Do you believe in Reincarnation?

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all the other horrible things that happens to some and not others. I just don't see the suffering being shared out at all

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Not others in the actual moment ,but how can one predict what will happen in the future ?
Those who do not suffer now , could you guarantee that they won't suffer in the future ?

That does not mean let them suffer because everyone has his share in life . Life is a labor and a test .First we are asked to work to improve our situations . No one could help you if you don't try to help yourself .Then if you try and you couldn't improve your situation that would be at test of your patience .And you will be rewarded in the afterlife.

For those who do not suffer from the same thing , their sense of humanity is tested .It's your duty to give help to those who are in need and you'll be rewarded for it too.

I would like to add that I'm a muslim not a thesit only . So the afterlife as a reality is an essential principle we explain many things according to it.

This is God's justice . You would say where is the justice because you see the life here as the end of everything .
We see it as the beginning and the end is somewhere else .
There is a meaning and purpose for everything we experience in this transient life . God's wisdom is transcendental .

-so why do we have different paths? why do some people have to be more patient than others, why do some have to experience worse things?

-what if a person commits a crime only because he was born in a bad society, will he be punished in afterlife? maybe he would'nt have committed that crime if he was in a better enviornment.how is this justice?

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Originally Posted by sh_einstein

-so why do we have different paths? why do some people have to be more patient than others, why do some have to experience worse things?

-what if a person commits a crime only because he was born in a bad society, will he be punished in afterlife? maybe he would'nt have committed that crime if he was in a better enviornment.how is this justice?

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There are great elements of truth in your post.Of course man is not solely responsible for what he does. I do not subscribe to the Christain dogma that man has always free will that will shape his entire life's journey and he will account for all that happens. It is rubbish. Now all of us know what indoctrination is, and small chidren in their formative years are very gullible to external stimuli and if some dogmas are indoctrinated into their defenseless or unguarded minds they will succumb to the situations. Crimes happen when the environment turns up very vicious. A baby who is born in a state of poverty will be morally blind and his first need is to satiate his intense hunger, at times at any cost. Why people steal? Because there is no proper distribution system and there are great disparites or inequalities in incomes and that compel people to steal. Man is not in every respect accountable for all the crimes that happen in a particular social setup. Of course the social conditions that prevail there account for all that happens there. It is therefore, physical, social, economic, political, global, ethical, religious or cultural conditions that may shape the individual to a great extent

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Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

This is God's justice

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It's absolutely vital to the concept and administration of justice that it should be transparent. Those who are subject to it must be able to see that it's fair, consistent, proportionate, even-handed and incorruptible. As you say - we can't see that at all, so whatever this is of God's, it's not justice.

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Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

God's wisdom is transcendental .

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Well, it shouldn't be. It's not fair to construct a universe that operates to a set of rules that transcends - or if you like, surpasses - the understanding of the creatures whom you expect to abide by the rules.

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Originally Posted by sh_einstein
-so why do we have different paths? why do some people have to be more patient than others, why do some have to experience worse things?

-what if a person commits a crime only because he was born in a bad society, will he be punished in afterlife? maybe he would'nt have committed that crime if he was in a better enviornment.how is this justice?

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Different paths because He wanted us to follow His path voluntiraly .

It is all a test, everytime I feel that life is non- endurable any more , I think of His promise to those who endure. I regain my strength and remind my self that all the long years we spend here do not equal one moment in the afterlife. That helps me to be more patient and endure my life .
Why do I experience these things while others do not ? I 'm not ego- centric not to see the others . Life is full of misery of everykind . I'm just one drop in the big ocean . You feel it's nothing when you compare it to the ocean . You feel you 're so lucky maybe when comparing and thanks God .

So you don't want to punish who are born in a bad society because it is not their fault .

I 've spent many years in my life saying :It is not my fault , it is not my fault , it is their fault .
I enjoyed the role of the victim and became a slave . Yes I was a slave .
I've known what does mean to be a human being when I stopped saying it is their fault not mine
When I began assuming responsibility , challenging my stituation , trying to improve my self and my conditions . Using my own free will by choosing . At that moment I felt I am a human being . Maybe I did not succeed in everything but at least I tried . I feel ashamed how I spent the most beautiful years in my life being a slave . I did harm to my self much more than others did . And I think this is the most harmful thing a human being could do to himself .
Someone says :" freedom does not mean happiness but being responsible of your own misery ."

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

It's absolutely vital to the concept and administration of justice that it should be transparent. Those who are subject to it must be able to see that it's fair, consistent, proportionate, even-handed and incorruptible. As you say - we can't see that at all, so whatever this is of God's, it's not justice.



Well, it shouldn't be. It's not fair to construct a universe that operates to a set of rules that transcends - or if you like, surpasses - the understanding of the creatures whom you expect to abide by the rules.

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Yes you're right . And because He is just and fair and we cannot grasp the meaning and wisdom behind things easilly ,He explained everything to us in the Qur'an and does not leave us in the darkness .
How could you understand His point if you don't listen to Him/His words?!!!
Have anyone of you read the Qur'an ?!
It is not fair of you to judge before listening to Him .

