Come on guys, any thoughts on operatic translations into English, do you think it's much of a problem or is it not really an issue?
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Come on guys, any thoughts on operatic translations into English, do you think it's much of a problem or is it not really an issue?
Speaking of unsung composers, Nikos Skalkottas of Greece never got the attention he was due. His complex blend of Modernist methods and Greek music is amazing.
I just came across Skalkottas' work myself... probably over at Talk Classical. I am intrigued and have added a few works to my wish list after listening to samples on Amazon.
Come on guys, any thoughts on operatic translations into English, do you think it's much of a problem or is it not really an issue?
Operatic translations... Hmmm? I tend to go for operas in the original language... but there are instances historically in which the composer actually created a version in a second language. Off the top of my head I know that Gluck's Orpheo exists in French and Italian... and I have a collection of arias sung by the inimitable Fritz Wunderlich in which he sings some well-known Italian arias in German. And then there's Schubert's Ave Maria which was written in German, Latin... and I've heard in English. As a reader of poetry in translation I have long argued that translation brings a work which might otherwise be unavailable to a new audience. If it is done well, it is not unlike a transcription in music... from piano to violin, shall we say? One will need to rewrite the score... perhaps even change the notes... but in the end (hopefully) the music remains.
I can see nothing wrong with translating more operatic scores... especially when one considers that in many cases they do not stand up well as brilliant works of literature on their own. I can see nothing wrong with translating the recitatives and the unaccompanied dialog, especially. Somehow, however, I imagine that the music to an aria owes something to the specific words of the given original language and it would seemingly be incredibly difficult to translate these while retaining a similar flow of sounds... stresses of accent... vowels... consonants, etc...
Thanks, you've sort of confirmed what I was thinking here a little. I've got a chance to see either Don Pasquale, The Marriage of Figaro or A Midsummer Night's Dream as done by the English Touring Opera, performed in English. I'm going for The Marriage of Figaro though I would have preferred to see this in the original language with the aid of stage sub-titles, though really I haven't got the option to be that fussy when it comes down to it - we're not flooded with operas at the moment - at least it looks like a decent production.
Neely... how far are you from London? I looked up Sheffield on the map and see it is a good bit to the north... but there was no key as to distance.
It is about 160 miles, if you can get a direct train it will take about 2-3 hours. Are you thinking of Operas in London, might be an idea? I've only been to London once as it happens - a trip to see Romeo and Juliet one time, it probably comes down to cost though, but I've heard that students can get a deal on the trains.
London is only 160 miles away and you've only been there once??!! That blows my mind. I guess it is just that America is such a car-based culture and so huge comparatively that such distances seem like nothing. 3 years ago I lived some 40 miles away from my work and drove that distance twice a day. Pittsburgh is probably about 150 miles away and I have bee there 5 or 10 times... and certainly their art collections cannot match London. Washington D.C. and New York are both about 500 miles away and I probably visit them each 2 or 3 times a year. If I was 160 miles from London I'd be there virtually every other weekend. Certainly, London must have the greatest musical scene in the world. Looking at the various orchestras, operas, etc... I don't think that even Vienna can compete.
Yes that’s a fair point I suppose. I still tend to think that London is far away, though when you think it is just over 3 hours on a train there really isn’t much excuse for not getting down their more often. Certainly I’ve a strong desire to get the art galleries and the theatres, particularly The Globe, as well as the tourist things such as the Tower of London and Parliament even, at least once.
I think it is partly to do with having other places of interest much closer to home though as well, stuff that the kids will probably better enjoy like the Peak District National Park which is not 10 miles away, really there are loads of fabulous places there of outstanding natural beauty, which is perhaps second best only to the Lake District in the entire country. http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl...EQsAQwAwWithin In the Peaks there are tons of little villages and picturesque views, picnic spots, walks, cycle routes, lakes, reservoirs and stately homes such as Chatsworth House:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatsworth_House
Which has been used to film various Austen productions – really the house inside is quite stunning - you can stay there all day and enjoy the interior and exterior, relax in the garden by the fountain and pretend you are Mr Darcy and let the kids roam a little. Also there’s the likes of Haddon Hall http://www.haddonhall.co.uk/ which is a medieval manor house quite stunning but on a smaller scale to Chatsworth. As well as this there are 10s of other such houses, ruins such as Castleton, which is more or less a second home, certainly in the summer:
http://www.derbyshireuk.net/castleton.html
So much so that you never really get bored of just being around these places.
On top of this about 45 miles away, one hour by train lies York which we visit again quite regularly. The museums there are quite good and the medieval feel of the Shambles never loses its appeal.http://www.insideyork.co.uk/shambles
Then the likes of North Yorkshire, the coastal areas, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, counties like Shropshire are within reach (though not been there yet) as well as the wonderful Lakes District etc, are all quite close by train so there are plenty of distractions and places to visit which has sought to keep me from London in the past - though this year hopefully I’ll get down more often.
Edit: Oh, and I must get to Oxford and Cambridge, so I can hang out with the clever people and soak up the atmosphere...
