Is the idea of god innate?

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Originally Posted by OrphanPip

Anyway, from what I can glean from summaries is that Bloom is proposing that babies have inborn expectations about the physical world, as well as inborn expectations about intention and "the mind" so to speak. He then proposes that this gives rise to beliefs like creationism, because we expect intent in all things. This isn't the same as a belief in God being innate, like I said in my first post in this thread, the notion of a God like being is complex and requires a cultural foundation to exist. There's a reason why vague notions of fate are nearly universal across human cultures, but anthropomorphic deities are not.

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I find Bloom's theory pertinent to this discussion anyway. I see a connection between believing in God and believing in intelligent design. If people are naturally predisposed to look for design, planning, meaning and a superior order in things, believing in God is just a consequence of that.

George Steiner wrote a book that explores this matter from another perspective: Nostalgia for the Absolute. In it he explains how Marxism, Freudian psychology, New Age, etc., are just ideas people are using to replace the idea of God. Steiner argues that modern people are living in spiritual emptiness and looking for something that will fill that void.

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Originally Posted by Heteronym

Steiner argues that modern people are living in spiritual emptiness and looking for something that will fill that void.

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One could as easily conclude that ancient people were filling an inquisitive void with God whilst waiting for Freud to show up.

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Originally Posted by Heteronym

I find Bloom's theory pertinent to this discussion anyway. I see a connection between believing in God and believing in intelligent design. If people are naturally predisposed to look for design, planning, meaning and a superior order in things, believing in God is just a consequence of that.

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Believing in gods would be a possible outcome of that predisposition, but that's hardly a groundbreaking idea. I started out in this thread saying humanity has a tendency for projecting anthropomorphic expectations on the natural world. Obviously, some humans are religious, thus there has to be an ultimate psychological reason for that, which is not the same thing as belief in a deity being innate. Also, his idea is a set of hypotheses at most, and no where near a theory in the scientific sense.

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Originally Posted by Heteronym

George Steiner wrote a book that explores this matter from another perspective: Nostalgia for the Absolute. In it he explains how Marxism, Freudian psychology, New Age, etc., are just ideas people are using to replace the idea of God. Steiner argues that modern people are living in spiritual emptiness and looking for something that will fill that void.

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That's just silly, plenty of people who believe in these things have been religious. And we didn't have a shortage of stupid movements and ideas prior to religion. Astrology and numerology have been plenty popular dingbat ideas for centuries. "Spiritual emptiness" is quite a subjective term also. I am neither Marxist, Freudian, or a New Age hippie, while still not being a believer in imaginary friends.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn Elessar

Actually I never was much of a philosopher in my childhood. But by the age of...10 or 11, I began to put thought into what God is and became an atheist by the age of 12.

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Same sort of age as me.

I started to note the similarities between Jesus and Santa and decided at about 10 that they were equivalent in every respect - fairytales to try to obtain obedience.

I haven't changed my opinion much in the next 40 years!

:D

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Originally Posted by Heteronym

I find Bloom's theory pertinent to this discussion anyway.

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Yes, but until his work is worth the term "theory" from a scientific standpoint (there's a thread with a discussion on that point somewhere), it is merely his own opinion and no more valid that yours, mine or anyone else's.

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Originally Posted by Heteronym

I see a connection between believing in God and believing in intelligent design.

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Well, most design proponents are - that's how it works.

:)

Most of the arguments I've ever heard in favour of design point to what they see as design examples in the world. Some of them are pretty funny, though - the banana one especially.

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Originally Posted by Heteronym

If people are naturally predisposed to look for design, planning, meaning and a superior order in things, believing in God is just a consequence of that.

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Have you considered the perspective of a child born in 2010 to one born in 300,000 BC? In 300,000 BC, kids were born into a world of trees and animals.

In 2010, they are born into a world where every single facet of their lives is dominated by things designed by humans. I think Bloom has massively over-complicated a very simple process.

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Originally Posted by Heteronym

Steiner argues that modern people are living in spiritual emptiness and looking for something that will fill that void.

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That is an extremely common theistic response to atheism - that it's empty.

I find the idea absurd myself, but I can see why someone looking through religion-tinted spectacles would think that way. Thinking any different might disinvest their own delusions.

Personally, I'm always open to the idea that supernatural forces exist. It's not likely, and indeed by scientific measures, not possible. But when I think about THE ultimate question, (Where did it all come from?) I can't help but think that something supernatural may be involved. The science of the beginning of everything, I think, is far too complex for Man to ever understand even on a basic level. We can only search and speculate. Science is about the journey to understanding...not about coming to a truly logical and all-encompassing conclusion about everything. We can improve upon theories for as long as we improve upon science, but no theory will ever become a fact. And that's what makes science so interesting. We know so little about the grand scale of the universe, and it's actually quite enlightening to know that man does not and will not understand it; it's a constant reminder of how little and perhaps unimportant we are.

But I don't think we will ever find reason not to have hope in a higher power - I say hope, not faith! For faith involves belief and trust, while hope is simply a wish, however optimistic. Reason is a faculty we should always approach in science and philosophy, but I don't think that reason will ever degrade hope. So hope I shall keep in an afterlife and in graceful gods above, however absurd I think the belief is! The whole concept may seem impossible to me, but again, we know little of the origin of space and time - of everything. And I suppose, then, it is a possibility. Questions will always be raised - and rightfully so - of the origins of the gods. If they created the universe, what created them? And so on. It's endless - for how can something be produced by absolutely nothing. And I don't mean dark matter, or empty space, as you may think of it. I mean nothing. The concept is far above our heads, and like I said, we search the universe and speculate the history and origin. But we can also hope: we can hope that we are not so alone, that a creator with a mind produced us and that there is more to our lives than Earth. As unlikely as this may be, for no evidence of any supernatural force exists... there is always hope!

I think it's fair to say that people are not born with an immediate religious disposition (Christian, Muslim, etc), but the fact that cultures around the world have developed religious beliefs suggests there perhaps is a propensity within people to seek meaning beyond what is concrete and known in the world. But I also deny that children are born atheists, as I said earlier before.