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Let me say Paul that Lawrence by writing it the way he did accomplished both the persoanl and the universal. There are other subtle word formations that suggest the personal (I can identify them for you later if you wish) and we know of his personal bio of the writing, and he would have realized people would know that. So i think Lawrence did it right. He accomplished a lot more by the method he chose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Let me say Paul that Lawrence by writing it the way he did accomplished both the persoanl and the universal. There are other subtle word formations that suggest the personal (I can identify them for you later if you wish) and we know of his personal bio of the writing, and he would have realized people would know that. So i think Lawrence did it right. He accomplished a lot more by the method he chose.
I agre with what you're saying. When I read Lawrence's poems, they speak to me personally, and I can see the universality too. Yet in "All Soul's Day" he says of the dead:
They linger in the shadow of the earth.
The Earth's long conical shadow is full of souls
that cannot find the way across the sea of souls.
In "The Houseless Dead" he says:
"Gaunt, gaunt, they crowd the mud beaches of shadow"
"In Beware the Unhappy Dead" he goes even further and seems to attribute the current problems of the time to the unready dead.
I wonder why he wrote about the state of the dead, who are in a kind of limbo, but not about the aftermath of the blivion he describes.
I suppose what I'm trying to get at you may not be able to get from a poem. I was interested to see if his poems revealed his personal beliefs about life after death etc.
Yes, I understand. He may not do that in these poems, but he does in other places. I'm at work now, but I'll try to fill you in when I get home tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Virgil, can't wait to read that. If you sum up Lawrence's views of death it would be interesting to read; but I find myself, that I can't come up with really concrete concepts on what he truly believed by the end. I read Apocalypse, which was a fascinating work, but some disregard it as anything but the ravings of a dying man. I have a copy myself now; originally borrowed it from my library, but I can't seem to locate it presently.
It was begun in early Dec of 1929. The work began as The Revelation of St. John the Divine, but later developed instead into Apocalypse. It was published after Lawrence's death, so it was one of the last things he wrote.
Reference for this information was found in D.H.Lawrence a calender of his works by Sagar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I do not think what is offered within the poem is enough to come to any conclusions about the "house" and just what it is meant to suggest or represent. I could not say from what is offered about it, if it is truly meant to be empty, or populated, we only are given a glimpse of it as the ship comes to port again, but beyond that really nothing is told of it. We could not even really say if it is meant to be heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I'm afraid this will be going off the top of my head. I don' think this poem represents Lawrence's view of the after life, thoough it doesn't necessarily contradict it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I'm not sure I've ever seen a bodily resurrection before in Lawrence, though it's quite possible. The key to Lawrence's notion of the metaphysical is the absence of will. The fall from paradise for Adam and Eve was an act of acquiring ego - self - and that meant will. So our earthly lives are plagued with the notion of egocentrality and exertion of our wills, and that is source of human conflict and wearing away of our lives. The processs onto death and beyond, and for lawrence process is the key to everything, is a process of losing our wills. The ideal, the paradisial promise, is a state of being completely atuned with the natural diety that runs through all. That state is a giving up of will and sacrificing our egos, our selves. Here perhpas it's a little contradictory. At times Lawrence conceptualizes it as a non ego existence, where we are absorbed into this soul. Other times Lawrnce conceptualizes it as containing a sense of identity but without a will. Even here in this poem, you can see the suicide thoughts of the bare bodkin section is an exertion of will. Suicide is a willful act. But in the tenth stanza, the soul has no will, just a state of peace. The symbol for Lawrence of our post physical life nature is that of a flower. A flower stands atuned in nature, living and bright and will-less. It has not central willful self only a state of existence.Quote:
X
The flood subsides, and the body, like a worn sea-shell
emerges strange and lovely.
And the little ship wings home, faltering and lapsing
on the pink flood,
and the frail soul steps out, into the house again
filling the heart with peace.
Swings the heart renewed with peace
even of oblivion.
Oh build your ship of death. Oh build it!
for you will need it.
For the voyage of oblivion awaits you.
Hope that made sense. It's hard to explain without examples, and I don't seem to have my thesison this new laptop, where I did go into this in a particular section.
That was a good poem. I really didn't expect the ending at all. When I first started reading I thought Lawrence was going to do either the tearful elegy thing or maybe the optimistic afterlife thing, but the poem goes in a much more mysterious direction. The first stanzas make it sound like oblivion equals death and the ship is what's permanent and can be carried beyond death--like Good Deeds in Everyman. The rebirth in the last stanzas, though, undercuts these easy connections. If the "oblivion" of this poem is death, then how can it recede? How can one resume their house after dying? The ship becomes similarly problematic. If the ship is about permanent things capable of being brought with the dying then why is the ship lost in darkness? This part of the poem faked me out--in a good way, of course. I'm glad it's not that simple.