The question of mobility probably has much to do with the scale of Europe and the fact that so many cities are packed closely together. We have so many vast sprawling spaces here that European visitors are always stunned by... and in comparison to the lands west of the Mississippi we are are crowded. The first time my wife flew to New York she looked out the window and commented that it was such a shame... "all this land ruined by strip mining"... until she realized that all that "black" beneath us in Pennsylvania was forest... not coal.:hand: The drive from Cleveland to New York is about 500 miles (around 8 hours by car, or 45 minutes by plane) and following route 80... the major interstate highway... one will not encounter a single major city along the entire route until one hits the surrounding counties of New York. This immense scale is one of the things that has led to big sprawling houses and huge automobiles (one must be comfortable on these long drives). Its certainly has much to do with defining who we are: where Europe has the history... the endless monuments and artifacts... we have the endless wonders of nature. Emerson, Walt Whitman, the Hudson River Valley painters... and even the sprawling canvases of the Abstract Expressionists are surely rooted in this. And here I am... a typical American... far more seduced by the cultural side of this Culture/Nature divide.:sosp:
I'm currently going through a Russian fix. I just finished Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto and now I'm listening to a collection of his songs. I've always had a mixed reaction to the Russians. I often find them too emotional... to lax... too sprawling (perhaps this relates to that Sprawling Nature vs Structured Culture dichotomy). Or perhaps I heard the stuff too often as a teenager. Either way... I have no doubts about the merit of Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto... or his songs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh4efVD3R_E&translated=1
Two of my most recent CD purchases resulted in a spectacular padding out of my collection of French Impressionist music. For whatever reason, Sony has been marketing boxed sets of Pierre Boulez' inimitable recordings at grossly undervalued prices. One can also pick up on his performances of Berg, Schoenberg, Webern, Carter, Mahler, and his own music if your tastes lean in that direction. I ordered the sets of Debussy and Ravel. The sets number 4 and 5 discs respectively, with the Debussy set including the entire recording of his opera, Pelléas et Mélisande, which I have wanted to get my hands on for some time. I believe I paid about $10 US for the Ravel and $13 for he Debussy through secondary dealers on Amazon.com. That's less than many single discs go for. Considering the fact that these recordings are second to none (although Charles Dutoit's recordings are of equal merit) and include recordings with my own beloved Cleveland Orchestra (as well as the New York Philharmonic and the BBC Symphonu Orchestra... among other ensembles) I cannot recommend these highly enough for anyone interested:
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Beside my Leopardi book arriving today the federal income tax return cam as well. It's something like Christmas in March.:banana: As a result I went a little nuts and bought a whole slew of music from secondary dealers on Amazon... including a goodly amount of Mozart. I think perhaps I'm undergoing an experience not unlike the proverbial prodigal son... returning home after straying... or in this case... returning to my first musical loves after having spent so much time recently exploring modern, contemporary, and unknown composers. I have long been enamored of Mozart's Great Mass in C and his marvelous Requiem... but for some reason I have never explored the rest of his choral oeuvre... in spite of being an absolute choral fanatic... and in spite of exploring the choral works of Mozart's great peer, Haydn, in greater depth. As such, I began by rectifying this shortcoming with this purchase:
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After that I focused upon the operas. With the exception of his piano concertos and a few other works such as the clarinet quintet and clarinet concerto, I have long felt that Mozart's greatest achievement by far is to be found in his operas... so I decided to look into three collections of his opera arias by three of the most exquisite singers:
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Kozena and Bartloi are surely two of the finest and most intelligent singers performing today... while Lucia Popp was one of those shooting stars who tragically died far, far too young.:frown5:
Then completely loosing all sense of self control I ended up looking at Rene Jacobs' HIP (historically informed performances) recordings of Mozart's great late operas. Building upon a profound study of the music, instrumentation, and performance style of Mozart's age, these recording employ period instruments, appropriate scaled orchestration (stripped back down from the grandiose orchestrations that have little to do with the orchestra as Mozart understood it, and much more to do with the sprawling orchestras of Wagner, Mahler, Richard Strauss, and the late Romantic era. The music is also performed with a certain "muscularity"... and a sense of humor and fun... rather than with such reverent delicacy which led Maria Callas to comment that so many sing Mozart as if they were standing on tip-toe. These recordings were all highly recommended and I had a chance to listen to them in part and to discuss their merits with an HIP fan over on an internet music forum. I found myself tor between the three great late opera (Jacobs has yet to record The Magic Flute) and so my solution...
buy all three!!:yikes::blush2::ack2::banana:
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Anticipating their arrival, I've spent the afternoon listening to this equally... if quite different... recording:
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I am always left stunned by the final scene in which the Duke asks for and is given absolution for all his philandering. I am always reminded of Salieri's description of this scene in the film, Amadeus as God offering absolution to the whole world through this unstoppable, perfect music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjQFYaCwOvM
It always sends chills up my spine.
Oh, wonderful looking CD covers, surely worth the purchase just for that alone!
Having got my ticket for The Marriage of Figaro, which as I have left it late is just about on the roof, I've being listening and watching it over the last few days from a DVD production and online as well as various other pieces. (I still feel some of the beauty of the Italian is going to be lost in translation, but we'll see.)
Also attending a concert in a couple of weeks which includes Mozart's Oboe Concerto:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_l0Sg7yGw
Wagner's Lohengrin Preludes Act 1 and Act 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMtRof9qJG8
Tchaikovsky's Symphony No.4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-c1LLZaVCA
So, I've been listening to those too.
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The best stuff on this set is phenomenal. It's quite a task to take it all in, but I'm very impressed. Even when Bolcom's eclecticism gets the better of him, I have to give him credit for his audacity.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
When it all comes together, like on The Angel (Experience Vol. I Pt. 3), it's amazing.
