I have to admit, though the brother was quite annoying, in someways I could not help but to find him somewhat amusing. Though I know this was not the intent, his character was like comic releif to me, and made me kind of laugh.
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I have to admit, though the brother was quite annoying, in someways I could not help but to find him somewhat amusing. Though I know this was not the intent, his character was like comic releif to me, and made me kind of laugh.
Yes, he was rather devious and annoying, but someone in a strange way perhaps amusing. Still I don't think the sister's would have viewed his little song in that light. He is being disrespectful and intrusive, during what should be a serious and holy ceremony..
Here is the next part of the text:
Quote:
Suddenly her father began to pray. His familiar, loud, rambling voice made her shut herself up and become even insentient. Folks said his mind was weakening. She believed it to be true, and kept herself always disconnected from him.
"We ask Thee, Lord," the old man cried, "to look after this childt. Fatherless he is. But what does the earthly father matter before Thee? The childt is Thine, he is Thy childt. Lord, what father has a man but Thee? Lord, when a man says he is a father, he is wrong from the first word. For Thou art the Father, Lord. Lord, take away from us the conceit that our children are ours. Lord, Thou art Father of this childt as is fatherless here. O God, Thou bring him up. For I have stood between Thee and my children; I've had my way with them, Lord; I've stood between Thee and my children; I've cut 'em off from Thee because they were mine. And they've grown twisted, because of me. Who is their father, Lord, but Thee? But I put myself in the way, they've been plants under a stone, because of me. Lord, if it hadn't been for me, they might ha' been trees in the sunshine. Let me own it, Lord, I've done 'em mischief. It could ha' been better if they'd never known no father. No man is a father, Lord: only Thou art. They can never grow beyond Thee, but I hampered them. Lift 'em up again, and undo what I've done to my children. And let this young childt be like a willow tree beside the waters, with no father but Thee, O God. Aye an' I wish it had been so with my children, that they'd had no father but Thee. For I've been like a stone upon them, and they rise up and curse me in their wickedness. But let me go, an' lift Thou them up, Lord . . ."
This was an interesting speech by the father, in which he is blaming himself for the way his children now act. In a way in doing so he is taking the responsibility for their neglect of him away from them. He is forgiving them of their treatment to him, by putting it upon his shoulders, and saying it is because of him that they are now so corrupt. He does not seem to harbor any true bitter feelings towards them in this speech.
He does seem to truly wish the best for them, as well it seems he sees within the child a hope that the boy might have a better life or a chance, though I do not see how the child could turn out any differently under Emma and Bertha.
Considering the way the women in the house act toward the father, and the fact that the father of Emma's baby is completely excluded from the child's life, perhaps it is understnable why the brohter might behave in the way he does, I can imagine he hardly gets treated any better by the women, as they do not even treat each other well. I can understand him being bitter toward his sisters, as I cannot see them having any resepct for him.
Dark Muse, glad to see you comment, so we can move along towards the ending. I agree, it as an interesting speech by the father and he did seem to be putting the blame finally upon himself. I felt sorry for him and felt he was so downtrodden by then it seemed the only thing he knew to do. He was trying to alleviate the tension and in actuality it only made things worse. I don't know if I felt he was feeling also totally sorry for himself in stating all of these things and his blame as to the way the family has turned out. I suppose you are right, he is trying in his own way to forgive them for their abuse of himself and maybe each other. Right - he does not say this in a bitter tone but one of being resigned to the position he has fallen into. It so sad to me to hear him go on like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I will have to review that part. I don't recall him mentioning the child but I guess it is just my failure right now of memory. I think he asks for the child to be blessed. Yes, maybe the child is his only hope for a better future, when he is gone.Quote:
He does seem to truly wish the best for them, as well it seems he sees within the child a hope that the boy might have a better life or a chance, though I do not see how the child could turn out any differently under Emma and Bertha.
Wait a minute. How can you assume the mother is completely excluded from the child's life? I don't quite see it that extreme. She is nursing the child and said she felt a burning love for him, even though he is a symbol of her wrong- doing.Quote:
Considering the way the women in the house act toward the father, and the fact that the father of Emma's baby is completely excluded from the child's life, perhaps it is understnable why the brohter might behave in the way he does, I can imagine he hardly gets treated any better by the women, as they do not even treat each other well. I can understand him being bitter toward his sisters, as I cannot see them having any resepct for him.
I would not imagine the son would be treated any better and he is surrounded by women and probably has built up his own defenses, don't you think. He is merely striking out at all of them in the only way he knows how to be. He does not directly criticise them but used the little song to make his scathing demeaning point. Ironic also that the song is a baby/child song, one commonly played with them.
Well in his speach he implies the child will be better off becasue it will only have its heavenly father, and not be corrupted by the pride of a mortal father.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I said the child's father is completely excludededQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Quote:
and the fact that the father of Emma's baby is completely excluded from the child's life,
Ok, I get it now. I did not consider that part. You are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Sorry, I mistook that for the mother.Quote:
I said the child's father is completely excludeded
Hey gals, I was on a business trip and cold not get onto the internet. I have a lot of catching up to do.
Welcome back
Virgil, welcome back; glad you are home safely. We are almost done this story, but can hold up, until you post some more comments. I only have one more segment of text to post and hope to wrap this one up by the end of Sept. I need that October break we all discussed.
