Sex and the Koran

I think I know what aspect of Western culture you are troubled by, Nightshade, - and it troubles me too. But the other sorts of trouble for women in other parts of the world are harder to tackle, due to a strong handed male presence in the legal and political sphere. What many do by force without repercussions cannot be accomplished in the west, except sparcely - and all depending on clever hiding of it all.

Where the western problem has occurred in the workplace, I have stood against the majority, tried to dissuade females from caring to cater to them, and have actually walked from one city to another after a hard day's work to avoid riding with a married guy that flirted with a young co-worker. Just today, a woman from the local news paper that had said an offensive remark to me heard from one of my bosses that I was not the sort of person to make a carnal joke to, and she apologized for it. Here I can impact others freely - but what can an African or more easterly father or brother do whose child is abducted and made a sex-slave, and then cannot convince the police in his country to even bother with his desparate case?

Ok I have no intention of being rude or offensive but, havent you ever heard of white slavery? I forget the exsact statistics but they are much higher in the west than nearly anywhere else. or raher the west is the market where the slaves are bought to.
Can I ask if you only knowthis stuff from western sources? Becasue it doesnt quite work like that. If anything in the arb world tehey have to hide it more becasue alot of what your talking about would lead to capital punishment however you are. If you donty get caught by the law the masses woukld end up revolting and you lose your head or worse youd be caught alive.
That kind of abuse of women is takn very very seriously. I mean Rape is a capital punshment and in there your morelikly to gt convited than the west were its so much harder to do.
Anyway I hope that didnt come across a srude.:D

Most such activity by western whites occur far from their homeland, in places far from the west, where the men of that land provide girls to them. These westerners would lose much of their hold on female victims if they did not find environments that facilitated their crimes.

It has nothing to do with ethnicity, but rather with cultural and geographical strongholds. I hope that clarifies my statement, without tripping up my post with spills of politics. In trying to go back over a previous statement, I am also trying to avoid widening the margin of political content. It seems this last exchange was general enough (I hope).

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but what can an African or more easterly father or brother do whose child is abducted and made a sex-slave, and then cannot convince the police in his country to even bother with his desparate case?

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What does this have to do with Islam? Does the Qur'an say that ANY woman should be made a sex-slave? Trafficking mostly happens in poor countries where families are so desperate that they resort to these things. One of the countries where it happens the most is Ukraine, where majority of people living are Christians. If it happens in muslim countries, then I have not heard of it, because it would go against EVERYTHING Islam stands for. Every time we have a discussion you simply bring on million of different unfounded accusations, that you never support with any kind of references, and when you see that you made a mistake, then you simply move on to the next, even more ludicrous accusation. :confused:
What if I would say that since some Christian countries are working towards legalizing prostitution (Australia for example), that means that Bible promotes prostitution and forces these women to sell their bodies. You see how absurd your way of discussing things is? You continue to mix what people in some countries (that may or may not have a distinctive muslim population) do with what the religion itself stands for. Every third American woman is abused by a men, does that mean that the Bible promotes this kind of behavior? Then there is child abuse by priests!!!!? Does that mean the Bible promotes this behavior? After all, they are the saints you pray to, and ask for forgiveness,and supposedely they are holy? The USA has the highest divorce rate of any other industrial nation. I must conclude, based on these observations, that Christianity promotes child abuse, prostitution, and divorce. There we go. :D

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Originally Posted by “Amra”

What if I would say that since some Christian countries are working towards legalizing prostitution (Australia for example), that means that Bible promotes prostitution and forces these women to sell their bodies.

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If you were to say that, you would be guilty of putting forward a flawed argument. Is legalising prostitution is the same as ‘forcing’ women to sell their bodies? By the way, how many western democracies consider women sufficiently different from their male masters to justify denying them the right to drive?

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Originally Posted by “Amra”

You see how absurd your way of discussing things is? You continue to mix what people in some countries (that may or may not have a distinctive muslim population) do with what the religion itself stands for.

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Isn’t what people do in ‘some countries’ a good way of understanding what the religion stands for? It might not give us the letter of the law so to speak but it gives a good idea of how that law translates into the behaviour of the man and woman on the street, especially in countries where the political system is not entirely independent of those countries’ religions.

