You are right, Petrarch. I don't know what I was thinking. It was really late when I posted that and I wasn't quite an authority on myself at the time.
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You are right, Petrarch. I don't know what I was thinking. It was really late when I posted that and I wasn't quite an authority on myself at the time.
I wanted to get a better idea of what we were talking about so I ran a search for major postmodern poets. I didn't come up with much. I re-read some of Howl by Allen Ginsberg which was more repetitious than I remembered it being. The first section is enjoyable through, "angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night," but after that he loses me. Section two is fine, but section three is a snooze.
I took a look at Lawrence Ferlinghetti's work. Not only isn't it very good, his line jumps around like a child who needs to go to the bathroom. What's with this? I could understand if he was trying to express movement or the physical nature of his subject the way Herbert did with Easter Wings, but he did that jumpy thing with half the poems I looked at.
Lastly, I checked out some of Roethke's poems, since there's a discussion going on about him in one of the other threads. I still don't like him, but In A Dark Time wasn't that bad. The line "Dark, dark my light, and darker my desire." resonated a little bit. I got the feeling I'd read it somewhere before, either in Virgil, Dante, Milton, or Blake. Who knows, I might have read the poem before and forgotten it? It did remind me of Milton's "No light; but rather darkness visible" from Book I of Paradise Lost.
I'd rather read Robert Penn Warren though if I had to choose strictly between American poets who won the Pulitzer around that time. For instance, his Two Pieces After Suetonius is quite good.
Try Jay Macpherson's The Boatman (I believe now published with another work in Poems Twice Told). That is a phenomenal work, though it doesn't excerpt well at all.
For a second there, I thought you were recommending James Macpherson and his Ossian poems.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBI
I couldn't find any of Jay Macpherson's poems online. Could you link to one, or provide a passage of text?
After a visit to my local Borders I find myself almost agreeing with Leabhar. 21 different volumes by Maya Angelou, 22 by Charles Bukowski, 11 by Ginsberg... and one volume (an older one at that) by Ashberry, nothing by Wilbur, nothing by Heaney, nothing by Hecht... in fact only a single volume by Yeats. I was actually amazed to find 4 volumes by Anne Carson.:(
This is due to the fact that poetry is no longer a viable product to book sellers, and all of you are ignoring the small presses, where most poets have to cut their teeth. Try buying a subscription to The Indiana Review:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
Try doing the same with contemporary literary novels though - poetry is only one wall - it not containing any of the goods has no bearing - that is what the small shop is for, and the internet. You'd be pressed to find much value in a Barnes and Noble, outside of the classic section.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
You really need to read periodicals, and order books from poets who are reviewed there, or who are published there, in order to get anything of value. That is relatively the same for prose, though the literary-novel section in a library tends to be a little decent, though most of them are mainstream novels with perhaps a little bit more depth, like the Hossieni novels that are popular these days.
Seriously though, specialty bookstores are the only places to find good books, without having to go through too much of a pain. It's the same with prose too for the most part.
Just think though, of the amount of sales Lyrical Ballads, or even Leaves of Grass got. Wordsworth and Coleridge weren't at all popular after their initial publication, and were saved by a slowly growing cult status that evolved by fluke around them, with fantastic prose writers like Lamb and Hazlitt there to champion their works. Whitman got a little luckier in that he caused controversy, and therefore had that for advertisement, though his sales were rather mediocre as well, and he suffered losing his job.
Barnes and Noble is what it is - a store designed to make money, by providing the most sought after texts, in the most convenient location. Poetry isn't sought after, and therefore hardly appears in said bookstore.
Tell me about it. I get most of my books either at used book stores... including one that purchases entire estates and sells them all at $1-$2 per book (of course they are all just shelved at random... no logical order at all... but that makes the great finds all the more exciting:lol:) I seriously think that my own poetry collection would take up more linear shelf space than that at Borders... and I don't have a single Bukowski or Maya Angelou (although I do own Ginsberg's Howl... signed by the author, even). There was actually more shelf space devoted to Buddhism (mostly new age crap) and Judaica (in a very un-Jewish side of town) then there was to poetry as a whole.
It's a hard question to answer when you don't define what you mean by "modern" and "real poetry".