If there is any doubt that the paternity of the child is important to the story, then the father's speech should relieve one of that doubt. Notice how everything in the speech is about fatherhood:
Quote:
"We ask Thee, Lord," the old man cried, "to look after this childt. Fatherless he is. But what does the earthly father matter before Thee? The childt is Thine, he is Thy childt. Lord, what father has a man but Thee? Lord, when a man says he is a father, he is wrong from the first word. For Thou art the Father, Lord. Lord, take away from us the conceit that our children are ours. Lord, Thou art Father of this childt as is fatherless here. O God, Thou bring him up. For I have stood between Thee and my children; I've had my way with them, Lord; I've stood between Thee and my children; I've cut 'em off from Thee because they were mine. And they've grown twisted, because of me. Who is their father, Lord, but Thee? But I put myself in the way, they've been plants under a stone, because of me. Lord, if it hadn't been for me, they might ha' been trees in the sunshine. Let me own it, Lord, I've done 'em mischief. It could ha' been better if they'd never known no father. No man is a father, Lord: only Thou art. They can never grow beyond Thee, but I hampered them. Lift 'em up again, and undo what I've done to my children. And let this young childt be like a willow tree beside the waters, with no father but Thee, O God. Aye an' I wish it had been so with my children, that they'd had no father but Thee. For I've been like a stone upon them, and they rise up and curse me in their wickedness. But let me go, an' lift Thou them up, Lord . . ."
And so I think this is the central question of the novel. A fatherless child before God. What is this story about but a bastard child getting babtized. How is the child going to get on?Quote:
"We ask Thee, Lord," the old man cried, "to look after this childt. Fatherless he is.
This is certainly more inspirationaly religious than the pastor's speech. It links the father with religious elements.Quote:
But what does the earthly father matter before Thee? The childt is Thine, he is Thy childt. Lord, what father has a man but Thee? Lord, when a man says he is a father, he is wrong from the first word. For Thou art the Father, Lord. Lord, take away from us the conceit that our children are ours. Lord, Thou art Father of this childt as is fatherless here. O God, Thou bring him up.
Yes he takes the blame for the daughters, but notice the rationale, because he has cut them off from God.Quote:
For I have stood between Thee and my children; I've had my way with them, Lord; I've stood between Thee and my children; I've cut 'em off from Thee because they were mine. And they've grown twisted, because of me.
And notice that metaphors. By cutting the daughters off they have grown twisted and could have grown as "trees in the sunshine," and by freeing the child he will be like a " willow tree beside the waters." The tree metaphor is a variation of the recurring Lawrentian flower imagery of perfect life.Quote:
Who is their father, Lord, but Thee? But I put myself in the way, they've been plants under a stone, because of me. Lord, if it hadn't been for me, they might ha' been trees in the sunshine. Let me own it, Lord, I've done 'em mischief. It could ha' been better if they'd never known no father. No man is a father, Lord: only Thou art. They can never grow beyond Thee, but I hampered them. Lift 'em up again, and undo what I've done to my children. And let this young childt be like a willow tree beside the waters, with no father but Thee, O God. Aye an' I wish it had been so with my children, that they'd had no father but Thee. For I've been like a stone upon them, and they rise up and curse me in their wickedness. But let me go, an' lift Thou them up, Lord . . ."
So is it a good thing then that the child is fatherless? Or is this ironic?
Virgil, I like all that you have said in this post. You have zeroed in on some very good points. You are right in that the speech does indeed center around the idea or concept of fatherhood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yes, and I think now I know why the meeting with the baker, in the beginning was important to the story. It now becomes an integral part of the plot and the theme, as well. This father has felt alienated and set appart from his children and so does the father of this man's grandchild; and even though God is present, the father feels he has alienated his own children from that God. The full reason he seems to feel this way and take on all the blame is not quite evident to me, but it must as he says, or at least this is the perception he has, about his causing the demise of his own family.Quote:
And so I think this is the central question of the novel. A fatherless child before God. What is this story about but a bastard child getting babtized. How is the child going to get on?
That is certainly does seem to do and the pastor's speech now seems so cold in comparison to the emotional speech of the father.Quote:
This is certainly more inspirationaly religious than the pastor's speech. It links the father with religious elements.
Why do you think it was his doing, or the mere fact, that he believes he is to blame, for cutting them off from God? I tend to agree with you, but wonder why is it so...how that came to be the case, to begin with.Quote:
Yes he takes the blame for the daughters, but notice the rationale, because he has cut them off from God.
Aha! I had not noticed that before. That is right and it is so well stated and worded. I think trees also were as significant to L as were flowers - both have roots and a stem/trunk and some trees even flower/all have leaves like petals. This metaphor is wonderful.Quote:
And notice that metaphors. By cutting the daughters off they have grown twisted and could have grown as "trees in the sunshine," and by freeing the child he will be like a " willow tree beside the waters." The tree metaphor is a variation of the recurring Lawrentian flower imagery of perfect life.
This I can't personally determine. Perhaps because of Lawrence's own father he feels it is good. I am still not sure of what I just said. At the time this story was written he may have felt differently about his father than later in his life. I don't know if it is truthful or ironic in it's meaning. Which do you think,Quote:
So is it a good thing then that the child is fatherless? Or is this ironic?
Quote:
Virgil?
Yes, it's not evident to me either. That's why I can't come to any conclusion. Maybe the last part of the story will reveal something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
There isn't enough background to fill us in. Was he a weak father? It's not just the daughters, but the son seems to be dysfunctional too. I just don't know.Quote:
Why do you think it was his doing, or the mere fact, that he believes he is to blame, for cutting them off from God? I tend to agree with you, but wonder why is it so...how that came to be the case, to begin with.
