Catcher in the Rye

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Originally Posted by fayefaye

Of course he's a bundle of contradictions; he's human.

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Thanks for the insight!

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I have seen this novel very often compared to William Golding's The Lord Of The Flies, since both involve a young adolescent (or adolescents) growing,

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This is an interesting point... Though I wouldn't get carried away with this comparison as the children (yes, they are children; no more) in TLOTF are forced into isolation from the adult world, 'grow up', take responsibilities. Holden, on the other hand, tries to isolate himself from the adult world willingly, and resists the necessity of 'growing up' and taking responsibilities although he is old enough to do these. Interestingly, he does not mind being 'grown up' when it comes to drinking or getting Sunny into his room. He often claims he is older than he is throughout the book when it suits him.

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To me, Holden wanted to seem a kind of savior for other lost adolescents, wanting no one else to fall into that apparent "phoney" oblivion he labeled so often, so that when people "fell" from that comfort in childhood that seems to disappear with the confusing adolescence, he wanted to "catch" them.

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I agree with your intrepretation of the title, Mono. However, my question was that Holden remembers the poem as 'a body catches in the rye'. Later on Phoebe reminds him that the actual poem is: “If a body meet a body, coming through the rye.” It isn't 'catch' but 'meet'; what is the significance of misquote?

Here is the actual poem:

Coming Through The Rye
by Robert Burns

Coming thro' the rye, poor body,
Coming thro' the rye,
She draiglet a' her petticoatie
Coming thro' the rye.

O, Jenny's a' wat, poor body;
Jenny's seldom dry;
She draiglet a' her petticoatie
Coming thro' the rye.

Gin a body meet a body
Coming thro' the rye,
Gin a body kiss a body -
Need a body cry?

Gin a body meet a body
Coming thro' the glen,
Gin a body kiss a body -
Need the warld ken?

It is interesting that even though Holden associates this with children and his desire to stop them from falling into the adult world, the actual poem has a sexual connotation.

I read Cather in the rye, and totally loved it! All thou I read it for school, I never went as deep in my analyze as u do... I just loved both Holden and Phoebe. They were so symphatetic. Holden might have been 'phoney', but that was what was so lovely about him. *just must comment*

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

I agree with your intrepretation of the title, Mono. However, my question was that Holden remembers the poem as 'a body catches in the rye'. Later on Phoebe reminds him that the actual poem is: “If a body meet a body, coming through the rye.” It isn't 'catch' but 'meet'; what is the significance of misquote?

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Like faith, having read it in high school, I suppose I never noticed the misquote. And, though I knew Salinger based the quote on a poem, I have never read the whole poem; thanks for posting it, Scher. ;)

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

Coming Through The Rye
by Robert Burns

Coming thro' the rye, poor body,
Coming thro' the rye,
She draiglet a' her petticoatie
Coming thro' the rye.

O, Jenny's a' wat, poor body;
Jenny's seldom dry;
She draiglet a' her petticoatie
Coming thro' the rye.

Gin a body meet a body
Coming thro' the rye,
Gin a body kiss a body -
Need a body cry?

Gin a body meet a body
Coming thro' the glen,
Gin a body kiss a body -
Need the warld ken?

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I agree with you, Scher, that the poem does seem to have a slight sexual connotation, though Robert Burns does not seem like the easiest poet to read. :D
In the comparison of the misquote from "catch" to "meet," perhaps Phoebe more insists Holden that he cannot save his fellow "fallen" adolescents, but must aide them more passively, as cliché as it sounds. This might also point out that Holden may desire to remain stagnant in this stage to adulthood to help others, maybe out of fear for what lies beyond the "rye."

New quizes on JD Salinger and Catcher have been added to the Forum:

http://www.online-literature.com/for....php?quizid=30

http://www.online-literature.com/for....php?quizid=28

Catcher in the rye is one of the few books that I keep reading over and over without getting bored and everytime I read it, I learn soemthing new. Holden is a very interesting character yet, he keeps contradicting himself. He says that everyone around him is phony-yet, he is so much like them that if he didn't some really nice things sometimes, you would think that he is one of 'them'

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

I love the image of 'catcher in the rye'... beautiful. However, Phoebe says that the actual poem is “If a body meet a body, coming through the rye.” What is the significance of this?

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Holden is absolutely terrified of growing up, hence his apparent fear of being sexually attracted to women. This said, the significance is the original poem by Robert Burns is actually about sex. It's basically Salinger being ironic and showing Holden to be a child.