That's true. It's interesting that you point to the last stanza as an example of will-less paradise, though. The oblivion of the middle stanzas seems much more will-less than the end. It's in the darkness that the we're told "our strength leaves us" and "we cannot steer." This seems more open and passive than when the speaker is talking about the house. The house is oddly reminiscent of where we were before. The poem says we enter it "again," our heart is "renewed," and "the whole thing starts again." If the speaker was willful before the "whole thing" then he's probably willful at the end when the process starts over at the house. It's only in the oblivion that the speaker sheds his or her volition, and that's only a temporary experience between two episodes of control and willfulness at each end of the poem. The poem seems to be about preparing for those recurring "voyages" into the oblivion when one loses control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
http://www.lawrenceseastwood.co.uk/i...awstatuniv.jpg
I wonder if I can get one of these for my living room
Yeah, I think it's left rather unexplained. We know that we've been in the house before, but beyond that there's nothing specific mentioned about it. Whether it's heaven or not is hard to say. I tend to think not, but it wouldn't be outlandish to say so. To me, though, it's just part and parcel of the scheme built up in this poem that groups everything into either violent, turbulent images or comfortable, domestic ones. The later are associated with immediate, lived existence and the former have more to do with times of inactivity or passivity--like sleep, idleness, or maybe even death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Quote by Quark
hhahahaa....Quark, I think they must have a repro!Quote:
I wonder if I can get one of these for my living room
I will answer you and Virgil's posts tomorrow. You both seem to make a lot of sense to me.
A flower stands atuned in nature, living and bright and will-less. It has not central willful self only a state of existence.
This rang a bell with me from my past...long long past study of a couple of his novels. I think I remember it in his relations to the women in the novels.
I do not think what is offered within the poem is enough to come to any conclusions about the "house" and just what it is meant to suggest or represent. I could not say from what is offered about it, if it is truly meant to be empty, or populated, we only are given a glimpse of it as the ship comes to port again, but beyond that really nothing is told of it. We could not even really say if it is meant to be heaven.
I think you're probably right Dark Muse. I just wondered if anyone could enlighten me further.
The key to Lawrence's notion of the metaphysical is the absence of will.
This seems to be a theme in a number of poems grouped together in my edition. There is much less about the other end, but then the notion of mystery is not uncommon in Lawrence, and perhaps is a greater leap of faith than belief in an established set of beliefs.
I suppose a question is what were poems to Lawrence? Were they streams of thought that he pursued at a particular time, that he might discard or develop later? I was trying to see consistencies in his thought in the poems, but of course he wasnt confined to poetry with his writing.
Your posts make the discussion very interesting. Thanks all.
A flower stands atuned in nature, living and bright and will-less. It has not central willful self only a state of existence.
Not willing but just being. It sounds quite zen like. I wonder what he would have made of Haiku?
You're welcome. Thanks for the interest in Lawrence. As you can guess I've spent a good deal of time with him. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I would say yes to your question above. Lawrence wrote and re-wrote his fiction rather carefully and deliberately. It is not my impression that he did the say with his poems. To some degree they were improvisational. This particular poem is crafted. Like I said, this was the third version, and that's somewhat unusual for Lawrence for his poems.
I am coming in rather late in this discussion - but I just noticed that Janine had posted a snippet from a very short piece I published on Lawrence in Tuscia, the ETruscan area. So thank you -- The ship of death is indeed an Etruscan symbol, as it was in many ancient Mediterranean cultures. They were, after all, a master seagoing people, and tiny clay models of ships are among frequent tomb findings, and are also depicted in frescoes.
Interestingly, in the duomo of orvieto, an Etruscan town, there is a curious detail in one of the great apocalypse frescoes by Signorelli -- of a ship with ghostly rower (Charon) who is painted blue, just like the blue devils of the Etruscan frescoes in Tarquinia -- so the pictorial tradition of the ETruscan boat and rower somehow lived on and was transmitted to relatively recent times.
A wonderful book has been written on Etruscan religion, which corroborates some of Lawrence's own ideas expressed in ETruscan Places --
by a scholar, who like Lawrence, goes against the grain - Giovanni Feo. Unfortunately they have not been published in English and have not been officially recognized by the academe as worthy studies -- but read together with Lawrence's Italian poems, including The Ship of Death, and his Etruscan writings, they are very thought provoking.