Yes I just noticed that after you posted it.Quote:
Aha! I had not noticed that before. That is right and it is so well stated and worded. I think trees also were as significant to L as were flowers - both have roots and a stem/trunk and some trees even flower/all have leaves like petals. This metaphor is wonderful.
This is still a relatively early story and perhaps he still sides with his mother over his father. But then the way he protrays the daughters wouldn't fit. I don't think Lawrence is being sympathetic to the daughters. I know you may disagree with that. But is he really balming the father? Let's see what the ending brings up.Quote:
This I can't personally determine. Perhaps because of Lawrence's own father he feels it is good. I am still not sure of what I just said. At the time this story was written he may have felt differently about his father than later in his life. I don't know if it is truthful or ironic in it's meaning. Which do you think,
It might; I will post that part tonight, so we can be done with this story soon; wrap up our comments, then take that much needed month's break.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I don't know. I feel he is 'weak' now from his illness. but whether he was a 'weak' father is unknown. Was there ever any mention of this wife - the mother of these children? I don't recall any text, that referred to her; it might just be my memory. He was mentioned in the beginning, in regards to their nice house and for providing well for the family.Quote:
There isn't enough background to fill us in. Was he a weak father? It's not just the daughters, but the son seems to be dysfunctional too. I just don't know.
Yes, the son surely is dysfunctional as well. He has to be being brought up in this family. I would image by his display he is also rebelling against the authority of his sisters.
Oh good.Quote:
Yes I just noticed that after you posted it.
I was thinking the same about the male attitude, but then like you, the strong woman dominating does seem to contradict that,... or does it? Maybe in Lawrence's view, his own father (who did has many weaknesses) was poorly treated by his mother and even his children (last in response to siding with thir mother). Therefore, in the final analysis the 'domineering' aspect of the women comes out in this story, even though he is giving sympathy to the father. He is maybe, seeing the women in two respects: strong, yet holding the power in the family; capable, yet domineering. Lawrence is surely reflecting some of the atmosphere that did exist in his own family.Quote:
This is still a relatively early story and perhaps he still sides with his mother over his father. But then the way he protrays the daughters wouldn't fit. I don't think Lawrence is being sympathetic to the daughters. I know you may disagree with that. But is he really balming the father? Let's see what the ending brings up.
Be back later to post the end of the story. Feel free to comment on what I just wrote. Hope that last part makes some kind of sense.;)
I thought there was a mention of the old man's wife, but I could not find it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I think we'll see that shortly.Quote:
Yes, the son surely is dysfunctional as well. He has to be being brought up in this family. I would image by his display he is also rebelling against the authority of his sisters.
By jove I think you've hit on it! Yes it's a problem that the women are domineering but it's come about because of the father's weakness. They are all to blame in their own way. Now isn't that a complicated theme for a short story. Even the father's wealth is something that Lawrence is adding as a reason for his weakness as a father. He was too concerned with earning a living and creating prosperity for his kids rather than building their spiritual life. But in the end the father realizes that spirituality and hopes to pass it on the the little child. This is the child's true babtism! Now I think it all fits!!:)Quote:
I was thinking the same about the male attitude, but then like you, the strong woman dominating does seem to contradict that,... or does it? Maybe in Lawrence's view, his own father (who did has many weaknesses) was poorly treated by his mother and even his children (last in response to siding with thir mother). Therefore, in the final analysis the 'domineering' aspect of the women comes out in this story, even though he is giving sympathy to the father. He is maybe, seeing the women in two respects: strong, yet holding the power in the family; capable, yet domineering. Lawrence is surely reflecting some of the atmosphere that did exist in his own family.
Ok I'm ready for the next part. :)Quote:
Be back later to post the end of the story. Feel free to comment on what I just wrote. Hope that last part makes some kind of sense.;)
Virgil, Last night I was answering this post and I went to get the rest of the text to post and could not find it in my file. Actually it was there listed but then when I clicked on it the file said now it is missing or unavailable - there is now a N/A after much of the things I put into this new Works file.:crash: I seriously need to buy Word! I don't know what has happened, but then I had renewed my virus protector, so maybe that has something to do with it, who knows. Also something told me to fix some cookies and that is when it happened - after that. I should have ignored it since the threat said low. I think those are just glinches in the program. Good news is that I recently backed all that up onto my external HD unit and it apparently is still there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Anyway, I had this whole post written and then I closed the window by accident - horrors! I lost the whole post!!! Then to top it off, it suddenly (out of nowhere) started to thunder outside loudly and I had to unplug the computer; so I gave up for the night. Well, now I have to start all over again; hope I recall what I had written.
Hopefully we will.Quote:
I think we'll see that shortly.