Holden's contradiction are the whole points of the character. Throughout the novel he points out things he doesn't like about people but that he also does. I wouldn't call him a hypocrite because I believe he realizes this, he's just growing up and having the same difficulties as everyone. I love the part where he pretends he has a bullet in his guts, then again there are so many other similar parts when he fools around (the talk about the suitcases...). I also think his admiration for Phoebe, Allie and D.B. his touching

What do you think about his teacher-friend, Mr Antolini? I don't know weather to like him or not, what his intentions were...etc

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Originally Posted by Mark F.

What do you think about his teacher-friend, Mr Antolini? I don't know weather to like him or not, what his intentions were...etc

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I loved Mr. Antolini; he seemed a teacher who went far above and beyond his expectations as more of a mentor than a formal teacher. Holden obviously thinks highly of him, seeing him as a "non-phoney" and noncomformist; but Mr. Antolini offers Holden a new perspective for committing to school, and doing well - not to impress others, or "get a slice of the American pie," so to speak, but merely for himself.
That some readers interpret Mr. Antolini's manner as sexual with his gestures, I cannot agree with; like Holden, Antolini has his own faults (like alcoholism), and I saw his physical gestures more as almost father-like, exaggerated by a common teenager's fear of homosexuality.

I also saw the gest as a fatherly one, maybe at the time the novel was written their was antagonism towards homosexuality. The other teacher he visits at the beginning (the elderly one) is also a fatherly figure. I see what you mean about Mr Antolini as a teacher. I feel his intentions are good but can't help identifying to Holden's fears.

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Originally Posted by queenrah

Holden is absolutely terrified of growing up, hence his apparent fear of being sexually attracted to women. This said, the significance is the original poem by Robert Burns is actually about sex. It's basically Salinger being ironic and showing Holden to be a child.

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I was thinking about this and I wondered whether Salinger is being more than ironic here; maybe expressing a quite pessimistic view? Something Holden comes up with to 'save' children actually has sexual connotations. Sex is one of the sure signs of growing up; somewhat a loss of innocence. By this twist, I thought, Salinger might be trying to show that there is no escape (for Holden) or way to 'save' (children).

With all this focus on growing up, Holden is the only person who is really childish in the book. Phoebe talks and acts much more maturely than Holden does; all the other teens seem very much interested in sex while Holden just feigns an interest in it (although he thinks a lot about it).

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Originally Posted by Mark F.

What do you think about his teacher-friend, Mr Antolini? I don't know weather to like him or not, what his intentions were...etc

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I, like you Mark, am not sure how I feel about this character. I am not sure what Antolini's intentions were when he stroked Holden's hair but I don't think he was overstepping some boundries. I think there are some suggestions that he might be gay (if you would like to interpret them that way): he is not a conservative or conventional type; he is married to an older, well-off woman... However, I think the whole incident is about Holden and Antolini's sexuality is kind of irrelevant: he is unsure about his sexuality (surprise, surprise) like he is unsure about anything else about himself. Is Holden worried that he might be gay (because his relationships with the girls are not 'successes' as we see in the book) so gets very upset by Antolini's gesture?

I thought Holden's reaction to Antolini's gesture was typical of him: even though he has been one person he could really talk to and gave him sound advice he could relate to, Holden did not hesitate to get away from him when he suspects that Antolini might have a flaw.

I am (half-way) through reading it. It's slightly dull.

I have very mixed feelings towards this book
I still don't know what to think, really
A part of me thought it was fantastic, even "one of my favourite books" worthy
But then on the other hand...I don't know

I think I might have to read it again to decide

Hello guys!
How are you doing? At the moment im writing up an important paper for my literature class on the Bell Jar and Catcher in the Rye. However im having some difficulty with some parts of the essay which i thought id share with you and would appreciate any help or ideas, little or large!
Well looking at both of the novels we can see that the authors have chosen adolescent protganists. Holden in catcher in the rye and Esther in the Bell jar. My question is to see why the authors have chosen to use adolescence as their protaginists? Why have them as the main storyteller expressing their views through teenagers? As the books are about teenagers growing up and making the tansaction to adulthood but why do they present adolescence?? Any ideas would be soooo grateful and appreciated!!! Thank you!
From Sunflower! xx

That's a good question! Maybe they were writing for the 'young adult' audience? Maybe they wanted the teenager to be a symbol of transformation?

