Reminds me of some of the religious right. They preach and rally against certain things but then latter get caught doing those same things. Why even brooch the subject if you know you do it????Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
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Reminds me of some of the religious right. They preach and rally against certain things but then latter get caught doing those same things. Why even brooch the subject if you know you do it????Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
No! It's disgusting!
'The law is nature! The law is only another word for what has a right to happen. If the law is wrong, that's because it is unnatural'
there are many things that are not legal and yet perfectly natural, a conundrum perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
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In my opinion, everyone should stop butting in each others lives, as long as they do not harm them let people do what they will. Morality is a matter of opinion after all.
why do people feel the need to involve themselves in others lives, it's their own bodies for goddess sake. If you don't like it then about it, but don't preach or condemn or make laws that cannot be fully put into place.
Leave people be as they are.
I guess you're right. But coming out with it only shows what a lack of understanding they have on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyWitch
There are those who preach and follow and those that preach and fail. Human failing is universal. Actually you were more outraged when i said I spit out my gum than over incest. It goes to show you everyone preaches something. Or all the peaching I hear over global warming and not using fossil fuels. It's a question of values. Spitting out my gum is pretty insignificant to me. But I consider incest contemptable behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
I think you're confused. This is what I'm talking about:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
David Vitter:
Quote:
In 2006, he told The Times-Picayune, “I’m a conservative who opposes radically redefining marriage, the most important social institution in human history.”[43]
Why would you come out and say something like that when you know you're visiting a prostitute on a regular basis??
As for gum and incest. You're right I don't care about incest, it's not something I would personally partake in however I'm not interested in what other people do in their bedroom. Now gum, there is a possiblity I may step on your gum and that will be a pain in the butt to scrap off. I have a thing about littering, I think it's low class to throw stuff on the ground one could easily throw in a garbage can.Quote:
Vitter, a Republican senator in his first term, has acknowledged being involved with Palfrey's escort service. But after issuing brief statements apologizing for "a very serious sin," he has ducked follow-up questions. At trial, he would not have that luxury.
As for global warming I don't see the preaching. The facts are humans are putting more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere then ever before. It's been proven that the earth goes through climate changes periodically; We may be in one of those now changes now and It's hard to quantify the impact humans are having on that change.
What I know is that humans are pumping toxins into the air, into the land, and into our waters. Hell, I do all three on a daily basis. Looking for ways to minimize that impact and talking about it is hardly hypocritical (a word you throw around quite often). What's the issue? You've already mentioned your views on the issue many times and despite that some people here are environmentalists and believe it's a worthwile cause.
The only thing I have to say to this whole thread is this really I didnt know half the stuff that is illegal in the UK is illegal, and that is disturbing, and also raises the question if you look at the stepsiblings bit how many people actually know thats illegal? and why if people are concious of this is it often marketed as'romantic' to young teens in teen romance novels, and in quite a few teen non romance novels that I can picture in my head but think what they are called...disturbing,
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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
step siblings were added to the Sexual Offences Act in 2003, perhaps a reflection of the increasing fluidity of the family unit; so it is probably that the fiction you're referring to pre-dates the offence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade
Why am I confused? Like I said some preach and follow and some preach and fail. Obviously he failed. Frankly one of the insinuations of what I got was that you were implying that I preach but behind the scenes I practice incest. I'm preaching against incest. If you want to blur the argument with all sorts of extraneous issues, then we'll have a convoluted discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
Right. Like I said it's a question of values. You see an impact to society from what makes you outraged. Others who think that incest is wrong equally see it having a deleterious impact to society. You seem to be scoffing at others values. Which is ok, I proudly scoff at the environmentalist's values.Quote:
As for gum and incest. You're right I don't care about incest, it's not something I would personally partake in however I'm not interested in what other people do in their bedroom. Now gum, there is a possiblity I may step on your gum and that will be a pain in the butt to scrap off. I have a thing about littering, I think it's low class to throw stuff on the ground one could easily throw in a garbage can.
As for global warming I don't see the preaching. The facts are humans are putting more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere then ever before. It's been proven that the earth goes through climate changes periodically; We may be in one of those now changes now and It's hard to quantify the impact humans are having on that change.
What I know is that humans are pumping toxins into the air, into the land, and into our waters. Hell, I do all three on a daily basis. Looking for ways to minimize that impact and talking about it is hardly hypocritical (a word you throw around quite often). What's the issue? You've already mentioned your views on the issue many times and despite that some people here are environmentalists and believe it's a worthwile cause.
Edit: Actually that's not true. I scoff at their assessment of the data and the impact, not their values.
oh bull****, virgie I in no way insinuated you are a closet incestigator. You know that I was responding to Sleepys comment about hiding in shame, (which reminds me of David Vitter, Larry Craig etc...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
The only thing I said was I don't care, I don't see that as scoffingQuote:
Right. Like I said it's a question of values. You see an impact to society from what makes you outraged. Others who think that incest is wrong equally see it having a deleterious impact to society. You seem to be scoffing at others values. Which is ok, I proudly scoff at the environmentalist's values.
Which is funny because I scoff at your assessment. I've seen some of the impact toxins can have on our environment and humans firsthand. Save the flathead minnows!!!!Quote:
Edit: Actually that's not true. I scoff at their assessment of the data and the impact, not their values
:lol: Ok sorry if I hit a nerve. Peace. :) "Incestigator?" :lol: :lol: Is there such a word. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
Actually I didn't know, but if you're being fair you can add some politicians of the other political party. You can add Eliot Spitzer of New York to that list. Hypocrisy goes around to every one. Like I said human failing is universal.Quote:
You know that I was responding to Sleepys comment about hiding in shame, (which reminds me of David Vitter, Larry Craig etc...)
That's not global warming. If there are real environmental issues, and I'm sure they're out there, I support them for the most part. But a cost-benefit analysis has to be performed. Yeah you can find traces of anything in tap water, but just because it's there to a minimal level doesn't mean it's harmful. My environmental passion is relegated to preserving wilderness, wetlands, and wildlife. Actually I'm disheartened that wolf hunting will be allowed in the northwest. It's good that wolves have made a comeback through the wildlife act, but now some will actively kill them because of their success.Quote:
Which is funny because I scoff at your assessment. I've seen some of the impact toxins can have on our environment and humans firsthand. Save the flathead minnows!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
haha, just making sure you knew I wasn't calling you an incestigator (I'm pretty sure that's not a word). We definately have different opinions but I would never insinuate such a thing.
Yeah, that jackass too. I couldn't remember his name or I would have put him down.Quote:
Actually I didn't know, but if you're being fair you can add some politicians of the other political party. You can add Eliot Spitzer of New York to that list. Hypocrisy goes around to every one. Like I said human failing is universal.
Legalising it is encouraging things which are mentally harmful. Incest, like rape, has psychological reasons behind it. I do not mean that the two are equally as awful by the way before I get shouted at. There's a storyline in a soap about a half-brother and sister who commit incest. Incest is NOT the same as normal sex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakiryu
:lol: :lol: that is a good one Papayahed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yeah, really - there is quite a pick out there to choose from, any party!Quote:
Actually I didn't know, but if you're being fair you can add some politicians of the other political party. You can add Eliot Spitzer of New York to that list. Hypocrisy goes around to every one. Like I said human failing is universal.