Regards,
Istvan
I have been listening to classical music "seriously" since high-school. I truly began to build up a formidable music collection when I began working a "real job". My initial focus was to develop a sense of appreciation for the essentials from Vivaldi and Bach onward to the 20th century. I had some music post-Stravinsky (including Philip Glass, Gorecki, Copland, and a few others) but this aspect of my music collection remained in its infant stage until the last 3 or so years. Over the past year my focus has been greatly centered upon modern British and American composers. I came across several persons whose opinions on classical music I greatly respected who recommended Bolcom's Songs of Innocence and Experience. Considering the fact that William Blake is one of my absolute favorite artists/poets, I was greatly intrigued... but somewhat put off the idea of a 3-disc set by someone I had never heard of before. At some point last Spring I found this very set on sale from a secondary dealer on Amazon.com for a little over $4.00! I was unable to avoid it any longer, and so I ordered it.
I listened to it once all the way through... and was so impressed that I immediately gave it a second listening. Considering that I was just building my grasp of modern American classical music at the time I was not ready to declare the work an unqualified success... but I certainly found myself agreeing with others who suggested that the work was unquestionably Bolcom's masterpiece... and one of the greatest vocal works of the past several decades. There are but few new works that have so immediately grabbed my attention and impressed me to the degree that I wanted to listen to them again and again... almost as if to double check my first response.
Like I said, I like it a lot. Some of these are so well crafted that it's unfortunate they're such miniatures: "The Lilly" crams a lot of vocal, orchestral, and choral detail into a minute and a half, and doesn't seem overwrought.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
But let's be honest, the brilliance of so much of this set makes the glaring lapses in taste all the more painful. I'll give Bolcom the benefit of the doubt for not being reverent and playing it safe: putting "The Shepherd" in a country music setting at least makes sense, and the faux soul of "The Little Black Boy" is harmless. I realize there are domestic rather than artistic reasons for having his wife sing a cabaret version of "The Little Vagabond." However, "London" and the (ahem) reggae finale sound like something Andrew Lloyd Webber would have concocted.
Regards,
Istvan
However, "London" and the (ahem) reggae finale sound like something Andrew Lloyd Webber would have concocted.
Yes... there are glaring problematic sections... and in confronting these I think of Cervantes Don Quixote and the inclusion of Cervantes' egregiously bad poetry... not merely mediocre poetry... not poetry that simply fails to rise to the level of the book as a whole... but rather poetry that is embarrassingly... comically bad. Still... I find the whole quite impressive... and surely it never descends to the level of Karl Jenkins. I made the unfortunate choice of purchasing one of his choral works (a requiem?) after having read comments comparing him to Morten Lauridsen, Arvo Part, and John Tavener... all of whom I quite admire. Unfortunately, Jenkins is so comically bad it makes Lauridsen sound like Mozart or Bach.:yikes:
I don't know any classical artist or groups but strangely, when I'm driving to work or school, I find myself tuning the radio to the All Classical FM station. It's very soothing and it sounds beautiful, which is a nice change from the hardcore and rock on my iPod. It makes great driving music because I don't get so mad at all the slow/crazy drivers out there!
Well... let's just hope they don't put Stravinsky's Rite of Spring or one of Bartok's pieces on your radio station at drive time.:hand:
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Robert Hall Lewis is someone whose music has fascinated me lately, a composer with a very classical approach to modern orchestral sounds.
Motto, for orchestra (1980) Part I
Motto, for orchestra (1980) Part II
From the liner notes of this CD:
Lewis said that he adhered "to no particular school or system of composition" and that he considered himself to be an "independent maximalist." Lewis claimed that "it is very important that a composition have an original, distinctive character and an identity of its own, devoid of the obvious, derivative tendencies and commercial influences that surround us in much music today." His intent, he said, was to create a music of genuine interest to the listener, alternately surprising, provoking, soothing, stimulating and hopefully inspiring—an experience comparable to the limitless facets of existence.
Regards,
Istvan
I've been listening to some more modern and contemporary work for organ recently... pieces by Marcel Dupre and Peteris Vasks. I am especially intrigued with Vasks... who employs elements traditional harmony, atonalism or dissonance, folk music from his Baltic home, and Minimalism... without strictly adhering to any style. There is only one example of his organ music (Te Deum) to be found on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpEFk...eature=related
Other works that can be sampled online include a work for solo cello:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YAJwxJ58hA
the Musica Adventus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUbTY...eature=related
and part of a choral work, Dona Nobis Pacem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZsen...eature=related
I quite like the Robert Hall Lewis works. They have something of the lush and ever-expanding sonic landscape and aural textures of Tristan Murail's work... yet with a more traditional/classical underpinning. I will need to look into him in the future. I'm always on the lookout for intriguing newer work.
Ah, I thought I was attending the aforementioned opera tomorrow but I findies out it is not until the 30th of this month? I am not very good at maths. But now I have nothing to look forward to tomorrow.:bawling:
Opera is beginning to warm my toes, I must say. I think that it is a shame that real life does not resemble opera more. I’ve been musing on a line by Wilde which goes “the real life is the life we do not lead” (my emphasis) which is in reference to something else, but also seems appropriate in the sphere of this unreal world of fiery passion and beauty which seems so superior to the everyday. Really, I find it hard to get excited by anything that is supposed to be real these days...