On another note - I didn't see if it is listed here -- but the famous letter Lawrence wrote to Katherine Mansfield upon the death of her beloved brother Leslie -- echoes some of the images and moods of The Ship of Death.
Mansfield herself in her diaries occasionally used boat/ship imagery to describe her spiritual condition
Actually, I have also published a novel, The Etruscan ( Wynkin de Worde, Galway Ireland, 2004) which draws inspiration from Lawrence's exploration of the Etruscan area, and from his poem The ship of death.
Oh my gosh LLItaly, did I quote you...something here from your article? I hope you did not mind it. You thanked me so I guess I should say "you're welcome". I suppose quoting articles from the internet does promote the author in some positive way. Did you find this forum in that way? I just checked back a few pages; but didn't see the part of your article I quoted. Could you point out what post # that was?Quote:
Originally Posted by LLItaly
Let me emphasis this. You are never too late for a discussion on Lawrence! Lawrence is my main focus of study and has been for some years now (I have tons of books, digital images and articles); Virgil wrote his thesis on Lawrence: the aspect of 'Transfiguration' in his work (highly interesting). I just pre-ordered Lawrence's Mornings in Mexico - yeah! They finally reprinted it; about time! This is a good sign, I believe. I hope they reprint all his books.
I would love to discuss Lawrence with you any time. Feel free to befriend me (my profile page), so we can bore everyone with our Lawrence ravings! :lol: Also, I wanted to formally welcome you to this forum. I hope you stick around and enjoy some of our Lawrence discussions. We normally have a short story discussion going. We have a thread you might want to look into. We have discovered just how fine a short story author Lawrence is and we have discussed many of his storie, perhaps half to 3/4 so far; we hope to pick up again soon with more short storie discussions. We had formal discussions aslo on Women in Love, followed a little later by Son's and Lovers. If you run searches on these you will no doubt find them but many pages back. I should post in each some tidbit on Lawrence to bring the discussion threads back into the current lineup. In our discussion groups we have learned so much. It has been a joy for me and others as well I am sure.
Oh wow, I love getting this added information. I find this entirely fascinating. I am into detail work, being a visual artist myself; and I love any little bit I don't know, which relates to Lawrence's own observations. I read Etrucan Places and the other travel books and loved them!Quote:
Interestingly, in the duomo of orvieto, an Etruscan town, there is a curious detail in one of the great apocalypse frescoes by Signorelli -- of a ship with ghostly rower (Charon) who is painted blue, just like the blue devils of the Etruscan frescoes in Tarquinia -- so the pictorial tradition of the ETruscan boat and rower somehow lived on and was transmitted to relatively recent times.
I definitely want to look into that book. Thanks for pointing out the author to me. Unfortunately I can't read Italian but maybe it will be translated or I can find excerpts online until it is.Quote:
A wonderful book has been written on Etruscan religion, which corroborates some of Lawrence's own ideas expressed in ETruscan Places --
by a scholar, who like Lawrence, goes against the grain - Giovanni Feo. Unfortunately they have not been published in English and have not been officially recognized by the academe as worthy studies -- but read together with Lawrence's Italian poems, including The Ship of Death, and his Etruscan writings, they are very thought provoking.
Yes, Katherine Mansfield was such a great friend to Lawrence. I think they had similiar or overlapping thoughts on life and death. I would love to read this letter. I have volumes of the letters here and I also have one book of the Collected Letters. Do you know when this letter was written? If I have the date I can look it up. I am vitally interested.Quote:
On another note - I didn't see if it is listed here -- but the famous letter Lawrence wrote to Katherine Mansfield upon the death of her beloved brother Leslie -- echoes some of the images and moods of The Ship of Death.
Mansfield herself in her diaries occasionally used boat/ship imagery to describe her spiritual condition
Marvelous! I would like to look into into getting a copy. Where do you have this for sale? Is it on Amazon? I seem to gather many books from independent authors about Lawrence. Someone pointed out to me the Minoan Experience which is fascinating, even if just for the photos. It deals with the travels of Lawrence. I have only read parts of it so far (so much to read, so little time!) but it's very interesting and well written. I intend to read the entire book someday.Quote:
Actually, I have also published a novel, The Etruscan ( Wynkin de Worde, Galway Ireland, 2004) which draws inspiration from Lawrence's exploration of the Etruscan area, and from his poem The ship of death.
Welcome LL. Nice to have you on lit net and part of our Lawrence circle. I'll ave to look up that letter to Mansfield. It doesn't ring a bell. When was it written? Around 1918 or so?Quote:
Originally Posted by LLItaly
Like Janine, I too would love to discuss Larence with you.