First when I read this I was not sure if your tone was sarcastic or sincere? If it was sincere, thanks so much. I was not sure exactly that I was explaining my thoughts clearly. I do think the women strong or portrayed that way but then again in all of Lawrence's work I see him portraying women with strength and so I did not find that particularly peculiar in this story. I do think the husband was strong in areas - such as providing for his family and earning a good living but he seemed to have missed out, as you said or implied on his lack of instilling the spirituality in his children that would make them compassionate and understanding human beings. I think, now in retrospect, her realises this short coming and how weak he was in this area. Children need more that mere providing for - the need nurturing and a sense of values and I would surmise he overlooked this part of his parenting. In this way the father is weak or was weak with them. Perhaps he even indulged them instead of guiding them for the future. If he raised the family without his wife - say she died awhile back, then he was focused on providing. Most men are; but he now realises he has failed in some aspect of their upbringing. He is certainly trying to redeem himself by the prayer and the admission of his faults and now looking to the grandson to be his salvation or redeption. Thus this prayer for the babe comes out in an emotional but strong manner.Quote:
By jove I think you've hit on it! Yes it's a problem that the women are domineering but it's come about because of the father's weakness. They are all to blame in their own way. Now isn't that a complicated theme for a short story. Even the father's wealth is something that Lawrence is adding as a reason for his weakness as a father. He was too concerned with earning a living and creating prosperity for his kids rather than building their spiritual life. But in the end the father realizes that spirituality and hopes to pass it on the the little child. This is the child's true babtism! Now I think it all fits!!:)
I will go and find it in my backup file and be back. I will however, post this first, because I don't want to lose it like last night's.Quote:
Ok I'm ready for the next part. :)
The Rest of the Text:
Aha, now I see that Hilda does not know about the baker apparently - that he is the father of the child. Why would she say to Emma (the baby's mother) this if she knew? Or is she really that callous and unfeeling?Quote:
The minister, unaware of the feelings of a father, knelt in trouble, hearing without understanding the special language of fatherhood. Miss Rowbotham alone felt and understood a little. Her heart began to flutter; she was in pain. The two younger daughters kneeled unhearing, stiffened and impervious. Bertha was thinking of the baby; and the younger mother thought of the father of her child, whom she hated. There was a clatter in the scullery. There the youngest son made as much noise as he could, pouring out the water for his wash, muttering in deep anger:
"Blortin', slaverin' old fool!"
And while the praying of his father continued, his heart was burning with rage. On the table was a paper bag. He picked it up and read, "John Berryman--Bread, Pastries, etc." Then he grinned with a grimace. The father of the baby was baker's man at Berryman's. The prayer went on in the middle kitchen. Laurie Rowbotham gathered together the mouth of the bag, inflated it, and burst it with his fist. There was a loud report. He grinned to himself. But he writhed at the same time with shame and fear of his father.
The father broke off from his prayer; the party shuffled to their feet. The young mother went into the scullery.
"What art doin', fool?" she said.
The collier youth tipped the baby under the chin, singing:
"Pat-a-cake, pat-a-cake, baker's man,
Bake me a cake as fast as you can. . . ."
The mother snatched the child away. "Shut thy mouth," she said, the colour coming into her cheek.
"Prick it and stick it and mark it with P,
And put it i' th' oven for baby an' me. . . ."
He grinned, showing a grimy, and jeering and unpleasant red mouth and white teeth.
"I s'll gi'e thee a dab ower th' mouth," said the mother of the baby grimly. He began to sing again, and she struck out at him.
"Now what's to do?" said the father, staggering in.
The youth began to sing again. His sister stood sullen and furious.
"Why, does that upset you?" asked the eldest Miss Rowbotham, sharply, of Emma the mother. "Good gracious, it hasn't improved your temper."
Miss Bertha came in, and took the bonny baby.
The father sat big and unheeding in his chair, his eyes vacant, his physique wrecked. He let them do as they would, he fell to pieces. And yet some power, involuntary, like a curse, remained in him. The very ruin of him was like a lodestone that held them in its control. The wreck of him still dominated the house, in his dissolution even he compelled their being. They had never lived; his life, his will had always been upon them and contained them. They were only half-individuals.
The day after the christening he staggered in at the doorway declaring, in a loud voice, with joy in life still: "The daisies light up the earth, they clap their hands in multitudes, in praise of the morning." And his daughters shrank, sullen.
This line also stands out to me:Quote:
"Why, does that upset you?" asked the eldest Miss Rowbotham, sharply, of Emma the mother. "Good gracious, it hasn't improved your temper."
You know the father also could have forced his way with the youngest daughter. Maybe she was not strong enough or smart enough to stay out of trouble. We really don't know what her circumstances with the father were to begin with. We do know that now she hates him. That could also be for another reason - the opposite...she could feel abandoned by him, is she had cared for him at one time. Hate is a strong emotion, unlike an apathy towards him or plainly not caring for him. To me hate seems to indicate that once she did love the man or thought she did. Of couser, all of the above is merely conjecture on my part.Quote:
....and the younger mother thought of the father of her child, whom she hated.
Hey, did everyone know that they can vote on this thread - I found that at the top yesterday - "Rate Thread". I was wondering why some threads have 5 stars, and ours didn't have any, with this many posts - over 2000 now. Then I saw that one had to vote on the thread.
Well, every vote counts, so please do vote for our great thread, everyone...rah rah!
I did find her reaction to be a bit currious, as if she did not know the baker was the father why did she behave the way she did with him? Though her reaction to Emma now, might suggest that the Emma was the one who rejected the father. As Hilda could be questioning why she should become so upset when she was the one who made the choice, and put herself in that posistion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Emma's feelings are really not all that reliable though. She throws the word hate around an awful, to a degree which I think really lessoned her use of it here. Emma seems to just be a generally angery person. After seeing her general behaior throughout the story, I did not find the use of hate here to be so very strong, or to really stand out, becasue well it just seemed typical of Emma at ths point that she would hate him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I do not think there is anything in the story to suggest that Emma was raped, and I really do not think that is intended within the story. And if he did force himself upon her, I do not think he would have asked Hilda how she was doing.