Edit: After reading sherezade's post, I'm deleting my former comment because it would be unfair if I argue against Islam and the person above me is not allowed to answer to my argument (right here in this thread).

R e m i n d e r:

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Originally Posted by sh_einstein

Why should some people like The African people be born in poverty, why should some people suffer all their life and others don't.The only explanation that I can think of is REINCARNATION, that we all live many times and our situation in our next life depends on the things we have done in our past lives.But then what would Hell and Heaven mean, if we were about to be punished in our next lives?

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Please note that this is a discussion about reincarnation (not about any particular religion) as stated in the OP.

Off-topic posts will be removed without further notice.

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Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

and

Not others in the actual moment ,but how can one predict what will happen in the future ?
Those who do not suffer now , could you guarantee that they won't suffer in the future ?

That does not mean let them suffer because everyone has his share in life . Life is a labor and a test .First we are asked to work to improve our situations . No one could help you if you don't try to help yourself .Then if you try and you couldn't improve your situation that would be at test of your patience .And you will be rewarded in the afterlife.

For those who do not suffer from the same thing , their sense of humanity is tested .It's your duty to give help to those who are in need and you'll be rewarded for it too.

I would like to add that I'm a muslim not a thesit only . So the afterlife as a reality is an essential principle we explain many things according to it.

This is God's justice . You would say where is the justice because you see the life here as the end of everything .
We see it as the beginning and the end is somewhere else .
There is a meaning and purpose for everything we experience in this transient life . God's wisdom is transcendental .

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On suffering - The Buddha's whole path is based upon dealing with suffering as taught in the 4 Noble Truths. But this is not what I had an issue with. You said that the suffering is shared.

I do think we all have our share of suffering . Who said that people who have money do not suffer in their life ?!!
Some lack money , others love . Some lack children others good health . But we all have our share .


It is shared, but rather unequally in my view. How can you compare the sufferings of the rich with the sufferings of the poor and destitute?

I realise that Islam and Christianity have to cope with this inequality of suffering, and that the promise of heaven is central as the idea of a reward. I struggle with the idea of a test though. The thousands who were killed in the Tsunami had no chance - it wasn't a choice they made, or an act that they as individuals committed that resulted in their deaths. I saw a programme after about the beliefs of survivors, and the test theory seemed to sustain them. What that means is that God is willing to kill tens of thousands to test the survivors. I can't see that from a loving and personal God. It is one of the reasons why reincarnation is a more logical belief for myself.

I answered you Dodo via the private messages .

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It is shared, but rather unequally in my view. How can you compare the sufferings of the rich with the sufferings of the poor and destitute?

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If you are rich and you have a kid who has cancer and you have your neighbour who is very poor but his kid does not have cancer ; wouldn't you wish to be like him? What if you lost him ,what would your money do to you ?

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I realise that Islam and Christianity have to cope with this inequality of suffering

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Isn't that equality of suffering ?

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I realise that Islam and Christianity have to cope with this inequality of suffering, and that the promise of heaven is central as the idea of a reward. I struggle with the idea of a test though. The thousands who were killed in the Tsunami had no chance - it wasn't a choice they made, or an act that they as individuals committed that resulted in their deaths.

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We have no free choice in what concerns death. We are doomed to die in that moment and because of that very thing wether it is Tsaunami or car accident or whatever else . Death belongs to God's will .

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I saw a programme after about the beliefs of survivors, and the test theory seemed to sustain them. What that means is that God is willing to kill tens of thousands to test the survivors. I can't see that from a loving and personal God. It is one of the reasons why reincarnation is a more logical belief for myself.

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We survive because it is our destiny not to die in that moment . Our moment has not yet come .That's it . Moreover He does not kill to test others . He uses their death , which is destined , to test the others .
There is a big difference .
This is as you know that someone is going to die tomorow so you ask him to donate his organs to others .
We were going to die with Tsunami or without as that patient was going to die whether you used his corpse to help the others or not . You did not kill him , he was doomed to die , but you tried to benefit from his inevitable death .

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Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

If you are rich and you have a kid who has cancer and you have your neighbour who is very poor but his kid does not have cancer ; wouldn't you wish to be like him? What if you lost him ,what would your money do to you ?

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I realise that Islam and Christianity have to cope with this inequality of suffering

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Isn't that equality of suffering ?

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Caddy, this first quote seems to suggest that, in our Earthly lives, there is an equality of suffering among individuals. Your hypothetical (about the rich and poor men with their healthy or unhealthy children) omits the possibility of there being a rich man with a healthy child, as well as the cases in which the poor have sick children.

You are right that there can sometimes be a balancing out, but there are sufficient examples of people for whom things have gone mostly quite well all of their lives, and people for whom there has been greater than average suffering and unfairness.

I agree with Billl about the inequality of suffering. You only have to look around to see many people who suffer inordinately more than the reast of us. Children are abused, have accidents, suffer bullying - adults suffer depression, acidents, illness - how many people have you met who seem to have multiple illnesses?

