that has created them. It's not belief or a nonbelief. For me it's more of an acceptance that we're just one part or piece of a puzzle that makes up this planet. I have heard lots of religious folks say that they feel sad for atheists, because atheists see no purpose to thier lives, which is an assumption that without a belief in a creator atheists have and feel no purpose. This assumption has been laid at our feet to explain and define. Why does a person, wrongly accused of a crime, need to explain thier innosence to a group of accusers? The reason is to clear the doubt in the minds of the accusers. But that doesn't change the factual innosence of the accused, but rather allows the accusers to accept the accused as innocent in thier minds.

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Originally Posted by kiobe

Describing myself as an atheist would be to compare my belief system with that of every other bit of life on this earth. Trees, ants, dogs, armdillos, butterflies, jellyfish, sharks....etc...go about thier existance worshiping nothing. No other bit of life on this earth has created an idea of a deity that has created them. It's not belief or a nonbelief. For me it's more of an acceptance that we're just one part or piece of a puzzle that makes up this planet.

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Except that animals do not possess a rational self-consciousness; they do not have the ability to accept or reject God; the Bible says that knowledge of God is implanted in the human heart. Nothing is said of animals (who have no need to abstract about their existence like we do).

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Except that animals do not possess a rational self-consciousness; they do not have the ability to accept or reject God; the Bible says that knowledge of God is implanted in the human heart. Nothing is said of animals (who have no need to abstract about their existence like we do).

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That's absolutly true in a biblical sence, but because I don't believe in a biblical God, just as I don't believe in mythical gods, your defination belongs to you and a group of belivers like you. As far as exactly what any person or animal may or may not be thinking is impossible for me or you to know. You may be able to give an estimated guess about what your mom may be thinking about in any given situation, but that's based on a long history of your experiances with your mom. Truth is, we don't know what is going on in the minds of others be they human, animal, insect or otherwise. There's always the possibility that animals don't have the ability to accept or reject your god because it's something that's man made. Do they have ability to accept or reject anything else that's man made? What does a dog think about health care, or the U.S. occupation in Iraq. As far as God being planted in the human heart, why then is it possible to find people that have lived thier lives in remote areas of the world that, not only don't believe in a biblical God but, invent gods, (that any Christian would deny existance of), to fit thier small isolated world. If you truly believe in a God as described in the Bible and your are happier for it, I couldn't be happier for you, really, a deep belief in anything that makes a person, a better person, I'm all for.

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Originally Posted by kiobe

That's absolutly true in a biblical sence, but because I don't believe in a biblical God, just as I don't believe in mythical gods, your defination belongs to you and a group of belivers like you. As far as exactly what any person or animal may or may not be thinking is impossible for me or you to know. You may be able to give an estimated guess about what your mom may be thinking about in any given situation, but that's based on a long history of your experiances with your mom. Truth is, we don't know what is going on in the minds of others be they human, animal, insect or otherwise. There's always the possibility that animals don't have the ability to accept or reject your god because it's something that's man made. Do they have ability to accept or reject anything else that's man made? What does a dog think about health care, or the U.S. occupation in Iraq. As far as God being planted in the human heart, why then is it possible to find people that have lived thier lives in remote areas of the world that, not only don't believe in a biblical God but, invent gods, (that any Christian would deny existance of), to fit thier small isolated world. If you truly believe in a God as described in the Bible and your are happier for it, I couldn't be happier for you, really, a deep belief in anything that makes a person, a better person, I'm all for.

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Fine - but the idea that animals do not possess a rational, self-conscious and self-reflective intellect is something that science pretty much attests to more than religion. I'm simply pointing out that your comparison to animals isn't workable because - as a human being - you possess an intellectual facility to consider questions of existence whereas they (by all apparent observation) do not. In other words, animals do not have a belief system not because they choose not to, but because they lack the mental capability to even entertain such a thought.

The fact that certain tribes worship false gods and that we tend to make "gods" out of other things (money, sex, power, women, fame) merely serves to reinforce the Biblical idea of God "implanted" in the human heart: we desire to worship something - that something is supposed to be God, but we'll put anything in His place (of course, worshipping these other things tends to lead to all kinds of unhappiness).

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Fine - but the idea that animals do not possess a rational, self-conscious and self-reflective intellect is something that science pretty much attests to more than religion. I'm simply pointing out that your comparison to animals isn't workable because - as a human being - you possess an intellectual facility to consider questions of existence whereas they (by all apparent observation) do not. In other words, animals do not have a belief system not because they choose not to, but because they lack the mental capability to even entertain such a thought.

The fact that certain tribes worship false gods and that we tend to make "gods" out of other things (money, sex, power, women, fame) merely serves to reinforce the Biblical idea of God "implanted" in the human heart: we desire to worship something - that something is supposed to be God, but we'll put anything in His place (of course, worshipping these other things tends to lead to all kinds of unhappiness).

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Lets say for the sake of discusson that we know, absolutly, that animals don't posess the mental capablilty to entertain the idea of a creator that we are capable of knowing. How did we, man, know this before the bible was written? What was the reason that God chose to write, through man, a series of rules and fables to tell man what man should already feel in his heart. And why so much God-inspired killing, kidnaping and rape? Don't these thing seem more man made than Godly?

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Originally Posted by kiobe

Lets say for the sake of discusson that we know, absolutly, that animals don't posess the mental capablilty to entertain the idea of a creator that we are capable of knowing. How did we, man, know this before the bible was written? What was the reason that God chose to write, through man, a series of rules and fables to tell man what man should already feel in his heart. And why so much God-inspired killing, kidnaping and rape? Don't these thing seem more man made than Godly?

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The Bible is not a series of "rules" and "fables." God offers us guidelines about how to live a good, happy, and fulfilling life; please don't tell me that adhering to Biblical principles of morality would result in a bad life of some sort - what would society be like if we didn't steal, didn't lie, didn't sleep with each other's wives, didn't murder, didn't get drunk, spread gossip, hate each other, etc etc etc? People look at the Biblical guidelines as if they hamper their "fun" - but the "fun" they hamper ultimately ends up harming the individual or society. "Fables" because you don't believe them.

Second, I cannot tell you how many times I have heard this tired charge about the atrocities done in the "name of God." God does not "inspire" murder, kidnapping and rape - period. I'd like someone to explain why atheists keep putting that charge out again and again and again - like it proves something. What exactly is the point of telling me this?

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

The Bible is not a series of "rules" and "fables." God offers us guidelines about how to live a good, happy, and fulfilling life; please don't tell me that adhering to Biblical principles of morality would result in a bad life of some sort - what would society be like if we didn't steal, didn't lie, didn't sleep with each other's wives, didn't murder, didn't get drunk, spread gossip, hate each other, etc etc etc? People look at the Biblical guidelines as if they hamper their "fun" - but the "fun" they hamper ultimately ends up harming the individual or society. "Fables" because you don't believe them.

Second, I cannot tell you how many times I have heard this tired charge about the atrocities done in the "name of God." God does not "inspire" murder, kidnapping and rape - period. I'd like someone to explain why atheists keep putting that charge out again and again and again - like it proves something. What exactly is the point of telling me this?

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Wow, I have to say that using the bible, literally translated, as a book of morality is to do extreem cherry picking of it. Yes, the 10 commandments look like a moral life map until a person looks at the consequences of breaking any of the commandments, most of which is death. Pretty strict "guideline". Death for working on the sabbath. Ever work on a sunday? Has anyone in your family ever worked on a Sunday, if so, you know what you have to do. But you won't because it's absurd and moraly wrong to kill someone for trying to support a family even if that person needs to work on a Sunday at Wal-Mart because they offer a good health care plan. The consequence for breaking the 6th commandment, Thou shal not kill, is that the elders of the village are to stone to DEATH, the person that did the origional killing. What are we to do with the elders that just broke the 6th commandment by killing someone. Or should the 6th commandment actually read, Thou shal not kill unless DIRECTED by God. What about Numbers 31, where God DIRECTS Moses to kill all the Midinites and then chastises him for not killing the children and DIRECTS him to go back and kill the male children and return with the female virgins and to use them as vessels to grow a larger community. Any thinking person will look at this and know that it is not a moral thing to do. The bible is full of thousands of examples just like this. I've read the bible as a piece of literature and morality is not a common thread. If you look at the commandments they seem man made.
1.No other gods before me. Seems egotistical. Punishment is death.
2.No graven images. Again egotistical and rather controling. Death.
3.taking the lords name in vain. Sticks and stones, egotistical. Death.
4.Remember the sabbath. Controling. Punishment is death.
5.honour your parents. Good advise. Extreem punishment though...death.
6.Don't kill. Good advise. Punishment contradicts advise....death.
7Adultry is wrong. Good advise. Punishment is death of the 2 ofending people.
8. Don't steal. Good advise, origional meaning was that of people. Punishment, death. Someone has to break #6 to enforce the punishments for the offenders in the above 1 through 8 commandments.
9.False witness. Don't lie, good advise.
10. Don't covet. Good advise.
Well 2 out of 10 seem to have a moralistic result. Is God egotistical? Why is God so controling?