I can vouch that not all current poets try to mimic James Joyce. Many of them are very accessible. Those who imitate the experimental mentalities of say, Cummings are not always drivel.
Try reading Louise Gluck. She is one of my favorite current poets. Her imagery may sometimes be quite abstract, but it's emotional impact is very real, and so are her poetry's merits, whether she writes in iambic pentameter or not.
I hate to see someone shut themselves off from potential new literary loves by making broad assumptions.
Leabhar, where are you? Concession is nigh!:DQuote:
After a visit to my local Borders I find myself almost agreeing with Leabhar.
I have a suspicion that Bukowski has some great deal going with Barnes and Noble. Angelou, I know is pretty popular (though, still, 21 volumes?!), but I haven't, actually met enough people who read, or have even heard of Bukowski, to convince me that there's actually a big enough market for the 20 + volumes that adorn every B&N store (maybe his publisher gives discounts for buying in bulk).Quote:
21 different volumes by Maya Angelou, 22 by Charles Bukowski, 11 by Ginsberg... and one volume (an older one at that) by Ashberry, nothing by Wilbur, nothing by Heaney, nothing by Hecht... in fact only a single volume by Yeats. I was actually amazed to find 4 volumes by Anne Carson.
I agree that the poetry selection in most Barnes and Noble/Borders stores is no good. I'm guessing I must have more volumes of poetry in my own collection than the poetry section of the B&N near me in California (not counting the Shakespeare, which is not too shabby there). The one here in Chicago has a slightly better selection, I think because they're in a University neighborhood and are trying to compete with all the truly fabulous bookstores around the U of C. Your estate sale store sounds fabulous. I didn't know there were any used book shops that just randomly shelved things anymore, allowing for great finds. I thought they all meticulously combed through and organized stuff in an attempt to make a killing on e-bay. :pQuote:
I get most of my books either at used book stores... including one that purchases entire estates and sells them all at $1-$2 per book (of course they are all just shelved at random... no logical order at all... but that makes the great finds all the more exciting) I seriously think that my own poetry collection would take up more linear shelf space than that at Borders... and I don't have a single Bukowski or Maya Angelou (although I do own Ginsberg's Howl... signed by the author, even). There was actually more shelf space devoted to Buddhism (mostly new age crap) and Judaica (in a very un-Jewish side of town) then there was to poetry as a whole.
Too many posts to respond too. :D
When I was talking about the five year old thing, I believe I said something like "a lot of people think..." before that, which indicates to the reader that it wasn't my own opinion... The Emperors New Clothes thing was used in a poem and was referring only to the type of free verse it was imitating. And you accuse me of sweeping statements? Also, the attempted lambasting of your opponent as dumb or simple minded is just going to work against you when you're proven wrong on some detail.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
I'm telling you Petrarch there is a real constituency for Bukowski. You should see some of the arguments I've had here and elsewhere over him. You may be shocked but he will make the college classroom one day, if not already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
My Borders is not bad and neither is the Barnes and Noble on Staten Island is not too bad either. But the Barnes & Noble in up town Manhattan is excellent! You can find almost anyone. I guess I'm lucky living in New York. But why don't you people order from Amazon or one of the other on line book stores? If you know what you want you can find it at a reasonable price.Quote:
I agree that the poetry selection in most Barnes and Noble/Borders stores is no good. I'm guessing I must have more volumes of poetry in my own collection than the poetry section of the B&N near me in California (not counting the Shakespeare, which is not too shabby there). The one here in Chicago has a slightly better selection, I think because they're in a University neighborhood and are trying to compete with all the truly fabulous bookstores around the U of C. Your estate sale store sounds fabulous. I didn't know there were any used book shops that just randomly shelved things anymore, allowing for great finds. I thought they all meticulously combed through and organized stuff in an attempt to make a killing on e-bay. :p
Yes... I remember that Barnes and Nobles from when I lived in NY (well actually Jersey City). They may have to compete with various other stores with quality collections that supply the demand of college students, etc... Ne York has some great amenities. Unfortunately, the cost of living isn't among them. I couldn't lease a decent parking space for the month for what I pay for a 1500 square foot studio space plus woodshop... and the lease on my garage in NY would probably pay my mortgage twice over.
I absolutely agree, the cost of living sucks!! :lol: So allow me to enjoy the bookstores. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild