The Aeneid Discussion Group

question: why have a second death (one after Palinaurus) emerge unexpectedly in the underworld? (misenus) and because he challenges the gods to a trumpet contest? and yet ANOTHER burial. counting the funeral pyres in the Aeneid could be a thesis in itself; there are SO many.
Misenus and Palinaurus go together somehow, and it's always more than a framing device- even if i can't figure it all out.
In book 6, you think the death polluting would be Palinaurus, but then Misenus out of nowhere. ?? thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Absolutely not sarcasm as to "pius Aeneas."

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i wonder the same thing. i mean HOW many times did gods or prophets or dreams tell him to go to Latium/tiber/Italy? In book 3- every stop told him of his mission. Seems A is a little hardheaded at times? I'm sure there's a sophisticated reason for it. I just haven't found a critic with whom I totally agree on this issue.

jove and fates. in the Iliad, Jove/Zeus can mess with some details, but the fates have already sketched the big picture and items that Zeus can't change.
In the Aeneid, seems like Jove is the primary agent of Fate. or is FATE itself.

Do you think this is Virgil's way of claiming free will?

For me, one of the most interesting things about the Aeneid is "the two Virgils" - often called the "private" and "public." The public Virgil was required to write this epic that glorified Augustus by tracing his linage back to the Trojan Wars. This Virgil is the one who spurs Aeneas on to Rome to fulfill his destiny (as represented by Jove). We can only guess as to the nature of the "private" Virgil, but there are instances where things are not as great as they seem. The two main points that come to mind are
1. The fact that Aeneas exits the underworld through the Gate of Ivory and not the Gate of Horn
2. The very end, the un-heroic nature which Virgil leaves off the story.

So the struggle between the gods pushing Aeneas to Rome and he not always wanting to follow their guidence parallels the struggle between the two Virgils - or in a more general sense, that struggle between duty and desire.

PP- I think free will definitely exists as a concept in Virgil, but Aeneas' free will only gets him into trouble. When Aeneas is leaving Carthage, Dido confronts him. He responds that if he were doing anything of his free will, he would be dead with all the Trojan... or behaving as a traditional glory seeking hero would.

Aeneas' fate and the gods dog Aeneas for the first 6 books up until his visit to the underworld. In these books Aeneas is confused and reluctant; he makes many mistakes.

Once out of the underworld, he seems to have a better understanding of what is expected of him and seems more willing/proactive.

I haven't thought too much about "free will" in the context of the Aeneid because it seems a more Christianity oriented discussion and Virgil is pre Christian era.

I don't think any Greek or Roman would deny the existence of free will, they would argue that going against fate or the will of the gods will cause trouble. More of an excessive pride, piety issue.

You were asking this in regard to the gate of false dreams? Can you say more about what you had in mind? (These are only my opinions. I'm an intemediate Virgil student (no latin) at best.)



C.D. I agree, these aspects are what distinguish Virgil from the Homeric copy cat that many readers suspect him to be, and what finally make the Aeneid enjoyable and complex.

These aspects can also make the Aeneid soooooooo frustrating. If you read Lee Fratantuono's companion to the Aeneid, he focuses a lot on the counter currents and how Aeneas makes so many mistakes- he's like a bumbling fool. It's fascinating but I got very confused before I began to get a little unconfused.... :)

I like your distinction of pre and post-Underworld Aeneas. I would have to read the latter half again to decide if I can fully agree with that view (it has been some time.)

Traditionally, critics have divided the Aeneid in two sections, the Iliad half and the earlier Odyssey half. The two Virgils seem to be related to the distinction. However, it is obvious that the two fold structure breaks down at times. Virgil's point seems to be that fate was never mint to be easy.