Supposistions and Interpretations
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JBI
Feminism is by no means monolithic or static. thereby what feminist means in terms of early 19th century and today are very different. Thereby your proofs, though with some merit, are false, do to the fact that I feel for her time she is somewhat of a feminist, in the sense that she illustrates the "best" character as the one who imbues the most feminist ideals.
In the sense of feminism, the poet Sappho has gone in history as a feminist, yet her point of view (from what can be seen from the fragments and two remaining complete poems) is nothing like what we imagine feminism today.
The cited reference - The Female Imagination and the Modern Aesthetic, edited by Gilbert and Gubar is not 19th. century but published in 1986. All of the literary analysis are of works of the 20th. century writers.
Gilbert and Gubar are acknowledged authority on feminism and used in many universities as reference in womens studies. The preface states unambiguously: “This collection of essays edited by Sandra Gilbert and Susan Gubar addresses topics that are central to feminist scholarship and gender studies, such as the relationship of female literary tradition to the larger literary context and inner-connection of social and sexual identity with historic and economic events.” The qualities used to define the pertinent ideology of feminist literature are not mine but defined in the essays. They are used solely to illustrate the contrast between the feminist ideology and the morality and social values inherent in Austen's work.
They are used also to give concreteness to the nebulous arguments and citation of feminism as used by the majority of the young women on the Forum.
Since you state that “ Thereby your proofs, though with some merit, are false” you will have to give a better argument than “do to the fact that I feel for her time she is somewhat of a feminist, in the sense that she illustrates the "best" character as the one who imbues the most feminist ideals.”.
Have you read The Female Imagination and the Modern Aesthetic and you dispute the premises that Gilbert and Gubar lays out as being out date or false? If so what are your references?
That you feel so is not sufficient, in the mathematical sense of profs, as necessary and sufficient. The statement In the sense of feminism, the poet Sappho has gone in history as a feminist, yet her point of view (from what can be seen from the fragments and two remaining complete poems) is nothing like what we imagine feminism today.. What are the history references that define Sappho as a feminist?I have read Sappho's fragments in translation and with the qualification that the denotation and connotation Archaic Greek words are open to interpretation, nowhere can I find the supposition that Sappho was a feminist.
In If Not Winter – Fragments of Sappho, the poet Anne Carson states “Sappho was a musician. ... Sappho was a poet” nowhere does she suggest that she was a feminist. She continues:”Controversies about her personal ethics and way of life have taken up a lot of people's time through the history of Sapphic scholarship. It seems that she knew and loved women as deeply as she did music. Can we leave the matter there?” Apparently the feminists can not.
It depends what you mean by 'getting it'.
On Getting Austen
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cactus
Yes, even Bridget Jones Diary is based on Pride and Prejudice as well. Same type of characters, same plot, different setting and details.
Shortysweetp (01-16-2006) - “I must say that I have only met one guy who truly enjoyed works by Austen or even the Bronte sisters. That was dear Mono oh how I miss him.... and for those that dont like the book maybe you just dont have the ability to understand the wit of Austen, a true female genius. Most men dont.”
Perhaps the example, “Mr. Darcy. *sigh* There honestly is no man I would rather meet.... he is perfect for Elizabeth in every way possible. Why can't that happen in real life? *sigh*”, is what you had in mind by 'getting it'?
Now I'll readily concede that most men do not gush over Austen. But to imply by 'Most men dont.', that they 'dont have the ability to understand the wit of Austen', is a bit far fetched, if not sexist. Gushing does not equate with understanding and judging by such a criteria, most girls don't. Note – girls, not women, as I think that they have neither the experience nor the comparative knowledge in literature to 'understand' Austen.
To suppose that because the stories end in marriage, Austen is a romance novelist, is to short-change- her. Pun intended. I have read as many incisive, interesting, analyses by men as by women. To name but a few: Harold Bloom in Canonical Memory on Persuasion, Frank Bradbrook on Jane Austen and her Predecessors, lastly but not the least, John Halperin on Jane Austen Bicentenary Essays. This is what I have in mind by 'getting it'.
Perhaps you would like to discuss what Austen meant by asking the 'sisters' to come to the defense of the novel in Northanger Abbey, or whether Emma's marriage is more patriarchal than heterosexual, or whether Elizabeth's values are more to the 'improvement of the estate' than just marrying for love not money, whether Austen identifies more with Marrianne's sensibility than with Elenor's sense, whether the novels have an early and late thematic difference and what such might be?
That is what I would define as a start to 'getting' Austen.
But then you probably were just gushing.
Reply to Getting Austen 2
To correct the impression that my references were only of male critics, since Shortysweetp said that “Most men dont”, I'll include a very short list of women critics that I found interesting
1) Austen, Eliot, Charlotte Brontė, and the Mentor-lover By Patricia Menon - This lucid and tightly-argued study uses the motif of the mentor-lover--embodying diverse permutations of sexual love, power and judgment--to explore, evaluate and compare the works of Jane Austen, Charlotte Brontė and George Eliot as they contend with issues of sexuality, family, selfhood, freedom, conduct and gender. The figure also provides a means to probe their relationship to the reader as they become mentor-lovers through authorship, each eliciting a different form of love and electing a different style of instruction.
2) “Without Hate, Without Bitterness, Without Fear, Without Protest, Without Preaching”:Virginia Woolf Reads Jane Austen, by JUDITH LEE
http://www.jasna.org/persuasions/pri...mber12/lee.htm,
a view by a great woman writer on another.
3)And an astonishing overview placing Austen in a historic context,
Bardic Nationalism: The Romantic Novel and the British Empire By Katie Trumpener -This magisterial work links the literary and intellectual history of England, Scotland, Ireland, and Britain's overseas colonies during the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries to redraw our picture of the origins of cultural nationalism, the lineages of the novel, and the literary history of the English-speaking world. Katie Trumpener recovers and recontextualizes a vast body of fiction to describe the history of the novel during a period of formal experimentation and political engagement, between its eighteenth-century "rise" and its Victorian "heyday."