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Originally Posted by kiobe

Wow, I have to say that using the bible, literally translated, as a book of morality is to do extreem cherry picking of it.

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The Bible isn't a "book of morality." It is the revelation of God's character as told through the history of His people. In the process of telling that history, we get guidelines on how best to conduct ourselves.

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Originally Posted by kiobe

Yes, the 10 commandments look like a moral life map until a person looks at the consequences of breaking any of the commandments, most of which is death. Pretty strict "guideline". Death for working on the sabbath. Ever work on a sunday? Has anyone in your family ever worked on a Sunday, if so, you know what you have to do. But you won't because it's absurd and moraly wrong to kill someone for trying to support a family even if that person needs to work on a Sunday at Wal-Mart because they offer a good health care plan.

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If you are going to critique the Bible, make sure you've read all of it and are aware of the interaction between the Old and New testaments. First, all sin is rebellion against God; since God is the source of all life in the universe, rebelling against Him is kind of like refusing to eat: at some point, you will die. God did not randomly decide that sin = death; that is simply the nature of reality: all that is not reflective of His character leads to death. As well, Christ's sacrifice ended the death penalty for believers - Christ's substitutionary death frees us from the inevitable sentence of death that sin brings with it. God would rather that you worked on the Sabbath and took care of your family. The New Testament makes that very clear.

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Originally Posted by kiobe

The consequence for breaking the 6th commandment, Thou shal not kill, is that the elders of the village are to stone to DEATH, the person that did the origional killing. What are we to do with the elders that just broke the 6th commandment by killing someone. Or should the 6th commandment actually read, Thou shal not kill unless DIRECTED by God.

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The original Hebrew says "murder" not "kill." There is a difference. The Old Testament makes it clear that the taking of human life is not the greatest of sins - and God - the creator of all human life - is free to decide whom He wishes to live and whom He wishes to die - but these decisions are not arbitrary or random; since God is perfect in all His attributes - including justice - it is assumed that the death sentence delivered by God is completely fair (whether we see the merit in that justice or not). The Bible does not forbid all killing. So, your apparent Catch-22 is no such thing. Next, your capitals indicate that you seem to place God on level with human beings (i.e. that He can never have a good reason for calling for the death of a person or people) and that you've caught Him in some sort of contradiction - as if an adult must be held to the same rules as a small child. No. God makes His decisions based on things that we do not/cannot know. To us - with our limited ideas about justice - He may appear very wrong in calling for the elimination of certain people(s) - but some of your behaviors observed without proper knowledge and context might make you look pretty bad too.

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Originally Posted by kiobe

What about Numbers 31, where God DIRECTS Moses to kill all the Midinites and then chastises him for not killing the children and DIRECTS him to go back and kill the male children and return with the female virgins and to use them as vessels to grow a larger community. Any thinking person will look at this and know that it is not a moral thing to do.

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It is the honesty of the Bible to show such things that human beings are sure to misinterpret or misunderstand that makes the Bible different from many other documents. You make the assumption that the Midianites' lives should have been spared; upon what do you base this judgment? I don't understand God's decision either, but - since He is described as all-powerful, all-knowing, as the source of life and love in the universe, then I have to assume that He had good reasons for His decision (reasons I may not understand just yet). As well, your definition of "moral" may or may not jive with God's - and if He is who the Bible describes Him to be, then how can you compare your vision of morality to His?

