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Fun is what you do when you have money. After four years with a mass of debt, fun will seem not particularly worth it to most people.Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
The real problem with English is it is too young and full of young people who think they know what they are talking about - I would know, as I was one of them.
You're right, JBI, about the perspective. If one needs debt to get the degree, one will need to be convinced one can cover that debt later. Bankruptcy may be an option if all else fails. Also, one may need whatever job one currently has to keep one's family alive and this may prohibit taking the time to get the degree assuming one can pass the classes to stay in the program.
I don't know if we are at that point yet, but if the jobs aren't there justifying the price and time of the education whatever the degree, the price of the education will have to drop or subsidies increased because the number of people able to pay those prices will drop.
So buy pen and paper!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecurb
I think these activities happen outside university as well.Quote:
(As far as whether attending University is "better": University Life is fun. In fact, I had so much fun I hadn't time to read all of my assignments. They interfered with more enjoyable, and perhaps more educational activities, like playing sports and chasing women...
For me, life was more fun after university. If you find the right job, with a good boss & interesting work, then you aren't risking getting yet another bad lecturer, and yet another bad course. So why go to university at all? One of my best week's work was work experience at 15 in a local bank. The boss was such a nice chap, and it was such a pleasant place to work. He also gave a big hint that there might be a job there if I fancied it after finishing school at 16. I often wonder what life would have been like if I'd gone that route...nice easy bank job... plenty of time for reading in my spare time. I'd tell a 15 year old in the same position today: take the bank job!
I spent more time in the library than at home, burning through 2000+pages of novels and rubbish reading a week. Training myself to read Chinese also became a 20 hour a week enterprise, which continues to this day. There was very little fun about it, given that I did not skimp or cheat on anything - and in the end it ended up with a degree beside my name that nobody cares about.Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
We like to think it is somewhat important, but ultimately it isn't. The fact of the matter is, life is about who you meet more than what you know, and university though helpful in meeting one kind of person, rather in my opinion encourages the ignoring of many other people.
Taking as an option 100 000$ or a degree, I know which I would take. In that sense, one would probably learn more by using the money to travel to other places and interact with people, and perhaps pick up languages and fluency with cultures. Sure one may need to return to the degree later, but ultimately as a mature student, one would be able to better study the arts.
That's what one of my friends did anyway - he went to China at age 18 and mastered the language, then came back and did a degree in engineering. It isn't that he wasn't ready for university, or that he looked down on it, but rather that he realized the degree without practical experience would only take him so far. Rather, with his time abroad, work experience, and language abilities, he can apply virtually anywhere in the world now and get a job.
Second guessing one's past choices keeps one in the past. I can sort of see if one didn't go to college, one might have similar regrets: "Dang, if I only went to college...."
I'm not sure that's really true.Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
I remember hearing a few years back something about Congress having passed a law exempting student loans from bankruptcy cases. And, unlike other debts which fall under a statute of limitations,* any student loans one may have occurred NEVER get written off. So the creditors can chase you down like Harpies for decades.
*
Would the famous Venus deMilo--the one without the arms--be a "statue of limitations"?
Another good reason to avoid debt. I suspect the student's parents have to co-sign for the loan, so they would be the ones who would be responsible to pay the loan back.
"Taking as an option 100 000$ or a degree, I know which I would take. In that sense, one would probably learn more by using the money to travel to other places and interact with people, and perhaps pick up languages and fluency with cultures. Sure one may need to return to the degree later, but ultimately as a mature student, one would be able to better study the arts."
Watch out... Neely might not want to talk to you anymore if you keep it up. I mean Melville wrote Moby Dick after consulting wikipedia and youtube right? Do you really think learning outside a university is possible? *scoff*
As a practical matter, I'd take the $100,000 and use it to pay for tuition to get the degree.
You never actually responded to anything that I said and when I questioned a few of your points of reasoning you abruptly decided that "some people just like arguing and you wouldn't waste your time with me". You never explained why self learning was necessarily inferior, you never addressed cases like Hemingway and Melville (among many many others) who were entirely self taught and vastly more educated than yourself or the average -and above average- degree holder. This is your second iteration of the sentiment that you are "not wasting time on me" so am I to assume that 'wasting time' only refers to 'addressing my point of view' and doesn't extend to say, spending time writing snarky posts utterly devoid of substance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Yawn. Try re-reading my posts it might sink in...you will find I have more than adequately responded to your trollish nonsense.
Says he's backing out of the argument because he has other things to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Continues to argue.
Continues to insist that he is not wasting his time on you. Then calls you a troll for DARING to use logic on himQuote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Neely logic!
How is suggesting that self education is a valid possibility and then providing examples of such possibly to be regarded as trolling? JBI said something similar to myself and I don't see anyone accusing him of being a troll. Poor form amigo.
OK, do you and the new poster, with no respect, want me to go over it again very slowly? Do I have to cut into my chess time because you are seemingly unable to read back over what has been said?
You hear that Clopin? "New poster with no respect!" "Cut into my chess time!" Not only am I inferior to him because I don't spend as much time arguing with strangers on the internet, but he plays chess! He must be super smart and more logical than us because he is a chess player and definitely not being pretentious by mentioning his smart-person hobbies at us!
[/sarcasm]
Does that mean I can say "I don't have time to be vitriolically sarcastic to you, Neely, I have to get back to writing a novel?"
Because that's true.
See, at this point, I don't even care whether Neely is right or not, I'm siding with Clopin because between the two of them, he is the only one not acting like a teenager.
Edit: Also he's from England, and all English people are smart.