When I have more time I will comment upon the secton of the story posted.
I don't know for sure what I think about the past - it really could have been either way. Maybe Hilda was always a little rude to the baker, who knows?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
It is true that she is angry and upset, but this particular passage just seemed to stand out to me for some reason. I suppose because of Hilda's question.Quote:
Emma's feelings are really not all that reliable though. She throws the word hate around an awful, to a degree which I think really lessoned her use of it here. Emma seems to just be a generally angery person. After seeing her general behaior throughout the story, I did not find the use of hate here to be so very strong, or to really stand out, becasue well it just seemed typical of Emma at ths point that she would hate him.
I didn't say or imply rape. If you want to be technical it could be date rape. The man could have just been coercive and forced his sexuality on her against her true wishes. In "Tess of the D'Urbervilles" by Hardy, Alex takes advantage of Tess and she gets pregnant as a result. That does not stop Alex from asking about her or later pursuing her, even against Tess's wishes.Quote:
I do not think there is anything in the story to suggest that Emma was raped, and I really do not think that is intended within the story. And if he did force himself upon her, I do not think he would have asked Hilda how she was doing.
Ok, good.Quote:
When I have more time I will comment upon the secton of the story posted.
To me saying "he forced himself" upon her is implying rape. The way I see it, either she consented to it or she did not consent. And if she did consent to it, no matter the circumstances she beares reponseablity for what happend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I found this interesting, why is it that Hilda alone understands what the father says? Is it becasue she has now taken on so much of the reponsebality of the family. Hilda does not seem to be much better then the others. She never steps in on the fathers behalf, and treats everyone in a sort of uppity scolding way.Quote:
The minister, unaware of the feelings of a father, knelt in trouble, hearing without understanding the special language of fatherhood. Miss Rowbotham alone felt and understood a little. Her heart began to flutter; she was in pain.
Here again we can see the total disregaurd the others have for thier father, they do not even listen to him while he is speaking but are pre-occupied within thier own thoughts, not caring what is happening around them.Quote:
The two younger daughters kneeled unhearing, stiffened and impervious. Bertha was thinking of the baby; and the younger mother thought of the father of her child, whom she hated. There was a clatter in the scullery.
Considering that within the story he appears to be the only son, I just found it odd how they worded it here "the youngest son" as there is no mention of any other brothers within the house.Quote:
There the youngest son made as much noise as he could, pouring out the water for his wash, muttering in deep anger:
Considering how inffectual the father appears to be in the household I found it interesting how the brother here states he has fear of the father, while the women boss the father about like a child.Quote:
And while the praying of his father continued, his heart was burning with rage. On the table was a paper bag. He picked it up and read, "John Berryman--Bread, Pastries, etc." Then he grinned with a grimace. The father of the baby was baker's man at Berryman's. The prayer went on in the middle kitchen. Laurie Rowbotham gathered together the mouth of the bag, inflated it, and burst it with his fist. There was a loud report. He grinned to himself. But he writhed at the same time with shame and fear of his father.
And I cannot really blame him for treating the ceremony as a joke, considering they started without him, it seems he was not really included and well the father and perhaps Hilda are the only ones who are taking it seriously anyway. Bertha and Emma could really careless, and the preacher does not seem as if he truly wants to be there.
Considering the tension between Hilda and the Baker at the begining of the story, this does seem a bit odd and I am not sure entierly what to make of it.Quote:
"Why, does that upset you?" asked the eldest Miss Rowbotham, sharply, of Emma the mother. "Good gracious, it hasn't improved your temper."
And I was not sure ezactly what the meant by "it hasn't improved your temper" what is she refering to by the "it" does she mean that motherhood has not improved her temper? Or the child?
I still don't mean rape. What I mean is coercian or persausion; therefore, she would have had the choice, but gave into the man and did not exercise her right to say 'no' to him. I don't believe any rape has been committed; I never said I did. It might now be that Emma realises her mistake, but doesn't really want to 'own up' to it, and therefore, shuts it out. Her anger might actually be channeled outward, when really it is all about herself and her anger at her own actions and shortcoming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Well, she is older, so she has known the father longer and maybe, when he was in a much better state of mind and temperment. I think now she would be the one to understand him, more so than her younger sibblings. Also, Hilda knows what it is like to have responsibilty and the father has certainly had that in his life. They both can relate in supporting the rest of the family.Quote:
I found this interesting, why is it that Hilda alone understands what the father says? Is it becasue she has now taken on so much of the reponsebality of the family. Hilda does not seem to be much better then the others. She never steps in on the fathers behalf, and treats everyone in a sort of uppity scolding way.
Perhaps. They do seem to see him as an object or an annoyance and not really a father or someone liked, let alone loved.Quote:
Here again we can see the total disregaurd the others have for thier father, they do not even listen to him while he is speaking but are pre-occupied within thier own thoughts, not caring what is happening around them.
There could be another son, just because he is not mentioned, doesn't mean there could not be one son working or out somewhere. I think most of the story focus on the women - the sisters.Quote:
Considering that within the story he appears to be the only son, I just found it odd how they worded it here "the youngest son" as there is no mention of any other brothers within the house.
I don't think that so unusual. Sometimes fathers will indulge daughters, but be harder on sons. I have seen this in many families. It just operates that way, in many dysfunctional families.Quote:
Considering how inffectual the father appears to be in the household I found it interesting how the brother here states he has fear of the father, while the women boss the father about like a child.