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Originally Posted by kiobe

The bible is full of thousands of examples just like this. I've read the bible as a piece of literature and morality is not a common thread. If you look at the commandments they seem man made.
1.No other gods before me. Seems egotistical. Punishment is death.
2.No graven images. Again egotistical and rather controling. Death.
3.taking the lords name in vain. Sticks and stones, egotistical. Death.
4.Remember the sabbath. Controling. Punishment is death.
5.honour your parents. Good advise. Extreem punishment though...death.
6.Don't kill. Good advise. Punishment contradicts advise....death.
7Adultry is wrong. Good advise. Punishment is death of the 2 ofending people.
8. Don't steal. Good advise, origional meaning was that of people. Punishment, death. Someone has to break #6 to enforce the punishments for the offenders in the above 1 through 8 commandments.
9.False witness. Don't lie, good advise.
10. Don't covet. Good advise.
Well 2 out of 10 seem to have a moralistic result. Is God egotistical? Why is God so controling?

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"Egotistical" is a term that cannot be applied to God; He who created the universe and all that exists has a perfect right to be first in the minds and hearts of those He created. Generally, to have an issue with God's decree that He should come first stems from the refusal/inability to see God as a supreme being; instead, if we view Him as a sort of "super" human with human faults, then yes, His command is egotistical; but, as the source of all reality, He is worthy of such attention and praise because without Him, nothing would exist.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

The Bible is not a series of "rules" and "fables." God offers us guidelines about how to live a good, happy, and fulfilling life; please don't tell me that adhering to Biblical principles of morality would result in a bad life of some sort - what would society be like if we didn't steal, didn't lie, didn't sleep with each other's wives, didn't murder, didn't get drunk, spread gossip, hate each other, etc etc etc? People look at the Biblical guidelines as if they hamper their "fun" - but the "fun" they hamper ultimately ends up harming the individual or society. "Fables" because you don't believe them.

Second, I cannot tell you how many times I have heard this tired charge about the atrocities done in the "name of God." God does not "inspire" murder, kidnapping and rape - period. I'd like someone to explain why atheists keep putting that charge out again and again and again - like it proves something. What exactly is the point of telling me this?

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

The Bible isn't a "book of morality." It is the revelation of God's character as told through the history of His people. In the process of telling that history, we get guidelines on how best to conduct ourselves.



If you are going to critique the Bible, make sure you've read all of it and are aware of the interaction between the Old and New testaments. First, all sin is rebellion against God; since God is the source of all life in the universe, rebelling against Him is kind of like refusing to eat: at some point, you will die. God did not randomly decide that sin = death; that is simply the nature of reality: all that is not reflective of His character leads to death. As well, Christ's sacrifice ended the death penalty for believers - Christ's substitutionary death frees us from the inevitable sentence of death that sin brings with it. God would rather that you worked on the Sabbath and took care of your family. The New Testament makes that very clear.



The original Hebrew says "murder" not "kill." There is a difference. The Old Testament makes it clear that the taking of human life is not the greatest of sins - and God - the creator of all human life - is free to decide whom He wishes to live and whom He wishes to die - but these decisions are not arbitrary or random; since God is perfect in all His attributes - including justice - it is assumed that the death sentence delivered by God is completely fair (whether we see the merit in that justice or not). The Bible does not forbid all killing. So, your apparent Catch-22 is no such thing. Next, your capitals indicate that you seem to place God on level with human beings (i.e. that He can never have a good reason for calling for the death of a person or people) and that you've caught Him in some sort of contradiction - as if an adult must be held to the same rules as a small child. No. God makes His decisions based on things that we do not/cannot know. To us - with our limited ideas about justice - He may appear very wrong in calling for the elimination of certain people(s) - but some of your behaviors observed without proper knowledge and context might make you look pretty bad too.



It is the honesty of the Bible to show such things that human beings are sure to misinterpret or misunderstand that makes the Bible different from many other documents. You make the assumption that the Midianites' lives should have been spared; upon what do you base this judgment? I don't understand God's decision either, but - since He is described as all-powerful, all-knowing, as the source of life and love in the universe, then I have to assume that He had good reasons for His decision (reasons I may not understand just yet). As well, your definition of "moral" may or may not jive with God's - and if He is who the Bible describes Him to be, then how can you compare your vision of morality to His?