Hey!
Yeah thats what i thought and wrote on that they were purposely aiming for the younger audiences and showing that the transcation from childhood to adulthood is a huge step! BUt i was thinking why not use an adult protaginist speaking from experience? Or is it because they are the 'phonies'?? Would it be different if it was an adult? Im sorry i know im asking quite ambigious questions but this paper is for my final grade! :S
Thanks again for reply! And i welcome any new ones!!
Sunflower.xx

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Originally Posted by Sunflower05

why not use an adult protaginist speaking from experience?

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I don't think teenagers relate as well to adult experiences (even in reflection) as they would to another teenager. Teenagers are much more influenced (generally) by their own peers than by what they may consider an authority figure. My opinion.

First, hi Sunflower. :)

Second, I think the word you're looking for is "transition," not "transaction."

Third, I'm not sure what Salinger had in mind, but Sylvia Plath was writing a thinly-disguised autobiography, and those things really did happen to her when she was nineteen. So, in her case, it was just a matter of recounting personal history.

That doesn't mean the theme of "adolescent protagonists" can't be a valuable one. I think if you ask "how" instead of "why," you'll find some of the answers, and possibly some good questions, too—as in, "How have I, as a young adult, been affected by the age of these characters? How would I have reacted to them had they been ten years older? How does society (in the book) treat these characters? How would they be treated if they were having these problems at an older age? Would they be having the same problems if they were older? Are the issues in the book inherently adolescent in nature, or do older people experience them, too? If so, how does an older person's experience with depression/whatever-Holden's-problem-was differ from that of a younger person's? If not, why not? Exactly what are the problems that these characters experience, anyway?" (That last one should probably have come first.)

And so on.

This is just a comment on novels of adultlescence, not specific to Catcher in the Rye or The Bell Jar. The reason I think they are so interesting and common is becuase of the inherent situaton of a person undergoing a rite of passage. The situaton then is inherent with tension and conflict.

Thank you for your replies and i will definatly take them into account. Yeah i see what you mean, with writing about the bell jar it is Plath's autobiographical account so i can see why she has chosen to present adolescence. I will just mostly work on Salinger, any ideas if this too was how he was when he was young? I know that he did become a recluse afterwards? Any ways thank you for your help! :nod:

can anyone think of some songs that would fit the book "the catcher in the rye?" songs can relate to themes, symbols, messages, etc.

just wondering, but why do you need these songs?

Mark David Chapman, the man who killed John Lennon, perceived connections between Lennon's music and Catcher in the Rye. Compare the chorus of "Watching the Wheels" with the final scene of Holden watching Phoebe on the carousel:

I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round
I really love to watch them roll
No longer riding on the merry-go-round
I just had to let it go

Apparently, there is an audio file of Chapman reciting the lyrics to this song.

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Mark David Chapman, the man who killed John Lennon, perceived connections between Lennon's music and Catcher in the Rye.

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Does that have to do with why he shot him? Why did he do that, btw?

The assasin was also carrying a copy of the book when he shot Lennon, right? Was there a connection he made between the two, other than the music?

The Boy with the Thorn in his Side - The Smiths

Spring - The Rites of Spring

Out of Step with the World - Minor Threat

Creep - Radiohead

Mis-shapes - Pulp

Teenage Depression - Eddie and the Hotrods

Dark Globe - Syd Barrett

Is This It? - The Strokes

Meaningless - The Magnetic Fields

Insitutionalised - Suicidal Tendencies

What a Boring Life - The Slits

Why Don't You Shoot Me - The Subway Sect

"Working Class Hero" the song responcible for Lennon being blasted

In My Life - The Beatles

Everybody's Happy Nowadays and Boredom - The Buzzcocks

After Hours, Sunday Morning and Beginning to See the Light - The Velvet Underground

Mongoloid - Devo

It's Alright Ma, I'm Only Bleeding, Ballad of a Thin Man and Subterranean Homesick Blues - Bob Dylan

There's always the song that inspired the book's title, Robert Burn's "Comin' Through the Rye. There's a link here that has both the words and a sound clip with the melody (it's not the greatest rendition, but it'll give you the idea).