Oh God, that is disheartening. Can they use traps, too? I read a novel about wolf hunting and it made me sick. The book was called "The Loop" and that stands for this horrible devise that actually catches the baby wolves, the pups, and they die slowly and painfully; I won't go into the details, but this is so cruel and inhuman. I certainly hope that is forbidden.Quote:
That's not global warming. If there are real environmental issues, and I'm sure they're out there, I support them for the most part. But a cost-benefit analysis has to be performed. Yeah you can find traces of anything in tap water, but just because it's there to a minimal level doesn't mean it's harmful. My environmental passion is relegated to preserving wilderness, wetlands, and wildlife. Actually I'm disheartened that wolf hunting will be allowed in the northwest. It's good that wolves have made a comeback through the wildlife act, but now some will actively kill them because of their success.
Oops..... I wandered in here again. I just had to comment on these posts.:D
:lol: this is so funny; I wondered if you had wandered in her because you saw my name come up....geez, we sure do think alike. So now, I am wandering back in because I saw your name come up. We two are hilarious!Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Yes, my son told me about that book and he kept asking me if I come to the part about the trap - 'the loop'....I can't tell you how sickening it was, when I did read about it. I could not believe that people could be that cruel to defenseless animals and these being puppies. Then again, I have a next door neighbor who has been killing squirrels and I am outraged. I don't want to know how he is doing it, and it sickens me when I see one wander innocently into his yard. I haven't seen one squirrel this spring. Is it legal to kill squirrels, do you know?
Otherwise, this neighbor is a really good person and always comes to our rescue and helps us around the house. I just don't understand his new obsession with killing these tiny helpless animals. I can't very well oppose, since he is so good to us. I feel sickened by it though.
Here's the thing. My neighbor to the left of my house, has feed the squirrels for years, she has even named a few who came to her door for food. We all live with properties running up to a pond. We all enjoy the wildlife and the benefits of living here and we feel blessed. Now it is true, that by feeding them continually, for a few years the neighborhood was over-run with squirrels. So the neighbor on the right trapped them and took them away to a more rural wooded area. He has a vegetable garden enclosed by a fence. Now, I guess he got fed-up and decided to just 'out and out' kill them. I think he traps them and then - who knows? I just hope it is quick. I keep thinking of Sweeny Todd's method...ick! Still I get sad thinking he might be kiliing an adult, leaving babies in a nest. They are adorable when young and we have hand feed them, too. I admit when they get older, they can be a nuisance, but normally we just laugh at their antics and I still do think they are so cute and have a right to live here like the rest of the wildlife. I would get mad sometimes when they dug up my seeds or my garden. But the birds eat the seed too, so what does one do? Go and shoot all the birds? I know a lot of people hate squirrels but that is silly. They were here first!Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Should incest between consenting squirrels be legal? :lol:
I think that consenting adults should be able to do whatever they wish to do. I would never do it, but if thats how some people feel, who are we to take that away?
Well from what I've heard they do... But I think that is more when they are in captivity and have no other option. But some animals, rabbits for example... Well rabbits breed like rabbits no matter what!:lol: I think with animals their primary need is to reproduce and survive so they really don't care if there's no other option....Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
It could have been moles or shrews; also chipmunks will eat them. I had some just vanished but then there were underground holes so I think it was moles or shrews. My friend had stuff torn out from the roots but she lives in the country and she found out it was a ground hog and trapped it; animal control came to pick it up. She fairly hates those now but she said they are so cute and I did see baby ones once - they are just adorable; I saw them in refuge and they fight like crazy for their food and yelp or squeal, too. I don't like killing crickets either - they are kind of ugly and big bugs but hey, sometimes I even let spiders go. I figure they actually are good for your garden - they eat other pests! Funny how those crickets really learn their way around!:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
My feeling is you can't kill them all or even trap them all so why bother. It is a useless thing and sad to think they have to die for no real reason. One cannot whipe out the problem that way.
I didn't think they did either. Good point! Tab one up for our side. Glad you mentioned the issue...we were beginning to turn this thread into "Wild Kingdom"....:lol:Quote:
No, not even among squirrels! :lol: It's against nature. Actually, I don't think animals commit incest, which shows what I've maintained all along - they have more sense than humans.
Going now to watch "Atonement" - library had it in. Yeah!