As for destiny - who sets destinies if not the creator God?

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Originally Posted by billl

Caddy, this first quote seems to suggest that, in our Earthly lives, there is an equality of suffering among individuals. Your hypothetical (about the rich and poor men with their healthy or unhealthy children) omits the possibility of there being a rich man with a healthy child, as well as the cases in which the poor have sick children.

You are right that there can sometimes be a balancing out, but there are sufficient examples of people for whom things have gone mostly quite well all of their lives, and people for whom there has been greater than average suffering and unfairness.

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I gave that example because paulclem speaks like being rich is everyting in life and like rich are immune against suffering in their life . And because what is emotional is no less important then what is material .

Thx Bill for your comment . You drew my attention to sth wrong I did . I should have said justice not equality . Justice sometimes implies inequality rather than equality .
If you're a teacher , to be just , you cannot give your students equal grades . There should be necessarely difference in grades . Actually God speaks of inequality not equality here and in the afterlife out of justice . He spoke of " preference" , "degrees" , "portions" , and "ranks "among human beings .

He said for instance : We have apportioned among them their livelihood in the life of the world , and raised some of them above others in rank that some of them take labour from others " (az-zukhruf:32)

And if Allâh were to enlarge the provision for His slaves, they would surely rebel in the earth, but He sends down by measure as He wills. Verily! He is in respect of His slaves, the Well-Aware, the All-Seer (of things that benefit them). (Ash-shura:26)

In the first example He explained to us that the aim of this " inequality " is to take labour from each other . If everyone was satisfied and does not lack something , we won't labor to get what we lack . As a result movement in life would stop . And labor is the aim of our existence on earth and gives meaning to it . Moreover our relationship becomes complementry . We complement each other in this way and we depend on each other . No one can stand by his own , he needs something , whether great or trivial , that exists in the other and does not exist in him .
It's a must that the muslims give 2,5% of their money every year to the poors
:"And in their properties there was the right of the Sa'il (the beggar who asks)
and the Mahrûm (the poor who does not ask the others." (alshura:18)
God put to law but at the same time he explains to us why He did so and so . He is transparent in what concerns his wisdom.

I gave that example because paulclem speaks like being rich is everyting in life and like rich are immune against suffering in their life . And because what is emotional is no less important then what is material .

Caddy - I don't know where you got the idea that I think being rich is everything. perhaps you misunderstood one of my examples. I took issue with your statement that suffering is shared out.

If you read my posts you will see that I agreed that eveyone suffers.

What about my other question about who sets a person's destiny?

In the first example He explained to us that the aim of this " inequality " is to take labour from each other . If everyone was satisfied and does not lack something , we won't labor to get what we lack . As a result movement in life would stop . And labor is the aim of our existence on earth and gives meaning to it . Moreover our relationship becomes complementry . We complement each other in this way and we depend on each other . No one can stand by his own , he needs something , whether great or trivial , that exists in the other and does not exist in him .
It's a must that the muslims give 2,5% of their money every year to the poors
:"And in their properties there was the right of the Sa'il (the beggar who asks)
and the Mahrûm (the poor who does not ask the others." (alshura:18)
God put to law but at the same time he explains to us why He did so and so . He is transparent in what concerns his wisdom.

This makes sense in terms of the Islamic tradition and reflect reflects John Donne's "No man is an island". But it does not explain the ineqality of suffering - sometimes extreme suffering that people experience.

On another point - did I read of a Lebanese sect that believed in reincarnation?

Sorry - I just looked it up. The Druze in Lebanon believe in reincarnation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze

Hi Paulclem . I'm sorry . plz accept my apology because I haven't read the whole thread and replies .

And yes there is a whole sect in lebanon who believes in reincarnation . My best friends at the university were Druze but we've never discussed reincarnation or any other thing that relates to their belief . Some are very sensitive to these issues and consider some discussions offensive . So we try to avoid any discussion of this kind .
But here it is a forum, and the very fact of being here means that you are willing to discuss and share your belief with others . I wish you don't consider my discussions offensive .
As a matter of fact reincarnation contradicts the basic principles of Islam , so as a Muslim I cannot accept it ,simply .


In what concerns Destiny . We have like in English another word , I think it's doom . As in the Greek tragedy they said " doomed to his fate .
In Arabic too and in the Qura'n God mentionned both " doom and destiny " .
The doom is the fate that you cannot change because you have not made , you have not chosen ; it is set by God. As a result you are not responsible of your doom face to God .
This is like they said that Oedipus was doomed to his fate .

Destiny is something that will happen in the future , we say my destination . God has a " foreknowledge " of what will happen to you . How would you behave, and what would you do in the future . He has a foreknowledge that you will believe in reincarnation but he did not oblige you to believe in reincarnation . You've chosen this so you will be responsible of this .
So your destiny is the " foreknowledge of God of what will you choose and do ."
He destined something because He knows you will do this very thing but he did not oblige you to do it .

Interesting distinction! I never heard of that before.