Forgive me, I’m just musing out loud or turning into a complete aesthete or something...:brow:
Well... I'm currently listening to the same opera... Le Nozze di Figaro... in this new recording by Rene Jacobs on period instruments following a historically informed approach to the orchestral performance and singing:
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The recording is absolutely eye-opening!!:yesnod: Its incredibly fresh... muscular... and fun!... Yes! "fun". Maria Callas made the comment that too often singers approach Mozart as if singing on tip-toe. Today we might say they approach him as if they had a stick up their posteriors. In other words their reverence for Mozart keeps them from conveying the real drama... the audacity... the revolutionary and subversive aspects... and the sheer joy... the "fun". I can't wait to listen to Jacobs' Don Giovanni, and Cosi Fan Tutte... and I can't wit until he records The Magic Flute. Perhaps even more promising is the critical response to some of Jacob's recordings of Mozart's less-well-known operas, including Idomeneo and La clemenza di Tito... which are certainly as worthy as a good many of Gluck's or even Handel's operas... but have always been cursed by less-than-enthusiastic performances.
Sounds great. I'll have to look into that when I've exhausted the Naxos recordings. I quite like to see the performances as well though to get the whole picture, so I am currently borrowing or buying DVDs as much as I spare the time to do so. I’m just sticking with the “basics” at present the Mozart’s and Puccini’s etc, fabulous stuff.
:eek: Wow, at those prices, I think I'm going to go see about acquiring some Boulez recordings.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
Ah, Mozart! How can you go wrong? Reading about your recent Mozart opera purchases prompted me to go look at that section of my own music library where I made a shocking discovery! I apparently (I am not sure how!) have no recording of Don Giovanni! I guess I have enough excerpts from it on other opera CDs that I hadn't thought about it before. This, however, must be remedied immediately. I wondered if you, as musical reviewer extraordinaire and man possesser of what, given your pattern of acquisition, must be a truly impressive musical library, might have any thoughts as to which of the many DG recordings I should make my own. (Opinions from other erudite thread members also welcome).Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
That is a gorgeous passage. I agree. It gets you every time. Made me think of one of my favorite Mozart bass moments:Quote:
I am always left stunned by the final scene in which the Duke asks for and is given absolution for all his philandering. I am always reminded of Salieri's description of this scene in the film, Amadeus as God offering absolution to the whole world through this unstoppable, perfect music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjQFYaCwOvM
It always sends chills up my spine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_IaJDqz2Zo
I apparently (I am not sure how!) have no recording of Don Giovanni! I guess I have enough excerpts from it on other opera CDs that I hadn't thought about it before. This, however, must be remedied immediately. I wondered if you, as musical reviewer extraordinaire and man possesser of what, given your pattern of acquisition, must be a truly impressive musical library, might have any thoughts as to which of the many DG recordings I should make my own.
I have heard several recordings of Don Giovanni or parts thereof. I am an Karajan fan... but not in this instance... not for Mozart. There are several more "historical" recordings of real merit. The Josef Krips performance with Cesare Siepe and Walter Berry is particularly worthy... and at less then $10 through a secondary dealer... a real steal. But it is also over 50 years old and perhaps not a first choice (although I'm looking into it).
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Karl Böhm's recording is a good, solid first choice... a performance with the Vienna Phiharmonic, Sherill Milnes, Walter Berry, Peter Schreier, and Anna Tomowa-Sintow at the top of her game... and another grossly inexpensive choice at less than $13 from a secondary dealer. Of course DG (Deutsche Gramophon's) sound quality is second to none.
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Perhaps THE first choice, however, among older recordings is Carlo Maria Giulini's rightfully famous recording with the Philharmonicia Chorus and Orchestra and masterful singers Eberhard Waechter, Joan Sutherland, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, and Giuseppe Taddei. How could one go wrong with a young Sutherland and Elizabeth Schwarzkopf in her prime? This recording exists in several variations... and I am surprised it is not more gloriously packaged and promoted.
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Among newer recordings there seem to be but two worthy competitors: John Eliot Gardiner and Rene Jacobs. Gardiner's is a muscular (as always) crisp and modern HIP version of the opera that stresses the drama.
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Let's face it... Gardiner may be one of the best living conductors... perhaps THE best. Certainly he has almost assumed the mantle of Karajan as the conductor who cannot be ignored... who is either loved or hated. Personally... I am on the "love" side of the spectrum... to the point that he may be my single favorite living conductor. His recent recordings of Bach's entire cantatas are magnificent...
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... as are his recordings of Monteverdi's Orfeo, Haydn's Creation, Schumann's symphonies, Beethoven's symphonies, and a number of Handel's operas.
In spite of having said as much, among recent recordings of Don Giovanni, I would go with Rene Jacobs' version. One of the reviews on Amazon puts it quite well:
"Rene Jacobs is making us re-think what we consider to be "Mozartian." Years ago, Maria Callas criticized the habit performers have of singing and playing Mozart as though they were on their "tip-toes." Finally, Rene Jacobs gives us a reading that does not beat-around-the-bush with the mannered "tip-toed" singing and playing we are used to. Like his other Mozart releases for the Harmonia Mundi label, this one is dramatic: sometimes tender, sometimes bombastic, sometimes hilarious, sometimes austere and horrifying, full of that 18th century "Sturm und Drang" that Mozart was famed for.