Maybe he never expressed a desire to attend the christening; did that ever dawn on you? Maybe he is 'crashing the party', so to speak.Quote:
And I cannot really blame him for treating the ceremony as a joke, considering they started without him, it seems he was not really included and well the father and perhaps Hilda are the only ones who are taking it seriously anyway. Bertha and Emma could really careless, and the preacher does not seem as if he truly wants to be there.
Nor I....Maybe Virgil has some idea on that.Quote:
Considering the tension between Hilda and the Baker at the begining of the story, this does seem a bit odd and I am not sure entierly what to make of it.
I think she means 'motherhood'....but then again she could be referring to the child as 'it'. If so that would be sad.Quote:
And I was not sure ezactly what the meant by "it hasn't improved your temper" what is she refering to by the "it" does she mean that motherhood has not improved her temper? Or the child?
This may be true, but inspite of his moment of fear, he still calls his father a fool, and his father clearly does not repremend him in anyway either for his disresepct to him or his genreal behavior and the way he treats his sisters. The father in his usual nature does nothing but let the others do as they please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
If he is "crashing" the party I cannot really blame him. He does not seem to stand much of a chance in that family. This is one case where the more I read of the story the more I grew to dislike the characters. I truly did not start out not liking anyone, but now I am finding the women progreassively more dislikable. The father is growing to be my favorite character and with sisters like his, I can understand why the brother acts as he does. And well it is normal for a brother to taunt his sisters anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Of course I was sincere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
IIt was a combination of putting some of my thoughts with some of yours and I think we figured this story out. :)Quote:
was not sure exactly that I was explaining my thoughts clearly. I do think the women strong or portrayed that way but then again in all of Lawrence's work I see him portraying women with strength and so I did not find that particularly peculiar in this story. I do think the husband was strong in areas - such as providing for his family and earning a good living but he seemed to have missed out, as you said or implied on his lack of instilling the spirituality in his children that would make them compassionate and understanding human beings. I think, now in retrospect, her realises this short coming and how weak he was in this area. Children need more that mere providing for - the need nurturing and a sense of values and I would surmise he overlooked this part of his parenting. In this way the father is weak or was weak with them. Perhaps he even indulged them instead of guiding them for the future. If he raised the family without his wife - say she died awhile back, then he was focused on providing. Most men are; but he now realises he has failed in some aspect of their upbringing. He is certainly trying to redeem himself by the prayer and the admission of his faults and now looking to the grandson to be his salvation or redeption. Thus this prayer for the babe comes out in an emotional but strong manner.
I've been saying that from the very beginning. :D Does anyone liste:Dn to me? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Just voted for five stars. :)Quote:
Hey, did everyone know that they can vote on this thread - I found that at the top yesterday - "Rate Thread". I was wondering why some threads have 5 stars, and ours didn't have any, with this many posts - over 2000 now. Then I saw that one had to vote on the thread.
I agree, there is nothing to suggest rape. I don't think you can make that jump. There doesn't seem to be any allusion to Tess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Not sure why Hilda would understand somewhat, but Lawrence makes it this way. I don't think it has too much significance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Hmm, that is odd. I read it as he's the youngest. Perhaps a little slip on Lawrence's part.Quote:
Considering that within the story he appears to be the only son, I just found it odd how they worded it here "the youngest son" as there is no mention of any other brothers within the house.
That is interesting. I think it suggests the son will be even weaker than the father.Quote:
Considering how inffectual the father appears to be in the household I found it interesting how the brother here states he has fear of the father, while the women boss the father about like a child.
Not sure I agree with that. The son was working, which of course is replicating the sins of the father: working instead of concern with his spiritual needs.Quote:
And I cannot really blame him for treating the ceremony as a joke, considering they started without him, it seems he was not really included and well the father and perhaps Hilda are the only ones who are taking it seriously anyway. Bertha and Emma could really careless, and the preacher does not seem as if he truly wants to be there.
Frankly Janine if Lawrence meant this that it would be bringing in themes that aren't in the rest of the story. There is nothing to suggest that it wasn't mutual passion, and given how strong Emma is it woud not surprise me if she initiated it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I guess there could be.Quote:
There could be another son, just because he is not mentioned, doesn't mean there could not be one son working or out somewhere. I think most of the story focus on the women - the sisters.
Hmm, not quite sure either what to make of it. It does seem that she dosn't know what happened between Emma and the baker.Quote:
Nor I....Maybe Virgil has some idea on that.
Quote:
"Why, does that upset you?" asked the eldest Miss Rowbotham, sharply, of Emma the mother. "Good gracious, it hasn't improved your temper."
[QUOTE=Dark Muse;626002]This may be true, but inspite of his moment of fear, he still calls his father a fool, and his father clearly does not repremend him in anyway either for his disresepct to him or his genreal behavior and the way he treats his sisters. The father in his usual nature does nothing but let the others do as they please. [quote]
Well, I think his father is resigned now to being bullied or being in this reduced condition with his degenerative illness and so he has a lot of apathy. 'What good would reprimanding him do now' - that is probaby the father's attitude. He has kind of given in and given up.
Well, not one has to like anyone in the story. Back to your characteristic dislike for characters, Dark Muse.;). I can't say though that I warmed up to any of the characters myself this time around. The value of the story for me does not really depend on that aspect.Quote:
If he is "crashing" the party I cannot really blame him. He does not seem to stand much of a chance in that family. This is one case where the more I read of the story the more I grew to dislike the characters. I truly did not start out not liking anyone, but now I am finding the women progreassively more dislikable. The father is growing to be my favorite character and with sisters like his, I can understand why the brother acts as he does. And well it is normal for a brother to taunt his sisters anyway.