Would you say that there is absolutely no correlation between the tenets of a particular religion and the attitude towards women characteristic of those who practise that religion? Having lived in and visited a number of different countries for over twenty years, I would say it does. This does not mean that I believe any particular religious text is responsible for promoting certain behaviour towards women but that certain attitudes are embedded within those texts; or rather that certain generated meanings become foregrounded and others (if they exist at all) are marginalized.

I find the situation here in Thailand very interesting. The majority of Thais consider themselves to be Buddhist. Despite the perception of many people in the West, the majority of Thai prostitution caters for Thai men. So-called sex tourists are simply far more visible in the western press so the uninformed assume that the whole country is filled with women exploited by western males. Interestingly, western males aren’t the only males who make use of the services of Thai women. There are particular areas that cater for particular nationalities or cultures. As a ‘farang’ (what the Thais call ‘foreigners’), I am used to waking around the bar girls areas of Bangkok and being told repeatedly, ‘you handsome man’. However, when I stray into an area where most of the restaurants and bars display Japanese characters in their name signs, I am completely ignored. These areas are strictly for very rich Japanese men and the girls are, by western standards, more attractive and usually in their late teens and early twenties.

The Soi 3 area of Sukhumvit caters for Muslim males. The prostitutes there are generally very different from those in other areas. They tend to be older, more weathered and usually darker skinned (the Thais seem to revere fair skin).

When I get the chance, I try talking to the prostitutes in whichever area they work. I have been told on a number of occasions that the Soi 3 area women are older and more weathered because only the more desperate will cater for Muslim men. They say that these men treat them appallingly and anyone who can make a living from being desired by western men will do so and avoid commerce with those who treat them like pigs. Those who are not considered attractive to western eyes have to endure being treated like animals. Should I assume that these men’s values are in no way the product of a certain attitudes enshrined in their ‘beliefs’? Is it surprising that women are treated as objects by supposed proponents of a faith that affords them few freedoms?

Perhaps people should ask themselves one simple question – As a woman, would I prefer to live in a country promoting western values or one promoting Islamic ones? I don’t think it should take them too long to reach a decision.

Unnamable,

As I stated, it is ludicrous to take couple of men who may be muslims just because they were born into the religion without practicing any part of it, and say that they represent Islam in any way. Then, I would say that prostitution, divorce, child abuse, violence, adultery, killing, raping, drugs, and promiscuity are all values that Christianity is promoting as they happen in Christian countries, committed by Christians (I say here that they are Christians because you call those men, who commit adultery and are involved in trafficing, Muslims), on a regular basis.

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Isn’t what people do in ‘some countries’ a good way of understanding what the religion stands for? It might not give us the letter of the law so to speak but it gives a good idea of how that law translates into the behaviour of the man and woman on the street, especially in countries where the political system is not entirely independent of those countries’ religions.

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Not at all. In all of those countries reilgion is NOT implemented as the law of the country, but it is completely a private issue. You could just as well call them atheist countries, because, firstly their law is based on secular ideas, and secondly, there are just as many atheists living in those contries as there are people practicing the religion. We can then blame atheism for all they do just as well. If the country was based on Islamic law, than you would have reason to say that the behavior of the people shows the values of that ruling force, which in that case would be the shariah law.

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As a woman, would I prefer to live in a country promoting western values or one promoting Islamic ones? I don’t think it should take them too long to reach a decision.

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I don't think so either.

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Originally Posted by Amra

Unnamable,

As I stated, it is ludicrous to take couple of men who may be muslims just because they were born into the religion without practicing any part of it, and say that they represent Islam in any way. Then, I would say that prostitution, divorce, child abuse, violence, adultery, killing, raping, drugs, and promiscuity are all values that Christianity is promoting as they happen in Christian countries, committed by Christians (I say here that they are Christians because you call those men, who commit adultery and are involved in trafficing, Muslims), on a regular basis.

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A couple men?
The ones being called muslims call themselves muslims. The communist leaders of Ukraine you referred to earlier are atheists by profession (even if they secretly want to be Christian). The Russian revolution that placed the communists in power brutalized Christians, and many Ukrainian girls prostitute themselves but do not like to think about Religion at all at this time in their lives. You have literally equated westerners who do not like Christianity at all with Christians, just to render tit for tat with anyone who accepts a man's self description as a muslim.