Indeed, Rene Jacobs has said that in a recording his singers "must act using only their voice." And this is what they do. The result is 3-CDs full of music where you will never find yourself skipping over any recitatives. His characters are fully developed and fully acted, with the instrumental ensemble (especially the often overlooked fortepiano continuo in the dry recitatives) providing the perfect support for the action. This is true musical drama the Jacobs gives us.
Much credit goes to Jacob's casting decisions. I cannot begin to express how impressed I am with Alexandrina Pendatchanska in the role of Donna Elvira. After hearing her hot-red-blooded Vitellia in La Clemenza di Tito, I thought she would be perfect for the vengeful Donna Elvira, and here she is. I am excited to finally hear an Elvira who truly sounds as though she is vacillating between loving remorse, and vengeful, murderous hatred for Don Giovanni."
There's something to the sound quality... not merely the use of historically appropriate instruments and singing style... but also the muscularity and the nearness of sound that makes this an incredibly intimate listening experience.
Of one note... Don Giovanni exists in two very different versions: one for Prague and the other for Vienna. Most recordings combine the two into a single work. Jacobs chose to go with the Viennese version... but recognizing that this would involve abandoning a couple of arias (and who wishes to abandon anything by Mozart?), he adds these as part of an appendix at the end of the opera.
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Haydn? Any fans? I've been using that Classical Music Book St. Luke recommended awhile ago, so I've been going in order of the Top 50 list. I've been listening to Haydn's music and I find him him kind of blah, especially compared to Mozart, Beethoven, and Bach. Anyone else feel this way? Anyone want to tell me I'm insane and why?
Haydn is very different from Beethoven and so comparisons there are difficult. Of course anytime we make such comparisons we must remember that if we use the values of one era or style as the standard measure it will certainly result in a skewed comparison. For example, if we compare Rembrandt to Matisse the comparison will surely not be fair if the standards we use are those of Rembrandt's era (anatomical accuracy in drawing, realism, the illusion of three-dimensional form). By the same token, Rembrandt might look rather "dull" by the standards of Modernism: his use of color is tame, he's not incredibly inventive in form, etc...
Haydn was one of the two central figures of the Classical era along with Mozart. Mozart was undoubtedly the greater composer and his early death was one of the greatest losses of Western music. Having said this much, Haydn still stands as one of the towering figures of classical music... not far beneath the "Three Immortals": Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart. Classicism in music was sandwiched between the Baroque and the Romantic eras... both of which were far more about virtuosity. Classicism distilled, codified, or "simplified" musical forms so that the listener could virtually grasp the whole of a work in his or her mind. Perhaps one might think of how we can grasp a sonnet in the same manner... how it sets up certain expectations and limitations... but how these may result in the most masterfully original results in the hands of the best poets.
Admittedly, this era is one of the most challenging for many listeners... especially those familiar with the more blatantly outgoing music of the Romantic and Post-Romantic era which in many ways still dominates the airwaves of classical radio and stands as the established vocabulary of most film music. Where the Baroque has Bach, Vivaldi, Handel, Biber, Telemann, and several other composers well-known to aficionados of the era, and Romanticism has an endless array of "greats" (Schumann, Schubert, Chopin, Wagner, Brahms, Bruckner, late Beethoven, Richard Strauss, Mahler, etc...) the Classical era is often imagined as divided solely between Mozart and Haydn. In a way, the classical era strikes me as not unlike the classicism of 18th century poets who are often quite ignored and underrated in comparison with the later Romantics... but these composers... including Haydn... certainly grow upon the listener who is willing to put forth the effort.
Haydn can also be initially difficult to appreciate as a result of the immense scale of his oeuvre which makes it challenging to know where to begin. Beethoven wrote but 9 symphonies; Mozart wrote 41... but generally it is only no.s 25, 29, and the final 6 or so that are considered among his mature and greatest works. Haydn wrote 104 symphonies!! His final collection of symphonies, known as the "London Symphonies", which include many of his finest works, in comprised of 12 symphonies which push beyond some of the ideas of Mozart. Beyond these there are the 6 "Paris Symphonies", and any number of works from his middle years which are included among those known as his "Sturm und Drang" Symphonies. Add to this his endless string quartets, piano sonatas, choral works, operas... and one may well be overwhelmed... especially when the works remain firmly footed within the given classical structures so that it takes several hearings to begin to discern the differences or the original elements that are so obvious in the works of the Romantic composers such as Beethoven.