Whoa, Virgil, what happened here - you posted twice while I was posting to- ok....I get it. You are quick. Also I just asked you in email to post something and then I saw your first post - sorry about that.Quote:
DM.
Oh thank you so much. I appreciate that, coming from you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yes, as they always say "two heads are better than one!".:DQuote:
It was a combination of putting some of my thoughts with some of yours and I think we figured this story out. :)
I listen, but I guess I just did not recall you saying it; that was awhile back....Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Great! Campaign of votes for our thread, ok? I will ask some friends of mine to vote for it.Quote:
Just voted for five stars. :)
No, I was not exactly saying that and if I was, I guess that was a bad example. I just meant to point out that, even after she broke off with Alex, it did not prevent him from persuing her later on. I don't believe Emma was raped, but it might have been like with Jesse in "Sons and Lovers" where the male was dominent and wanting her to give in to him sexually. Emma could be a flirt too but not really want to go all the way or he could be older and she was under his influence. Obviously they were not right for each other - they parted so it did not work out for them. That is where I was going with that statement.Quote:
I agree, there is nothing to suggest rape. I don't think you can make that jump. There doesn't seem to be any allusion to Tess.
Well, I think it has some minor significance, but it is not that important. Maybe it just showed, that Hilda could have a shred of feeling and understanding for someone else.Quote:
Not sure why Hilda would understand somewhat, but Lawrence makes it this way. I don't think it has too much significance.
Will the older brother please stand up.:lol:....hummm... Maybe it is a misprint or a typo.;)Quote:
Hmm, that is odd. I read it as he's the youngest. Perhaps a little slip on Lawrence's part.
Probably so; that is a good point.Quote:
That is interesting. I think it suggests the son will be even weaker than the father.
Oh, hadn't thought of it that way, really. Also, he came home late and when the christening had already taken place. He was outside the sphere of things, so to speak....so he was not involved or particating in the spirtual business of the family.Quote:
Not sure I agree with that. The son was working, which of course is replicating the sins of the father: working instead of concern with his spiritual needs.
Well, it all conjecture - who really knows. I just thought the girl is 'young' and seems lazy, so I don't really know.Quote:
Frankly Janine if Lawrence meant this that it would be bringing in themes that aren't in the rest of the story. There is nothing to suggest that it wasn't mutual passion, and given how strong Emma is it woud not surprise me if she initiated it.
At least, that is what I thought....or a typo...OR..... maybe he meant it literally - like "the youngest (the) son. Let's not crucify poor Lawrence over it. Maybe he left out the the comma and 'the'.Quote:
I guess there could be.
It seemed that way to me.Quote:
Hmm, not quite sure either what to make of it. It does seem that she dosn't know what happened between Emma and the baker.
I found the most interesting part of this last section was the conclusion:
After that little scene with the son and Emma and Hilda, the focus returns to the father. Lawrence could have ended the staory with a surprise ending of revealing that the father was the baker. But he didn't. And we see the father in his body, "physique," in dissolution. Interesting that Lawrence calls only the father as having lived; the rest are "only half-individuals."Quote:
The father sat big and unheeding in his chair, his eyes vacant, his physique wrecked. He let them do as they would, he fell to pieces. And yet some power, involuntary, like a curse, remained in him. The very ruin of him was like a lodestone that held them in its control. The wreck of him still dominated the house, in his dissolution even he compelled their being. They had never lived; his life, his will had always been upon them and contained them. They were only half-individuals.
The day after the christening he staggered in at the doorway declaring, in a loud voice, with joy in life still: "The daisies light up the earth, they clap their hands in multitudes, in praise of the morning." And his daughters shrank, sullen.
But then Lawrence fast forwards past the Christening scene to the next day, and he brings into the house the that religious element: "The daisies light up the earth, they clap their hands in multitudes, in praise of the morning." This is Lawrence's religion, the natural world alive. Notice also it's the flowery world, but it's nature that contains spirituality. Lawrence, at his core, is really a Romantic in his world view. Notice also that the daughters "shrank" and were "sullen" over it.
Ok, I agree with most of what you said here but I think you left out one vital part of that line:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
"They had never lived; his life, his will had always been upon them and contained them. They were only half-individuals."
Doesn't this say to you, that the father was willful at one time and exerted his will over his children? Now he may be broken and withdrawn, and even docile, and under their control and 'will'; but this line suggests to me that it was not always that way for this family. Could it be, that now the roles are somewhat reversed?
I also think the word 'lodestone' is an interesting word and used well here. I am going now to look up the exact meaning of that word.
Yes, the last part after the day of the Christening, reverses everything and seems to bring this feeling of hope. Can it be that the new life of the baby is related to the flowers of the earth and this child, brought out by his Christening, also brings new hope?
Yeah, we have our 5 stars showing. I can't believe it. Wonder who else voted? Maybe it only takes a few to get those nice shining gold stars. I am so proud of my participation in this thread and proud of all of your participation, as well. Hey, we did pretty good didn't we? We have 2388 posts! That, to me, is super cool!
