Antony and Cleopatra anyone?

wow! looks like youve made great progess for A&C Virgil. I havent got to Scene 3 yet but ill read it by the end of today and hopefully have some comments too.

Fantastic points Virgil! :D I just read the scene myself and was cracking up all along. It makes you think what the intended reading might have been. Was her manipulation and cunningness supportive of a positive reading on her behalf and therefore more feminist, or is the portryel of her character meniacal and evil and therefore more misogynous?

Then was the time for words: no going then;
Eternity was in our lips and eyes,
Bliss in our brows' bent; none our parts so poor,
But was a race of heaven: they are so still,
Or thou, the greatest soldier of the world,
Art turn'd the greatest liar.
Look how she manipulates his love and contradicts her earlier opinions we observed in the first scene! Before politics and work meant the world to her and she found Antony's puppy eyes a useless distraction. Now she pits his fears of letting life pass him by against him.She makes a single trip sound like the death to all emotion and passion between them, playing on both his personal fears , feelings and possibly his carnal desires. I think there may also be a sexual level to her installment of fear."none our parts so poor" Any double meaning there?
What im trying to figure out is what Shakespeare intends in constantly contrasting and reversing the emotional and behaviour roles of Cleopatra and Antony. They seem to play eachothers binary opposition in terms of priortization of love over work, or vice versa, in every dialogue. But who wears what set of opinions seems to depend on Cleopatra's current state of want .She just wields that much power over him. Yikes.

Antony-- Our Italy
Shines o'er with civil swords: Sextus Pompeius
Makes his approaches to the port of Rome:
Equality of two domestic powers
Breed scrupulous faction: the hated, grown to strength,
Are newly grown to love: the condemn'd Pompey

Look at that! He's playing the same game agaisnt her now that she played on him the first scene. Trying to educate her of the importance of his actions to change her own opinion. This may be a somewhat feminist reading, but perhaps it shows how he thinks her anger only sprouts from her political ignorance and he must enlighten her to calm it. And even more so, that might be exactly what Cleopatra wanted. Perhaps he's just marching into her manipulative web. She could be feigning dumb to evoke his sympathy and affection by promoting his sense of manhood and superiorty over her.


Antony--I go from hence
Thy soldier, servant; making peace or war
As thou affect'st.
*makes whipping motion*

Sir, you and I must part, but that's not it:
Sir, you and I have loved, but there's not it;
That you know well: something it is I would,
O, my oblivion is a very Antony,
And I am all forgotten.
She doesnt seem satisfied with anything. What kind of insecurities dwell in that royal mind to sprout such a black and white, all or nothing view?

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Originally Posted by dramasnot6

Look at that! He's playing the same game agaisnt her now that she played on him the first scene. Trying to educate her of the importance of his actions to change her own opinion. This may be a somewhat feminist reading, but perhaps it shows how he thinks her anger only sprouts from her political ignorance and he must enlighten her to calm it. And even more so, that might be exactly what Cleopatra wanted. Perhaps he's just marching into her manipulative web. She could be feigning dumb to evoke his sympathy and affection by promoting his sense of manhood and superiorty over her.

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Well, from his point of view, the situation is real and threatning to Rome. I'm not sure he's playing a game. Whether she undertands and plays dumb or she doesn't I don't know. Antony feels the need to rationalize it to her, probably because she is the stronger will of the two. In Roman literature this echoes Virgil's Aeneid, where Aeneas leaves Dido. There Aeneas does it out of his strong will.

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Originally Posted by dramasnot6

Fantastic points Virgil! :D I just read the scene myself and was cracking up all along. It makes you think what the intended reading might have been. Was her manipulation and cunningness supportive of a positive reading on her behalf and therefore more feminist, or is the portryel of her character meniacal and evil and therefore more misogynous?

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I guess that would be in the eye of the beholder. To me it's somewhere in between. To me she's powerful, but she's also cunning in a "feminine" sort of way. She's Cleopatra!