This seems like a very interesting question, and I can hardly think of anything that would match the uniquity of The Catcher In The Rye, though I may recommend almost any melancholic song by Radiohead (which consists of almost all of their songs), possibly from Velvet Underground, or maybe some of the popular works by Depeche Mode. :nod:

i teach the book to my junior american lit class, and these are some of the songs i use. some of the connections are obvious, some are more of a stretch...and it may be a longer list than you were looking for!

After Midnight J.J. Cale
All The Young Dudes Mott The Hoople
Another Lonely Day Ben Harper
Baba O'Riley The Who
Behind Blue Eyes The Who
Catcher, Call Me Holden Summer Always End
changes David Bowie
Circle Of Life (Elton John) Elton John & Tim Rice
coming through the rye Cyrus Chestnut
Crazy Patsy Cline
Creep (acoustic) Radiohead
Days Of Our Lives The Blue Nile
Dear God XTC
Epiphany Staind
ether Nothingface
express yourself Charles wright
Holden Caulfield Piebald
I Am Holden Caulfield The Contingency Plan
I Wrote Holden Caulfield Screeching Weasel
I'm One The Who
IHateMyselfAndWantToDie Nirvana
Individual Bad Religion
Loser Beck
Mad World Gary Jules
Magna Cum Nada Bloodhound Gang
Marked Bad Religion
My Generation The Who
Outside Staind
Reach for the Sky Social Distortion
rebel rebel David Bowie
Rock N Roll Woman Holden Caulfield (304)
sleeping_awake pod
Smoke Gets In Your Eyes The Platters
story of my life good charlotte
Story of My Life Loretta Lynn
Story Of My Life Social Distortion
Take The Long Way Home Supertramp
teenage desperation Loudermilk
The Handshake Bad Religion
The Kids Aren't Alright The Offspring
The Story Of My Life Neil Diamond
Turn! Turn! Turn! (To Everthing There Is A Season) The Byrds
Unwell Matchbox Twenty
Who Wrote Holden Caulfield? Green Day
Will The Circle Be Unbroken The Carter Family
William Holden Caulfield Too Much Joy
Won't Get Fooled Again The Who
young americans David Bowie
Youth Of The Nation POD
seven nation army white stripes

I thought it was a great quick, easy read. It is definately a book I would read again.

I would have to completely agree with 'Mad World'. I know there are 2 versions of it though. I'm not sure who does which, but (for once) the original is a load of trollop and the cover turns the song into something glorious and thought provoking. You'll find it on the soundtrack to the movie 'Donnie Darko'. IF you don't know it already you must check it out!

I would agree with whoever said creep and I think all aplogies by nirvana I know it's a contradiction but I think the lyrics kinda link with the book I know writeing this makes me look stupid but I always think of holden when I hear it.

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Originally Posted by Miss Smilla

I would have to completely agree with 'Mad World'. I know there are 2 versions of it though. I'm not sure who does which, but (for once) the original is a load of trollop and the cover turns the song into something glorious and thought provoking. You'll find it on the soundtrack to the movie 'Donnie Darko'. IF you don't know it already you must check it out!

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Tears For Fears did the original version, I believe, and Gary Jules did a revised version for the film Donnie Darko.

Hey guys.

I have to write an english test in two days, and I have to answer some questions, and I'm stuck with two of them: Chapter 25: What does he feel threatened by? What happened last Christmas, i. e. what’s going to happen just after Christmas? You would save my life by answering them. Thanks a lot.

Like many other heroes,Holden Caulfield is an example of a young ,though shy young teenager who is in search for his own system of values,and identity.He is easily hurt by the luck of love and endowed with a great sensitivity that makes him fully realize and remember any significance of certain things,which pass unnoticed by most people.HiS attempt to find a new home in the adult world,beyond the limits of his adolescent experience,may be compared to an odyssey,a spiritual journey ,full of tests and dangers

What are YOUR thoughts larimausi? MAybe if you share some of your ideas we can help you structure them rather than give the "answers" away. Literature isnt like math, it has many right answers.

this was the most hated book ever! we ahd to do so much **** for it in lit class. and it wasnt that good.

Has anyone read The Catcher in the Rye by JD Salinger?

Hi, JGaoiran,
yes, I've read it. Great book. But it's been such a long time ago that I think I'll reread it in the summer holidays. Thanks for the suggestion.

PS: Is it true that it's banned in some US school libraries on the grounds of language?

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Originally Posted by barbara0207

PS: Is it true that it's banned in some US school libraries on the grounds of language?

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yes it was

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/bannedbookslist.html