No question, that is a very important sentence at the end there. I didn't touch on it because i don't know how to explain it. The concept of "will" is very oimportant in Lawrentian thought, and is almost always a negative. Flowers have no will, that is Lawrence's ideal. Apparently the father's will is what has caused the dysfunctionality. But we don't really see it in the story and is almost a last minute add on. If I wqere to speculate, I would guess that the father's will to have a properous home is at the root cause of the dysfunctionality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Quote:
I also think the word 'lodestone' is an interesting word and used well here. I am going now to look up the exact meaning of that word.Quote:
The very ruin of him was like a lodestone that held them in its control.
I guess Lawrence means it as an attracting force. It's symbolic for his will I think.Quote:
lode·stone /ˈloʊdˌstoʊn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lohd-stohn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a variety of magnetite that possesses magnetic polarity and attracts iron.
2. a piece of this serving as a magnet.
3. something that attracts strongly.
Not sure about bringing hope. Perhaps for the father. The daughters "shrink" from it. I think the father has reached an enlightenment, almost a transfiguration, if you will. ;) But not the daughters.Quote:
Yes, the last part after the day of the Christening, reverses everything and seems to bring this feeling of hope. Can it be that the new life of the baby is related to the flowers of the earth and this child, brought out by his Christening, also brings new hope?
Yes, I was thinking about the 'will' and how often that appears in Lawrence's writing. I think you were the first to point that out to me and the group. It really does make more sense to me now. Often in this type of family unit, with 3 woman and one(?) brother and a father - the father may be prominent at one time and exert his will over them; say when they were children and under his rule. Even now the youngest - the son - is afraid of him. The daughters have outgrown that fear, with the appearance of this man's illness, into more of a person needing to be watched over and protected. The roles have reversed. The daughters now treat him as though they are his caretakers, even his mother. This is not so unusual in families where older adults become ill or have a degnerative condition. Often too it is necessary; you saw how he burned himself. If left on his own entirely he could cause himself more harm perhaps. The fact that they have a rough manner and seem angry, in their treatment of him, also speaks to me. It says that they are feel deep 'resentful' now that they have his care on their hands. This family does not seem to have much compassion for one another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Oh, thanks for looking that up. I forgot myself and did not venture to do so last night. I got distracted with other things. Yes, I would think that is what he meant - the attracting force being his 'will'. In someways by his passionate speech after the Christening he was exerting his 'will' upon them. All of them shrank and were embarrassed concerning that speech.Quote:
I guess Lawrence means it as an attracting force. It's symbolic for his will I think.
I agree and I think that is basically what I meant. Still the tone at the end was more of one of 'hope' than dispair, especially compared to his former speech.Quote:
Not sure about bringing hope. Perhaps for the father. The daughters "shrink" from it. I think the father has reached an enlightenment, almost a transfiguration, if you will. ;) But not the daughters.
Where is everyone??? I wanted to finish up this story soon. It is already October. Helloooooo, anybody there?
Hey, I am still here, I just got a little behind
Well, Dark Muse, you are always here somewhere...;)..usually when I post a call you do respond..thanks for that. I am wondering where Virgil ran off to. If I say his name he might also arrive and comment on what I wrote last; I guess mostly that post was directed at his comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I am anxious now to put this story to rest. Then, I will periodically, post interesting things about Lawrence, in general, to keep this thread active; that is until we return in November for a brand new story. I have to think about what that one will be; but it should not be difficult, since I have read many more SS's that we still have not discussed. Lawrence wrote a ton of stories, so it is not hard to find a good one or one of interest.
Hehe yes, I usually am around somewhere
Yes, and how many social groups have you started now and how many new threads recently? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
LOL, I know, far too many.
No wonder you are behind in here....they call it distracted....;):lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
LOL, no acutally the reason I got behind is I am back in school now, and you and Virgil got ahead of me one of the days, while I was in class. When I got home, there was a ton of new posts here LOL.
The social groups I usually just pop in on when I am sitting here without anything else going on.
I don't have anything more to say on the story. If there is a comment that striks me one way or the other by someone else I may repsond to it. Otherwise I feel we have done the story. :)
So Virgil, does that mean you do agree with my post below (was from above)?
Basically I was waiting for your response on this one thought of mine.Quote:
Yes, I was thinking about the 'will' and how often that appears in Lawrence's writing. I think you were the first to point that out to me and the group. It really does make more sense to me now. Often in this type of family unit, with 3 woman and one(?) brother and a father - the father may be prominent at one time and exert his will over them; say when they were children and under his rule. Even now the youngest - the son - is afraid of him. The daughters have outgrown that fear, with the appearance of this man's illness, into more of a person needing to be watched over and protected. The roles have reversed. The daughters now treat him as though they are his caretakers, even his mother. This is not so unusual in families where older adults become ill or have a degnerative condition. Often too it is necessary; you saw how he burned himself. If left on his own entirely he could cause himself more harm perhaps. The fact that they have a rough manner and seem angry, in their treatment of him, also speaks to me. It says that they are feel deep 'resentful' now that they have his care on their hands. This family does not seem to have much compassion for one another.
I guess I would agree with most of that. You speculate a little more than I feel comfortable. I prefer to only go on what the author shows us. But everything you say is possible.
Yes I agree with you there Virgil I usually always try to just stick with what is acutally shown within the story
Oh good, glad that you both responded and I will agree with you; I was indeed speculating somewhat. I guess I like to make my own conclusions; my imagination runs away with me sometimes.
Soooo - I suppose now we are officially on break for the month. Please check in from time to time, since I will post some filler material about Lawrence that should interest you. This has been a great group with many good discussions. I hope soon, when we resume in November, it will continue as enthusiastically.
Hey, everyone, when we reach 3000 posts we will have to have a cake!