I just took a short break; I think it is nearly over. I love it - it is a stunning movie! That house is so gorgeous (I love antiques!) and love the photography. I love James McAvoy; I think he is one of the finest actors today. He is amazing in this film and so was the little girl playing Briney. Her eyes are mesmerizing. I must see this film twice, absolutely!Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Oops....this is not the movie thread....:lol: I will write more in there in a few days. Going to my son's tomorrow to see baby's room....furniture came today....what fun that will be!
You guys are getting off the beaten path. It's unnatural and has potential genetic consequences. But that is not the issue here. The issue here is whether or not people who commit incest are criminals. They might be sick, but they are not criminals.
But if it is illegal then technically they are criminals?....Quote:
They might be sick, but they are not criminals.
Nope. I second the idea that it is completely wrong, and we are genetically and biologically predisposed against it... I'm with you 100% Antiquarian! It's just not right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Anti, I don't know if you read the entire thread, but I cite that and I also site how rare it is for animals to do the same. I think it's on the first or second page.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Some animals do 'commit' incest, though the word implies an understanding that I doubt exists. The fact is that most of the offspring of such matings are flawed and therefore the incestuous strain dies out of its own accord. In humans, however, we tend to pamper and protect the weaker members of the tribe and therefore genetic flaws from incestous matings can be passed on...hence the age-old prohibition against incestuous matings.
That having been said, and in light of the fact that our world is now awash in a soup of pollutants and toxins that can cause abberations in the gene pool, it may be a moot point if a relatively small number wish to mate with siblings and produce offspring.
I refer you back to a neat quotation from a very good play: 'The law is nature. The law is only another word for what has a right to happen'Quote:
Originally Posted by metal134
Therefore commiters of incest are criminals because incest isn't natural.
Well I happen to disagree. If you want to look at it in that light, then every human is a criminal every single day.
THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT! That's why it shouldn't be illegal because the notion that these people are criminals is ludicrous. They shouldn't have to go to jail for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sprinks
Legalising it implies that it's okay. It's not okay, it's NOT RIGHT.
There is a psychological reason for why they do it, it's not a choice. It is not the same as normal sexual attraction.
Maybe the law shouldn't be a jail sentence but an obligatory visit to councilling.
If something isn't illegal, it is legal, right? And referring you back to my quote at the top of page 17, is incest natural? No.
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
You amaze me, people, with your 'it's just NOT right', 'we are predisposed against it'{edit}. The truth is, you're just disgusted with incest and you're trying to find reasons to make your judgements accepted. That's all. You have every right to be disgusted with incest but who do you think you are to state that everyone should think your way and that you are the 'normal' ones while the others are not? That's totally crazy. I'm not normal either, you know, but I'm perfectly ok with it, I'm myself and I'll sleep with my brother if we're happy with it.
You're just trying to reassure yourself in saying that no, you're not like that, and by looking at people who are different from you with disgust in your eyes. This is not surprising though, as sad as it is. This is human beings.
Why do you waste your energy in trying to find pseudo-psychological reasons for a behavior which does not appeal to you? Some people think the same way about homosexuals, because oh my God that's not right, {edit} call the police and put them in jail so that we can forget that it exists! Ok, yiippeeeee, that's the world we live in.
Also, a lot of people here who are outraged when it comes to incest do not think for one second that behind the pseudo pathology, there might be love, that's all, just love, sometimes it happens. But it needs to be destroyed or transformed into something dirty and unacceptable, I wonder why.
I don't know, it just amazes me and depresses me at the same time to see that. Poeple who are so closed-minded that they don't realize they are because the strong barriers that have been put around them have become part of their little world, as everything else. That's the way it is for them and that's the way it should be for everyone. Hell, not for me.
Amen Sweets! You tell it like it is.
R e m i n d e r
Please discuss the ideas but not each other.
Posts resorting such comments will be deleted without any further notice.