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What im trying to figure out is what Shakespeare intends in constantly contrasting and reversing the emotional and behaviour roles of Cleopatra and Antony. They seem to play eachothers binary opposition in terms of priortization of love over work, or vice versa, in every dialogue. But who wears what set of opinions seems to depend on Cleopatra's current state of want .She just wields that much power over him. Yikes.

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That's a very interesting point. I was just thinking of the binary situation between Rome and Egypt. I was going to bring that out in the differences between scenes 4 and 5.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Schoky - I think you're confusing the early days with the war between them that ultimately occurs. We're questioning whether once the conspirators killed Julius Ceasar, Octavius and Antony faught. We're saying that they didn't fight, despite not liking each other, then they share the empire as part of the second triumpherate, and after that they fight a war, which we see in the play. I hope that made sense.

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Well, err...no, not really :D. The source I quoted in my last post with Antonius's and Octavian's army movements does refer to the time before the defeat of the conspirators. (Even at that early point, Antonius's troops weren't exactly loyal, as later in the ultimate war between them they again weren't). They reconciled after Antonius suffered some kind of defeat (and here I previously had confused him with Octi), and got rid of the bad boys together:

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Originally Posted by http://www.roman-emperors.org/auggie.htm

Shortly after Mutina (where A. was defeated), Octavian had begun showing signs of seeking a reconciliation with Antony; now, he acted resolutely.[...]The two met, with Antony's supporter, M. Aemilius Lepidus, on an island in a river near Bononia. Two days of difficult negotiation produced an agreement: the three Caesarians were to form a "Board of Three for Organizing the State" (triumviri rei publicae constituendae).

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But never mind :).

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Originally Posted by Schokokeks

Well, err...no, not really :D. The source I quoted in my last post with Antonius's and Octavian's army movements does refer to the time before the defeat of the conspirators. They reconciled after Antonius suffered some kind of defeat (and here I previously had confused him with Octi), and got rid of the bad boys together.
But let's just forget it, okay ? :D

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OK, I accept it. It is possible, I just don't remember it. ;) It's not really that important to play anyways. Have you been reading? Any comments?

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Originally Posted by dramasnot6

wow! looks like youve made great progess for A&C Virgil. I havent got to Scene 3 yet but ill read it by the end of today and hopefully have some comments too.

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So far I'm in the middle of the fourth act, but I definetely need to go through it once again, as I really don't feel like I've understood anything beside the very very main plot :(. I don't know why I find it that hard to concentrate on this play. Maybe it's the language (though there are some Shakespeare plays I didn't have that much difficulty with), or the fact that I have only time for reading it when riding public transportation, which might not be the easiest environment to enjoy Willy.
But I'll definetely hold on and can maybe contribute some points by the time you're nearly done with the discussion :p.

PS: Virgil, I edited my post above for some more enlightenment :D. But you're right, it's not really important anyway.

aww im sure youll get the hang of it. I dont know a cookie smarter then my schoky cookie! :D looking forward to your contribution!!

Well, Schoky, it sounds like you're correct. By the way, I've noticed there is a new biography out on Augustus. http://www.amazon.com/Augustus-Life-.../dp/1400061288. I've read Everitt's biography of Cicero and it was excellent.

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Originally Posted by Schokokeks

So far I'm in the middle of the fourth act, but I definetely need to go through it once again, as I really don't feel like I've understood anything beside the very very main plot :(. I don't know why I find it that hard to concentrate on this play. Maybe it's the language (though there are some Shakespeare plays I didn't have that much difficulty with), or the fact that I have only time for reading it when riding public transportation, which might not be the easiest environment to enjoy Willy.
But I'll definetely hold on and can maybe contribute some points by the time you're nearly done with the discussion :p.

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Yes, don't worry Schoky. I used to have the same trouble when I was our age with Shakespeare, and I'm a native english speaker. Has any of my comments helped? Or what do you think of them?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Good points Drama. Whatever happened to Sleepywitch. She started this all, and has never showed up? :lol: But I'm glad I'm reading it. I'll have comments on scene three, a very interesting scene, a bit later.