The symphonies are full of magnificent moments... and as a whole reward repeated listening. Listen to the muscular start of symphony no. 98 which stands as a precursor to the brooding works of Beethoven. I like this particular rendering... which captures the muscularity of the opening of this work... and because of the discussion by the conductor who admits to his own youthful doubts about Haydn in a brief pre-concert talk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUlEBoqHYK8
Of course there's the magnificent 104th:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90t9w7aLZL0
The closing to this symphony reminds me of one of Beethoven's more joyous passages... such as the peasant dance from his 6th (Pastoral) Symphony:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVHVRLQ79K0
And of course there's this playful symphonic exploration of a simple theme and variation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJDWh9F3Vig
Of course this but scratches the surface of Haydn's symphonic output... and his symphonies may not be his greatest achievement. Haydn was quite literally the inventor of the string quartet... and an unsurpassed master of the form. What Haydn achieved in the quartet was something of a democratic art form. Rather than the concerto in which a single virtuoso instruments dominates the dialog, as it were, with the string quartet Haydn virtually created a musical equivalent of a dialog... in which four instruments/speakers take turns talking, arguing, laughing, etc...:
Here is the famous adagio cantabile from the Emperor Quartet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc34Jr9udlU
And a few other marvelous selections:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS_TF...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hymdXgFND4I
Of course, being a fanatic of vocal and choral music, I might just suggest that Haydn's choral works are his most towering achievements. Haydn quite well surpasses both Mozart and Beethoven as a choral composer. Among his great choral achievements: St. Cecilia Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmixN...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uqw37PwVYA
The Lord Nelson Mass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E9Iu...eature=related
and Haydn's nearly undisputed masterpiece, The Creation... an oratorio that clearly builds upon Handel... and vies with Handel's Messiah as one of the greatest oratorios ever composed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5RHDwdaanQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vafm_PdWsrI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yg6PMCkmJc
I've never really liked Haydn, and I have some issues with St Luke's book; so I went ahead and compiled my own list:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkshadow03
1607 L'Orfeo- Monteverdi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjpFi9bn1do
1638 Miserere- Allegri
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x71jgMx0Mxc
1694 Canon in D- Pachelbel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZHw9uyj81g
1707 Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor- Bach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1z12_Ps-gk
1717 Prelude to Cello Suite 1- Bach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU_QR_FTt3E
1718 Air on the G String- Bach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOVwokQnV4M
1719 Double Violin Concerto- Bach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vesrqFeq9rU
1723 The Four Seasons- Vivaldi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSw7CcAXPWk
1723 Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring- Bach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwWL8Y-qsJg
1725 Badinerie- Bach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVxwuirUX-M
1748 Zais Ouverture- Rameau
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQHRu5wG6RI
1754 Halleluah Chorus- Handel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnHksDFHTQI
1771 Minuet- Boccherini
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSE15tLBdso
1773 Symphony 25- Mozart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lC1lRz5Z_s
1780 Night Music of the Streets of Madrid- Boccherini
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5pnr53S_qc
1783 Rondo Alla Turca- Mozart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCSevzJQ2-Y
1784 The Marriage of Figaro- Mozart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcuXkicCTro
1785 The Piano Concerto No. 20 in D minor, K. 466- Mozart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtTqpqGIIYU
1785 Piano Concerto No 21- Mozart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df-eLzao63I
1787 Don Giovanni- Mozart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK1_vm0FMAU
1787 A Little Night Music- Mozart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb_jQBgzU-I
1788 Symphony 40- Mozart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZD9nt_wsY0
1788 Jupiter Symphony- Mozart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ehqc17iiBBU
1791 The Magic Flute- Mozart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2ODfuMMyss
1791 Requiem- Mozart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkT07TP-mo
1798 Romance for Violin and Orchestra 2- Beethoven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64KW04601ts
1801 Moonlight Sonata- Beethoven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQVeaIHWWck
1804 Symphony 3- Beethoven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFltqVS8d9I
1808 Symphony 5- Beethoven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcR1ZS2hVo
1808 Symphony 6- Beethoven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbFxVVLM2zc
1808 Clarinet Concerto 1- Spohr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVcyRizubIc
1810 Fur Elise- Beethoven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQTTFUtMSvQ
1816 The Barber of Seville- Rossini
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OloXRhesab0
1817 The Thieving Magpie- Rossini
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSrLDHDQ2eo
1824 Symphony 9- Beethoven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAOTCtW9v0M
1825 Ave Maria- Schubert
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bosouX_d8Y
1827 Piano Trio No 2- Schubert
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQy-cgUYA6g
1829 William Tell Overture- Rossini
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkymTHSbWe0
1834 Fantasie Impromptu- Chopin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvm2ZsRv3C8
1841 Spring Song- Mendelssohn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mz5Rtx-Eu0
1843 Wedding March- Mendelssohn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDr8Q7lDW8o
1843 Tannhauser Overture- Wagner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDwiYOCnuao
1843 The Flying Dutchman- Wagner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJtrXqRu9K8
1844 Ach So Fromm- Flotow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is1gMLBW_bY
1845 Carmen- Bizet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axvhEUyVfX0
1847 Hungarian Rhapsody 2- Liszt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goeOUTRy2es
1848 La Traviata- Verdi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcKdnkGBSgA
1851 Rigoletto- Verdi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYRZOEzoOgQ
1853 Anvil Chorus- Verdi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXFZckzjcKw
1856 Ride of the Valkyries- Wagner
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V92OBNsQgxU
1864 Barcarolle- Offenbach
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7czptgEvvU
