Drinking in Moderation

Just FYI, until late 80-s, the earliest age for woman to be legally married in my country is 12 yo. This rule applied to accomodate the lifestyle of people living in the village, where level of education and knowledge of child/mother health care were still low. The age limitation then increase to 18 yo, which mostly aimed to lower death rate of mother and her baby due to early birth/pregnancy.


As for drinking alcohol, if I'm not mistaken, there's a verse in Bible that said (more or less) " it is easier for camel to enter needle hole, than for rich man to enter kingdom of heaven". However, I don't think Christianity prohibits its followers to be rich. It's ok to eat; but if you eat excessively, then it'd lead to problems. So same thing apply with drinking alcohol I guess.

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Originally Posted by subterranean

Just FYI, until late 80-s, the earliest age for woman to be legally married in my country is 12 yo. This rule applied to accomodate the lifestyle of people living in the village, where level of education and knowledge of child/mother health care were still low. The age limitation then increase to 18 yo, which mostly aimed to lower death rate of mother and her baby due to early birth/pregnancy.


As for drinking alcohol, if I'm not mistaken, there's a verse in Bible that said (more or less) " it is easier for camel to enter needle hole, than for rich man to enter kingdom of heaven". However, I don't think Christianity prohibits its followers to be rich. It's ok to eat; but if you eat excessively, then it'd lead to problems. So same thing apply with drinking alcohol I guess.

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There is a verse in the New Testament, in the Epistle of Timothy, which says " a LITTLE wine is good for the health." Theologians often point to this and emphasize that the verse recommends moderation rather than drinking a whole lot. Many Protestant groups believe very strongly that any alcohol is bad. One new minister to a certain church gave a sermon about the very first miracle which Jesus is said to have worked, at the marriage in Cana, changing water to wine. The parishoners became furious because the minister mentioned alcoholic beverage. There are Christian denominations which insist that Jesus used grape juice for the Eucharist at the Last Supper, and that "new wine" refers to grape juice. But this is obviously inaccurate, since in the Book of Acts, at Pentecost, it mentions that everyone thought the Apostles drunk with new wine.

I have my own little idealism that I live by - Do what you want to do, as long as, in doing this, you do not offend or hurt or expect others to do the same as you. This has served me well over the years, I do not follow any other eligion than this.
I have recently moved house and my new neighbours are two american christian faith workers... they travel to schools and churches to spread their love of Jesus. When I moved in they asked me to come and party with them. That was how they phrased it "Come party with us!!". So I turned up, when they said with a small bottle of vodka and a bottle of coke.
They were actually disgusted with the fact that I had brought alcohol to their place with the intension of getting a bit drunk.
I understand that it was THEIR house and I respect that they are (as I now know) not drinkers of alcohol - but as they threw me out the door I couldn't help but think, 'You could have simply not drank it!!'

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Originally Posted by adilyoussef

I want to ask some questions. Why do people drink wine? And what makes it different from other drinks? To help digesting? To have courage to do things? To feel cheerful and mery? If so, the one who drinks it lacks something in his/her life and finds in wine a surogate. But one day or another, it will be the cause of his/her destruction. Better face my destiny and manage my life without the help of stimulant than to find myself addicted due to a mistake of overdosage.

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You forgot one thing: People could just like to drink wine. Some sorts of wine taste really good. (Not that I know that much about wine ... I'm just collecting (full) bottles. ;) )

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Originally Posted by Johnny Odd

I have my own little idealism that I live by - Do what you want to do, as long as, in doing this, you do not offend or hurt or expect others to do the same as you. This has served me well over the years, I do not follow any other eligion than this.
I have recently moved house and my new neighbours are two american christian faith workers... they travel to schools and churches to spread their love of Jesus. When I moved in they asked me to come and party with them. That was how they phrased it "Come party with us!!". So I turned up, when they said with a small bottle of vodka and a bottle of coke.
They were actually disgusted with the fact that I had brought alcohol to their place with the intension of getting a bit drunk.
I understand that it was THEIR house and I respect that they are (as I now know) not drinkers of alcohol - but as they threw me out the door I couldn't help but think, 'You could have simply not drank it!!'

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The was a woman by the name of Carrie A. Nation who worked very hard in the movement to ban the sale of alcholic beverages in the U.S.A. In those days, around the late 1800's to early 1900's you would hear the phrase "demon rum." The movent to ban alcohol was called The Temperance Movement. I had a hard time remembering the term "temperance". I had to google for it. All I could think of was prohibition, abolition, and suffrage. The prohibition laws were eventually passed. This made possible the world which F. Scott Fitzgerald made famous in "The Great Gatsby".