You mention these things that are pretty much seen as universally immoral and using them to illustrate how legality = morality? Legality does not equal morality. It is legal to cheat on your spouse. I guess that makes it morally OK. It is illegal to sit at home and drink a beer at the age of 19. Doesn't make it immoral. In many middle eastern countries, it is legal to beat your wife. I guess that makes it moral. Oh, wait, maybe the legality = morality rule only applies to the United States; we have eveything down pat. I absolutley refuse to listen to the legality equals morality argument. There is a huge overlap, but I absolutley refuse to aknowledge a universal legality equals morality sentiment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Anti, I don't want to drift off topic and I certainly support you in this argument, but I'm under the impression that no one can be turned away at the emergency room. Even illegal aliens.
Jay walking is illegal and people don't go to jail for it. I've gotten a ticket for not putting money in the parking meter. That's obviously illegal. My uncle actually got a ticket for spitting in the NYC subway platform. He was spitting onto the tracks. Spitting is illegal. I've said i don't believe these people who committed incest should not go to jail, but there needs to be a penalty and a boundary or right and wrong established.Quote:
Originally Posted by metal134
Anti, I think you're wrong on that. Yes they ask you for the insuance card, but they still have to treat you if you don't have one. I've been to emergency rooms with what I'm sure are illegal aliens. In fact a number of years ago, my father collapsed from heat and was taken to the hospital and he didn't have his medical card with him, and actually we couldn't find it back home for a couple of days. But they treated him and admitted him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Yes I did say why. If legality does not equal morality, then something being legal doesn't mean it's OK and something being illegal doesn't mean it's not OK. Fairly cut and dry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I think that's right. I am not sure about the illegal alien part of it, but if there is an emergency, it seems like the hospital could get in trouble for NOT treating someone, so it's probably better to just treat everyone and then try to collect as much as possible later. I used to work for a non-profit hospital in the Accounting Department. The Mission Statement of the hospital was to provide treatment for everyone - it was a stated a little differently though, in that "Mission Statement" language, but that was the gist. And there are procedures for accounting for charity treatments, but I wasn't involved in that specific procedure. In fact, I wasn't involved in any kind of patient billing or collecting, but I did receive phone calls from patients who called the wrong number and I got chewed out a bunch. One lady screamed at me because she was turned over to a collection agency after going to the Emergency Room for a bladder infection. She put off treatment because she didn't have a job or health insurance and went to the emergency room when it was so bad that she couldn't stand it. She paid what she could and then was turned over to collection for the rest after she thought she had worked it out with patient billing. She then called me and gave me a piece of her mind. Normally, I don't stand for people chewing me out for things that aren't my fault and that I have no control over, so I just listened and did what I could to get her connected to the right person. I just felt kind of bad for her. That would suck!
(btw: this topic is still going strong! how funny!)
Hmm, some interesting points raised here. Just out of curiosity, if incest were not a criminal offence punishable by imprisonment what penalty would you propose? Would it be enough to put people off.
Sweets, appreciate you feel quite strongly about this one, primarily because you are concerned with love. From my experience, and no doubt from the experience of many others who have been in a position of sexual abuse at the hands of a family member, most frequently love has nothing to do with it. The law protects vulnerable people, especially children, from harm. If you start blurring the boudaries between what is and what isn't acceptable then it is likely that more children will be harmed. I'd prefer to live in a world where it's illegal for young girls to be groomed into sexual relationships with older relatives, than one where it isn't. But perhaps my opinion is clouded by personal experience. The law, in this respect, has protected me and I'm grateful for it. Perhaps you underestimate how easy it is for a juvinile to be groomed, perhaps you don't see the risk, but it is easy, and without the protection of the law, and with the acceptance of family where does the 12, 13, 14, 15, or 16 year old go for protection? It's easy to say 'if they love each other' but heck, even in non-incestuous relationships how many times have you, or I mistaken something for love which turned out not to be? What about when it's not about love? You can't write that into the law.