1866 The Bartered Bride Overture- Smetana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVTutjfb22s
1866 The Blue Danube- Strauss II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTqlLKBKFhg
1869 Hungarian Dance 5- Brahms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X9LvC9WkkQ
1871 Grand March- Verdi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUv-G8TzkMc
1872 Danse Macabre- Saint-Saens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyknBTm_YyM
1874 Dies Irae- Verdi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDbMzp86tOc
1874 Pictures at an Exhibition- Mussorgsky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_98452AxFI
1876 Swan Lake-Tchaikovsky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S76CGGPqI3s
1876 March Slave- Tchaikovsky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5poSw7tFLB4
1876 Peer Gynt- Grieg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEXAruiTSjk
1879 Eugene Onegin: Polonais- Tchaikovsky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19lJZGzOeEg
1880 Romeo and Juliet- Tchaikovsky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmwMkMJlcfA
1880 1812 Overture- Tchaikovsky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNatwyAJ6dI
1883 Flower Duet- Delibes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qx2lMaMsl8
1886 Night on Bald Mountain- Mussorgsky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0h6H_vcSKc
1886 Carnival of the Animals- Saint-Saens
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsD0FDLOKGA
1887 Pavane- Faure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpgyTl8yqbw
1887 Polovtsian Dances- Borodin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8C8frqCKKg
1890 The Sleeping Beauty- Tchaikovsky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sU4mgkGtrs
1890 Intermezzo- Mascagni
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CVyf13B1vE
1890 Clare de Lune- Debussy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlvUepMa31o
1892 Vesti La Giubba- Leoncavalo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8WOKsdHuc4
1892 The Nutcracker- Tchaikovsky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg1dMpu4v7M
1893 Symphony 9- Dvorak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yctfXIqugXc
1894 Meditation- Massenet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObxzdawhM-8
1896 Sunrise- Strauss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmuNxYLxTs
1899 Flight of the Bumblebee- Rimsky-Korsakov
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXHd-ZLN_ew
1899 Enigma Variations- Elgar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUgoBb8m1eE
1901 Pomp and Circumstance- Elgar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moL4MkJ-aLk
1901 Prelude in G minor- Rachmaninoff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QB7ugJnHgs
1904 Un Bel Di- Puccini
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpW8Jvl9low
1916 The Planets- Holst
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B49N46I39Y
1917 Dream of Doretta- Puccini
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3PtVRWNYus
1918 O Mio Babbino Caro- Puccini
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rxy4qrnKwVo
1924 Rhapsody in Blue- Gershwin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK_ShoOL2ao
1926 Nessun Dorma- Puccini
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOfC9LfR3PI
1928 Bolero- Ravel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-4J5j74VPw
1932 Suite For Jazz Orchestra 2- Shostakovich
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYhZVqODYsI
1934 Rhapsody on a Theme By Paganini- Rachmaninoff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Z-HCq5EeU
1934 Troika- Prokofiev
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hINfOSlMANc
1935 Dance of the Knights- Prokofiev
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUmq1cpcglQ
1936 Carmina Burana- Orff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNWpZ-Y_KvU
1936 Adagio For Strings- Barber
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRMz8fKkG2g
1940 Violin Concerto- Khachaturian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZexcMRKVMkk
1940 Comedians Gallop- Kabalevsky
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw0oQ4sD4us
1942 Rodeo- Copland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqah1rucyRg
1942 Fanfare for the Common Man- Copland
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzf0rvQa4Mc
1942 Sabre Dance- Khachaturian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqg3l3r_DRI
I'm a very ignorant person to be bursting in here, but I had to comment on this. I was recently listening to "The Creation", and although there are undoubtedly some superb parts, the Adam and Eve duets left me with this impression:Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkshadow03
[I]The Mill on the Floss[I]Quote:
"Philip burst into one of his invectives against 'The Creation' the
other day," said Lucy, seating herself at the piano. "He says it has a
sort of sugared complacency and flattering make-believe in it, as if
it were written for the birthday _fête_ of a German Grand-Duke."
Oh, well, it was probably simply the way of the times, and I do intend to listen to more Haydn. Once I've listened to the 5 new Beethoven CDs I just got, and some more sacred arias.
I just can't get enough of opera at the moment, in particular Verdi and La Traviata. I can recommend the Domingo/Zeffirelli enough, it just seems perfect in every way, I've watched it about four times...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Verdi-Travia...9553017&sr=1-4
As someone quite new to the form La Traviata has resonated with me more than any others at present I think. More Verdi needed ASAP...
I mean the little overture is just so beautiful alone, it's delightful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEzEa_LUy84
@ St. Luke
I've listened to many of those pieces: Symphony 98, 104, parts of the Creation, etc. Basically anything Phil Goulding recommended in his book, and then some. I usually listen to a few pieces beyond what he recommends. Don't get me wrong, I think some of Haydn is okay, but I keep listening and I never find myself moved by his work the way I am by some of the other composers I've listened to so far. It just sounds so bland at times.
I think I'm trying to figure out if I should move forward to Brahms or continue listening to Haydn and hope I can learn to appreciate him or if something will click. I'll probably keep at Haydn for a bit since I'm moving in two days and don't really have time to put together a Brahms collection anyway. Plus I want to give Haydn a fair chance. Some of the pieces are growing on me, but I find it doesn't have that instant Wow factor that pieces by Beethoven, Handel, Bach, Mozart, and Tchaichovsky all have had for me.
No one will love every composer... no matter how good. With the exception of the Symphonie Fantastique, Berlioz has never really clicked with me. I sometimes find Brahms to be a bit of an old fuddy-duddy in comparison with Wagner or even Bruckner (although his chamber works are unsurpassed), and I have a love-hate relationship with Tchaikovsky... and often the whole of Russian music. The reason I read or listen to music is for the aesthetic pleasure. Stick with what gives you the most pleasure... but certainly be open to exploring the unfamiliar and to re-examining that which you think you know well. As we grow and change as a result of our experiences, so too do our responses to art. There are any number of artists, writers, composers who once left me indifferent... who I even once hated (Emily Dickinson, Emerson, Matisse, Gauguin:blush:) whom I now love.
