Poetry Discussion Group: Ovid's Metamorposes

This is a quote from Wikipedia about the River Styx:
"The gods were bound by the Styx and swore oaths on it.[1] Zeus swore to give Semele whatever she wanted and was then obliged to follow through when he realized to his horror that her request would lead to her death. Helios similarly promised his son Phaëton whatever he desired, also resulting in the boy's death."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styx

It exactly summarizes what we have already concluded previously on the thread. I suppose I would be interested in understanding the origin of the River Styx pre-Grecian times.

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Originally Posted by jersea

This is a quote from Wikipedia about the River Styx:
"The gods were bound by the Styx and swore oaths on it.[1] Zeus swore to give Semele whatever she wanted and was then obliged to follow through when he realized to his horror that her request would lead to her death. Helios similarly promised his son Phaëton whatever he desired, also resulting in the boy's death."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styx

It exactly summarizes what we have already concluded previously on the thread. I suppose I would be interested in understanding the origin of the River Styx pre-Grecian times.

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That's a really good question. I am thinking where to go to look and find the origin.

There is the same concept of the inviolability of the oaths of gods in Wagner's Ring of the Nibelungens. The movement toward the inevitable Gotterdammerung or Twilight of the Gods begins when Wotan makes an attempt to renege upon his promise of his wife's sister, Freia, the goddess of youth, beauty, and love, to the giants for building a new home for the gods in Valhalla. The giants point out that Wotan's authority is sustained by the treaties carved into his spear, including his contract with the giants, which Wotan therefore cannot violate. He must even intervene when Freia's brothers, Donne arrive to defend their sister. As ruler of the Gods, he cannot permit the use of force to break the agreement.

Considering how the theme repeatedly shows up in the Metamorphoses... as well as in other Greco-Roman literature (and even Biblical literature if we consider the covenant made by God with Abraham, or the various other oaths made between God and man) it leads one to wonder just how important was one's word or promise as a leader. It also leads one to wonder as to just how this changed... not even in our time, but even in the Renaissance if we consider Machiavelli.

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Originally Posted by jersea

This is a quote from Wikipedia about the River Styx:
"The gods were bound by the Styx and swore oaths on it.[1] Zeus swore to give Semele whatever she wanted and was then obliged to follow through when he realized to his horror that her request would lead to her death. Helios similarly promised his son Phaëton whatever he desired, also resulting in the boy's death."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styx

It exactly summarizes what we have already concluded previously on the thread. I suppose I would be interested in understanding the origin of the River Styx pre-Grecian times.

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Does there need to be a deeper origin? It seems to me the idea of being bound to an oath on the River Styx as a Greek deity tells us a great deal about the centrality of oaths and social honor in these cultures, especially the Greeks. This idea is related to why Menelaus and the rest of the Greeks need to go fight the Trojan War after Paris steals Helen. Honor and oaths (which include things like honoring one's promises and displaying certain behavior towards guests and family) were serious matters in the Ancient world. So when the gods do make a promise it's not something they take lightly or something they can take back without losing face. Why the River Styx specifically? Well, the Wikipedia entry explains the mythological reason for why the Styx gains that honor.

But if we were to dig deeper, I personally don't think it's a coincidence that the River Styx is the boundary between the mortal world and the living one (and by extension, the boundary between the immortal one that cannot die and the mortal one). It's literally the boundary between what separates the humans from the gods.

No, I don't think we need to over-complicate things, but the responses provided where helpful. It is true that as one reads these stories, it is important to not over think them. They are creations stories afterall. LOL!

I also find it hard to accept that an oath must be kept even when doing so will cause damage, but that does seem to be the case in these stories. I suspect today we would ignore the oath, but that doesn't seem to be an option in the these cultures which is a good reason not to make an oath in the first place.

Oaths seem to be replaced today by contracts, which specify how the contract would be ended if it can no longer be met. Current contracts are very specific (mortgages, stock options, etc) and they are not open ended like promising to do whatever someone asks without knowing in advance what that might be.

It looks like the River Styx is the institution (courts, bank, brokerage firm, police) that guarantees that the contract will be honored. It is just hard for me to imagine that a river, even one separating the living from the dead, can have such power.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

I also find it hard to accept that an oath must be kept even when doing so will cause damage, but that does seem to be the case in these stories. I suspect today we would ignore the oath, but that doesn't seem to be an option in the these cultures which is a good reason not to make an oath in the first place.

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I guess that is why these are just myths and not real. They serve a purpose to illustrate the ideal moral code or moral standard. Ovid was also poking fun at the gods by showing how ridiculous they could be in certain circumstances.

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Drkshadow03 wrote:
Does there need to be a deeper origin?

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LOL! It depends how we look at that problem. I have found quite fascinating to find connection with all religions and spiritual beliefs all over the world. The more I can find connections, the more I have questions........they we have not been told the truth. :brow:

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Originally Posted by ftil

LOL! It depends how we look at that problem. I have found quite fascinating to find connection with all religions and spiritual beliefs all over the world. The more I can find connections, the more I have questions........they we have not been told the truth. :brow:

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Not told the truth about what exactly? And by whom?

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Drkshadow03 wrote:

Not told the truth about what exactly? And by whom?

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About all religions. I am not going to tell what I think because I don’t like influencing people. I can only encourage people to ask questions because when we ask we search, and when we search we learn, and when we learn we grow.
Secondly, I believe that our natural way of how mind works is holotropic but we lost that ability in our educational system. Universities teach us to master linear thinking. But I need to do more research about it. However, there are scientists who study mind control are quite aware of it.

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Originally Posted by ftil

About all religions. I am not going to tell what I think because I don’t like influencing people. I can only encourage people to ask questions because when we ask we search, and when we search we learn, and when we learn we grow.
Secondly, I believe that our natural way of how mind works is holotropic but we lost that ability in our educational system. Universities teach us to master linear thinking. But I need to do more research about it. However, there are scientists who study mind control are quite aware of it.

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Read some Stanislav Grof have we?

Asking questions is great, but people need to learn to ask the right questions. And unfortunately that's not a skill a lot of people have or ever bother to learn. A lot of whacky behavior, dubious ideological positions, paranoia, conspiracy theories, and oddball world-views get defended by people with the excuse that, "they're just asking questions" and therefore, anything they choose to think is a-ok.

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Originally Posted by jersea

I guess that is why these are just myths and not real. They serve a purpose to illustrate the ideal moral code or moral standard. Ovid was also poking fun at the gods by showing how ridiculous they could be in certain circumstances.

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Yeah, they are just stories. Perhaps Ovid even made up a few of them himself.

He should have let one of the gods decide to take back his oath when he realized it was counterproductive so we could see what would happened to him.

On another topic, I found Bacchus rather interesting. If you didn't believe in him, he would just transform you into something unpleasant.

I haven't formed an opinion on Bacchus yet. I thought the fact that Bacchus is a new god and/or young god may having something to do with his quick reaction to take revenge if not worshipped, but most of the gods react quickly when brought to anger. Ceres turned the boy into a newt when he was starring at her and being naughty:

"And while the goddess drank, a hard faced youngerster
A loutish country boy, stood by and watched her,
And mocked her for her greediness."

The next part of the text describes how she then get angry and turns him into a newt.

Seems to me that the gods can demonstrate the power of raw emotions in humanity.

:/

Achilles was the boy whose mother dipped him in the River Stinx until he was intolerable.

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Originally Posted by jersea

:/

Achilles was the boy whose mother dipped him in the River Stinx until he was intolerable.

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:) I hadn't thought of it like that before.