"Egotistical" is a term that cannot be applied to God; He who created the universe and all that exists has a perfect right to be first in the minds and hearts of those He created. Generally, to have an issue with God's decree that He should come first stems from the refusal/inability to see God as a supreme being; instead, if we view Him as a sort of "super" human with human faults, then yes, His command is egotistical; but, as the source of all reality, He is worthy of such attention and praise because without Him, nothing would exist.

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You said "biblical principle of morality", not me. Incased in your reply is the very reason I don't believe in a biblical God. There's an illogical closed loop circle of contradictions, rationalizations, control and a huge L E A P of faith based on a 2500 year old blog that requires a person to shut down and answer any question with, it's God's will. Sorry man, I'll never get there. Besides we're way off the subject, Adelheid asked what do atheists believe, if anything, And I've answered that. I think the problem you and I are having coming to a middle ground on this is you are answering my inquiries with a fairy tale, and I am answering your's with what probably sounds like blasphemy........do you like football? lol

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Originally Posted by kiobe

You said "biblical principle of morality", not me. Incased in your reply is the very reason I don't believe in a biblical God. There's an illogical closed loop circle of contradictions, rationalizations, control and a huge L E A P of faith based on a 2500 year old blog that requires a person to shut down and answer any question with, it's God's will. Sorry man, I'll never get there. Besides we're way off the subject, Adelheid asked what do atheists believe, if anything, And I've answered that. I think the problem you and I are having coming to a middle ground on this is you are answering my inquiries with a fairy tale, and I am answering your's with what probably sounds like blasphemy........do you like football? lol

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My answer was more developed than "God's will." As well, I wouldn't call anything you've said "blasphemous." As far as the "fairy tale" part, well that remains to be seen. I suppose the one good thing about believing is this: if you're right, we'll never know; if I'm right, we'll both know. See you -

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

The Bible is not a series of "rules" and "fables." God offers us guidelines about how to live a good, happy, and fulfilling life; please don't tell me that adhering to Biblical principles of morality would result in a bad life of some sort - what would society be like if we didn't steal, didn't lie, didn't sleep with each other's wives, didn't murder, didn't get drunk, spread gossip, hate each other, etc etc etc? People look at the Biblical guidelines as if they hamper their "fun" - but the "fun" they hamper ultimately ends up harming the individual or society. "Fables" because you don't believe them.

Second, I cannot tell you how many times I have heard this tired charge about the atrocities done in the "name of God." God does not "inspire" murder, kidnapping and rape - period. I'd like someone to explain why atheists keep putting that charge out again and again and again - like it proves something. What exactly is the point of telling me this?

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1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.

4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.

5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

19 And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.

20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats’ hair, and all things made of wood.

21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;

22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,

23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.

24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.

25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:

27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:

28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:

29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.

30 And of the children of Israel’s half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.

31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,

33 And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,

34 And threescore and one thousand asses,

35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

36 And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:

37 And the LORD’S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

38 And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD’S tribute was threescore and twelve.

39 And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD’S tribute was threescore and one.

40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD’S tribute was thirty and two persons.

41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the LORD’S heave offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses.

42 And of the children of Israel’s half, which Moses divided from the men that warred,

43 (Now the half that pertained unto the congregation was three hundred thousand and thirty thousand and seven thousand and five hundred sheep,

44 And thirty and six thousand beeves,

45 And thirty thousand asses and five hundred,

46 And sixteen thousand persons;)

47 Even of the children of Israel’s half, Moses took one portion of fifty, both of man and of beast, and gave them unto the Levites, which kept the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD; as the LORD commanded Moses.

48 And the officers which were over thousands of the host, the captains of thousands, and captains of hundreds, came near unto Moses:

49 And they said unto Moses, Thy servants have taken the sum of the men of war which are under our charge, and there lacketh not one man of us.

50 We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.

51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.

52 And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to the LORD, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels.

53 (For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself.)

54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

My answer was more developed than "God's will." As well, I wouldn't call anything you've said "blasphemous." As far as the "fairy tale" part, well that remains to be seen. I suppose the one good thing about believing is this: if you're right, we'll never know; if I'm right, we'll both know. See you -

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Yea but do you like football?

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