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The communist leaders of Ukraine you referred to earlier are atheists by profession (even if they secretly want to be Christian).

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Insider information?

:D

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The Russian revolution that placed the communists in power brutalized Christians, and many Ukrainian girls prostitute themselves but do not like to think about Religion at all at this time in their lives.

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What is this supposed to mean? They don't like to think about Religion? So?

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You have literally equated westerners who do not like Christianity at all with Christians, just to render tit for tat with anyone who accepts a man's self description as a muslim.

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LOL. This is so funny. Every Christian who commits a sin is either secretly a commi, someone who doesn't think about Religion all the time:), or actually doesn't like Christianity, but those who come from muslim countries and commit a crime are Muslims for sure and there is no doubt about that. :banana: What hyporcrisy. Well, maybe in Christianity you don't have defined ways of knowing who a Christian is and who is not, but in Islam we have that very well defined. Someone can call himself a Superman, that doesn't mean he can fly. :D Anyways, unless you have some kind of an argument stating that the holy Qur'an or Prophet MOhammed a.s promoted any of these things, I really have nothing to say.

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The ones being called muslims call themselves muslims

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Andrea (don't know her last name, but you will know her as the woman who drowned all 5 of her children) called herself a Christian and said God told her to do this. Is she a Christian or a commi pretending to be a Christian?

Millions of people in USA calling themselves Christians and at the same time going out clubbing, sleeping around, and committing adultery, are they Christians or commis? :lol:

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The communist leaders of Ukraine you referred to earlier are atheists by profession (even if they secretly want to be Christian

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Then it is the atheists how promote trafficking. :lol: I wish for an atheist to tell me what they think of this. This is getting funnier and funnier.

who is this Tariq Ali???I've never heard of him !!!!is he qualified to speak about the Quran??

I 've always admired Amra's directness in her answers…go on Amra dude.

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Originally Posted by “Amra”

As I stated, it is ludicrous to take couple of men who may be muslims just because they were born into the religion without practicing any part of it, and say that they represent Islam in any way. Then, I would say that prostitution, divorce, child abuse, violence, adultery, killing, raping, drugs, and promiscuity are all values that Christianity is promoting as they happen in Christian countries, committed by Christians, on a regular basis.

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Although it might make it easier for you if it were, this is not what I was arguing. My point isn’t that the behaviour of single individuals is an indication of the true nature of their religion but that the nature of that religion influences the behaviour of individuals. I’m not interested in whether or not an individual Christian commits rape. I am, however, interested in whether or not a religious ideology makes rape more or less likely because of its deeply embedded assumptions about women. About that, I think we can all draw our own conclusions.

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Originally Posted by “Amra”

Not at all. In all of those countries reilgion is NOT implemented as the law of the country, but it is completely a private issue. You could just as well call them atheist countries, because, firstly their law is based on secular ideas, and secondly, there are just as many atheists living in those contries as there are people practicing the religion. We can then blame atheism for all they do just as well. If the country was based on Islamic law, than you would have reason to say that the behavior of the people shows the values of that ruling force, which in that case would be the shariah law.

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I think you misunderstood my point here. The U.K. is a broadly Christian country. If you want to see what this means at the level of daily life as it is lived there, then it would be a good idea to live there oneself and interact with as many of the people and as much of the culture as possible. From that experience, you should get an awareness of what that culture is like and of how women are viewed. This is partly how I have reached my own conclusions - by travelling in certain countries with a western girlfriend and having to see her groped and leered at by those who assume all western women are whores. Why do they think that? Why is it that when I see the religious representatives of these countries, I rarely see women in positions of authority?

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Originally Posted by “Amra”

I don't think so either.

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I didn’t think you would – I note your location as the United States so I guess you have made your own decision. And of course we all know that women all over the world are desperate to flee their appalling oppression by the child-abusing, drunken, lascivious, misogynistic West by emigrating to Muslim countries.

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am, however, interested in whether or not a religious ideology makes rape more or less likely because of its deeply embedded assumptions about women. About that, I think we can all draw our own conclusions.

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Sure we can discuss that, but then you would need to bring some kind of proof from the religious sources showing that Islam indeed promotes ideas about women that would lead to them becoming victims of rape.