Haydn's The Surprise (94) and The Drum Roll (103), along with other London symphonies, introduced my love of classical music late in high school. But pre-eminent in following years was Brahms's majestic Piano Concerto No 2 (Op. 83). I have since heard the odd exquisite trio by Haydn though, I agree, much of his output seems somewhat clinical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkshadow03
How could you ever not like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._gehen_wir.jpg
I completely agree about age changing our responses to art. There are plenty of works I disliked in high school that grew on me when I reached college age and Post-College age. The particular example that comes to mind is Edith Wharton.
Not including a Gauguin in my list of visual masterpieces was a terrible oversight. The man is a master of color and composition. I like the picture you included, though I'm more partial to The Vision After the Sermon, or In the Waves.
In more music related news, the death of Seneca in Monteverdi's Corronation of Poppea is badass. I love that guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb9nCKAQVyA I'm digging that scene even more than Orpheus' grieving over Euridice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ll_u870PG8 or The Lament of the Nymph http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qz2aj2oB68
Well, I was recently in Boston and saw that painting in the Museum of Fine Arts, so I selected that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
Well it was Figaro last night and my head is still full of this wonderful unreal world. Real life is just so dull compared to the opera! I'm feeling a serious addiction coming on. The language thing was hardly an issue, yes I would still prefer Italian with English stage titles, but overall the thing was totally spell-binding - I couldn't sleep last night and I can't function now. The whole thing is completely under my skin, wonderful!!! What a fool I’ve been for ignoring this form for so long. I wish it was on again tonight for I would go again and again, incredible!!!
Neely...
Opera can surely do that to you. Just think... an art form that merges narrative, theater, song, music, a sheer visual spectacle. And Le Nozze di Figaro is surely one of the finest ever. I envy you. I haven't been able to get to the orchestra or the opera from quite some time now... although the wife's birthday is coming up soon. Hmmmm???:ihih:
Yes, yes exactly it's just a combination of all these forms married together and in the case of Mozart perfectly so, sublime! Music and drama perfectly combined bringing out the very best of both! I went to a full concert a few days before but this was completely over-shadowed by the opera performance. It's the ETO - English Touring Opera and I've looked to follow them around for at least another performance but the logistics (trains) are just not workable. I read that when Figaro was first performed it was a sensation and everybody was addicted to it - I can see why. :eek:
Yes you'll have to 'treat the wife' to a performance, let her pick or better still use your own judgement on what she'll like :wink5: and book them for her! It's my birthday soon, I also feel a little trip coming on too...
Really though the amount of opera on offer around the country seems to me to be really thin on the ground, disappointing.
London, man! London! I'm quite serious... if I lived as close to London (or New York or Washington D.C. for that matter) I'd be there every other week. I doubt that you can possibly live in a greater cultural wasteland than Cleveland... although the orchestra and art museum are world class.
My own taste recently has swung toward Modern and contemporary composers... and the Baroque. I'm currently listening to John Tavener...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOCXM...eature=related
while Peteris Vasks is waiting in the wings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZsenEas8jw
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/...3d03ba53_o.jpg
I have been listening to a good deal of "early music" recently... especially Baroque works... including Pachelbel, Buxtehude, Vivaldi, Handel, and of course Bach. What I have come to recognize is how limited my range of composers is for the music of this period... in spite of the fact that I am so enamored of it. If I were to look at the works I have by late 19th century composers, for example, the sheer range is astounding: Wagner, Brahms, Richard Strauss, Mahler, Bruckner, Bruch, Debussy, Ravel, Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Faure, Dvorak, Puccini, Duparc, Delius, Elgar, Vaughan-Williams... and this barely scratches the surface. But my Baroque collection on the other hand...? It is actually embarrassingly slim... with the exception of Bach. I have a good amount of music by Handel... but nothing like what I should have when I consider his wealth of operatic and choral compositions. With the rediscovery of a cache of music by Vivaldi I certainly need to explore his choral and operatic oeuvre far more. And then there's Telemann:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOfDfqgr18A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQatl...eature=related
(who was THE biggest composer of the era)...
Buxtehude:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FJIw...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s-j7YyQuiM
(whose organ and choral music inspired Bach and Handel... and whose oeuvre has recently been tackled by the great Ton Koopman... who also recorded the whole of Bach's cantatas).
And what of Biber?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6vTF85l_AU
Schütz?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBXMlZrmiB0
Frescobaldi?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdup8lxR8m0
Allegri?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C4xmB1QWYk
Scarlatti?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lmqDOjHx70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-oVk...eature=related
(a magnificent composer of works for keyboard)
Praetorius?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj2kz8nSSfE
And the French: Rameau?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKvd4tMkFHc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpwYj...eature=related
Lully?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ggB...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6ggB...eature=related
Charpentier?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT9nC...eature=related
And Purcell?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB3lS...eature=related
Of course here is a slightly more modern version of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVVnB...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAnQQ4_Jpd8
It's like reading: so much music... so little time... and money.:prrr:
Absolutely, so little time and so much hidden away.
Yes, yes London I have been looking into that place - £60/70 return ticket for the train and a two hour journey. I’m currently looking into what’s on and when. It is essential that I see more opera and soon...
Some of these shows are out of Mrs Neely's price range though. :arf:
:yikes: I must see this:
http://www.roh.org.uk/video/index.ht...id=71372967001