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have you missed me? :) the revised version of my story is up and here I am ready to talk about Act I :) ooops, yeah I know I'm late

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Originally Posted by Petrarch

As for Cleopatra, since Virg. didn't get to her. She's the ultimate tease in this scene. Poor Antony doesn't have a chance. She's angry with him if he shows signs of paying attention to Fulvia's message, and she's petulant if he claims he doesn't care for Fulvia, and the more she's contradictory and cross, the more he tries to please.

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Originally Posted by dramasnot

aww anthony is so love sick...i love how Shakespeare presents Cleo, the female, as the practical "lets get back to business" one.

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yep, I got that impression, too. She actually urges him to read the message and deal with the politics while he dotes and is totally befuddled. But she conceals her interest in what's going on in the empire by teasing him.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch

since if he married Fulvia without loving her, it's also possible that his promises to Cleopatra were made without any real love. I think the reason she's going so overboard about exerting her power in this scene has to do with her own insecurities. After all, in the next line, ("I'll seem the fool I am not") she shows that she's afraid on some level that she's being made a fool of.

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You mean she is not his wife (the fool I'm not) but since he may not love either of them, she is in the same situation as the wife and so she is a fool like the wife?

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Originally Posted by Act I, scene II

HARMIAN.
Good now, some excellent fortune! Let me be married to three
kings in a forenoon, and widow them all: let me have a child at
fifty, to whom Herod of Jewry may do homage: find me to marry me
with Octavius Caesar, and companion me with my mistress.

SOOTHSAYER.
You shall outlive the lady whom you serve.

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hum, I was wondering, do these lines somehow poke fun at Cleopatra? I mean, she was wife/mistress to at least three powerful men: her half-brother Ptolemy, J.Caesar, Antony (Octavious offers a truce if she follows him to Rome as a trophy) and she kind of 'widows' them all. --> You shall outlive the lady whom you serve. = what you just said reads like Cleo's CV, but,no, your fate will be different.
The Herod of Jewry bit doesn't fit in of course...
hehe, I know it's rubbish but it would be hilarious if that's what it meant.

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Originally Posted by Act I, scene 2

IRAS.
There's a palm presages chastity, if nothing else.

CHARMIAN.
E'en as the o'erflowing Nilus presageth famine.

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Hehehe, I love these lines :)
Doesn't Cleopatra stand for fertility (the godess Isis), too, just like the Nile? So this would also imply that Cleo is as chaste as the Nile is infertile?

hehe, I'm not saying her servants deliberately mock her, but on a "meta-level" these lines might allude to her????

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

have you missed me? :) the revised version of my story is up and here I am ready to talk about Act I :) ooops, yeah I know I'm late

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Well, you got us to read it. :p Yes I missed you. ;)

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hum, I was wondering, do these lines somehow poke fun at Cleopatra? I mean, she was wife/mistress to at least three powerful men: her half-brother Ptolemy, J.Caesar, Antony (Octavious offers a truce if she follows him to Rome as a trophy) and she kind of 'widows' them all. --> You shall outlive the lady whom you serve. = what you just said reads like Cleo's CV, but,no, your fate will be different.

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Good point. I think it is a slant reference to Cleo.

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Doesn't Cleopatra stand for fertility (the godess Isis), too, just like the Nile? So this would also imply that Cleo is as chaste as the Nile is infertile?

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But wouldn't fertility imply children? Well, she certainly stands for sexuality. The servants sexual bantering in that scene I think is a contrast to the Roman seriousness and stoicism.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

But wouldn't fertility imply children? Well, she certainly stands for sexuality. The servants sexual bantering in that scene I think is a contrast to the Roman seriousness and stoicism.

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oops, yes you're right.

I'll try and read the 2nd and 3rd Act tonight.
what act/scene are you discussing?

I was about to start something on the second act.

cool. then I'll read as much as I can and post tomorrow (GMT+1 :) now it's Monday 1.40 p.m.)