{edit}
I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just trying to make you see the barriers that are around you. You've been put into this way of thinking since you were born and you don't even know why incest is wrong, you just know that it is. I'm not saying incest is right, I'm just saying that it's neitehr right or wrong, it just is and I'm not going to tell anyone what they have to do with their asses and feelings. Saying that incest is right or wrong is the same as saying that the blue sky is right or wrong. That's nonsense. Incest can be wrong for you, but that does not make it wrong for the whole population. I think it's very sad that you're so into your opinion that you even deny the possibility of love in an incestuous relationship. That's scary.
Also, Antiquarian, I'm terrified when I hear you say that you would bring yor kid to a psychiatrist if he/she did something that you would not do yourself. Wow. Do you realize what that means? Some people do the same with their kids because of homosexuality. You would not do that, but you would still do it for incest. If you think that some people feel the same way about homosexuality as you feel about incest, maybe you can understand what I'm talking about. Imagine if everyone sent everyone to a psychiatrist everytime they do something which people find NOT right?
Once again you compare incest with things like murder which involve a victim. Incest does not involve a victim when both persons are ok with it. It is too easy and revolting to compare that to murder just to freak people out.
You don't know why I'm getting upset? Well, I'm getting upset when I see how the world is. Maybe you would get upset too if you were in love with your brother and people wanted to send you to a loony bin because of that. It's about freedom.
The whole question about 'should it or shouldn't it be legalized' is preposterous anyway, because of the word 'should'.
The fifthElement, you are mixing sexual abuse with consensual incest, that's nonsense and the same strategy as that of comparing it with murder. I don't know how you can say that it isn't about love. It's not black or white.
I don't think your experience should make you judge the whole thing. I myself might have had the experience you mention in my childhood, I'm not sure, but that will not blind me and make me judge others. To each their own story.
And about mistaking love with something that isn't, first nobody really knows what love is, but I think people are responsible for their own choices. I don't like this idea of always trying to prevent things from happening by forbidding everything. In that case I would not go out cause I might get hit by a car, we would actually forbid cars because they can cause death..... we could as well commit suicide right away.
But it is possible that incest could have a victim, if children are produced. They will most likely be ridiculed and have a horrible chlidhood if the truth about their parents is known, and also there is the possible genetic problems the child might have as a result. The child did nothing to deserve any of it, they are a victim of their parents relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweets America
Quote:
Originally Posted by metal134
Okay, sorry, I wondered if that is the way you meant it, the way I read it first was that you were saying that they just aren't criminals regardless, not that they shouldn't be criminals. I apologise for kind of misinterpreting your words.
I'm talking about incest between two people, not about the kids that they can have. I already said that it was two different problems. About this question of the kids, here is what I have to say:Quote:
Originally Posted by sprinks
-no kid ever asks to be born, even with what you all call 'normal' parents. People who have kids always do so without asking for the kids' consent.
-instead of caring about what people will think, about the 'ridicule', it might be better to stand up for oneself, and those who ridicule you can really go to hell because they're a bunch of morons. Moreover, you don't need to be in this situation to have people think you're ridicule. I've had a horrible childhood myself and met horrible kids and people, but well, I survived. Impeding oneself from doing something because of what people will think is never a solution;
-I see what you mean about the genetic problems. That can happen and that's a tough question. That's the same question when 'normal' people have a disabled kid. It's all very tough, because for me even having a 'normal' kid is a tough question since you don't ask for his consent.
But I think this question of the kids is just a pretext because even when there is no kid involved, people are still against incest and they will always judge and ridicule people who are different. Now before someone says that I'm judging you because you feel differently than I do about this subject, i'd like to remind you that I have no problem with the way you think, I just have a problem with the way you want to impose your way of thinking to the others, or the way you are disgusted with people who behave differently than you do.