There are Christian groups who literally believe that a devil is present in the alcohol. Perhaps this is part of the reason why you were "thrown out."

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Originally Posted by Johnny Odd

I have my own little idealism that I live by - Do what you want to do, as long as, in doing this, you do not offend or hurt or expect others to do the same as you. This has served me well over the years, I do not follow any other eligion than this.
I have recently moved house and my new neighbours are two american christian faith workers... they travel to schools and churches to spread their love of Jesus. When I moved in they asked me to come and party with them. That was how they phrased it "Come party with us!!". So I turned up, when they said with a small bottle of vodka and a bottle of coke.
They were actually disgusted with the fact that I had brought alcohol to their place with the intension of getting a bit drunk.
I understand that it was THEIR house and I respect that they are (as I now know) not drinkers of alcohol - but as they threw me out the door I couldn't help but think, 'You could have simply not drank it!!'

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The only thing I find odd Johnny is in your own little idealism you think it possible to do SOMETHING you want without offending someone?I think your offended American,Christian ,neighbors bear this out.But I do agree with your assumption,and think they should have ask you to join them in a game of trivial pursuit (the bible edition,) instead of "come party with us."
OR if these Americans are from the United States they may have been upset because you didn't show up with a bag of weed,a little coke,and a hot chic to swap?Ya just never know!

WEll I did consider that, but I decided against taking copious amounts of hard drugs and loose girls over to my new neighbours!!
You see, okmit, the point about my idealism failing - this is where it demands a little amount of co-operation - the whole idea is based around respect, if I KNOW something will or would upset you I would certainly refrain from doing it and would expect the same treatment from you - if you knew your actions would offend or bother me (not that much really does) then you would try not to do so, right?
I did not realise my neighbours' objection to alcohol, but they should have realised that them physically ejecting me would offend and simply have said something - I would have instantly took the drink back to mine and appologised for misinterpreting the situation. It's simple: respect people and be respected.

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Originally Posted by Johnny Odd

WEll I did consider that, but I decided against taking copious amounts of hard drugs and loose girls over to my new neighbours!!
You see, okmit, the point about my idealism failing - this is where it demands a little amount of co-operation - the whole idea is based around respect, if I KNOW something will or would upset you I would certainly refrain from doing it and would expect the same treatment from you - if you knew your actions would offend or bother me (not that much really does) then you would try not to do so, right?
I did not realise my neighbours' objection to alcohol, but they should have realised that them physically ejecting me would offend and simply have said something - I would have instantly took the drink back to mine and appologised for misinterpreting the situation. It's simple: respect people and be respected.

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I was jesting about the drugs & such,and your conduct was much more in keeping with christian teachings than was your Christian neighbors.But tell me,how much respect do you now have for your illmannered neighbors that threw you out on your ear ,and how much do you think they have for you?
Giving or recieving respect is not simple and is the shortfall of all idealism.
I tell you,people are the most damnable creatures!

Tell me about it, we'd be much better off without them

Regarding the term new wine, I always think it refers to something immaterial..like something that will refresh the spirit, the soul, strengthen the faith. Because there's this song I once heard which says (more or less, cause the song is in my language): new wine will be given, filled his people with joy, so true is his power.." I almost forgot the verse, since I heard that when I was still in juniour high.

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Originally Posted by Sitaram

There is a verse in the New Testament, in the Epistle of Timothy, which says " a LITTLE wine is good for the health." Theologians often point to this and emphasize that the verse recommends moderation rather than drinking a whole lot. Many Protestant groups believe very strongly that any alcohol is bad. One new minister to a certain church gave a sermon about the very first miracle which Jesus is said to have worked, at the marriage in Cana, changing water to wine. The parishoners became furious because the minister mentioned alcoholic beverage. There are Christian denominations which insist that Jesus used grape juice for the Eucharist at the Last Supper, and that "new wine" refers to grape juice. But this is obviously inaccurate, since in the Book of Acts, at Pentecost, it mentions that everyone thought the Apostles drunk with new wine.

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Originally Posted by subterranean

Regarding the term new wine, I always think it refers to something immaterial..like something that will refresh the spirit, the soul, strengthen the faith. Because there's this song I once heard which says (more or less, cause the song is in my language): new wine will be given, filled his people with joy, so true is his power.." I almost forgot the verse, since I heard that when I was still in juniour high.

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Lack of sterilisation techniques exposed wine to wild yeast and turned it to vinegar.
The lesson of not useing a new skin for new wine was not that the skin(usualy a goat stomach)would burst,but that it would certainly contaminate the "new wine."

Thank you for the information :)

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Originally Posted by subterranean

Thank you for the information :)

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Cheers,my friend.

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Originally Posted by Sitaram

The was a woman by the name of Carrie A. Nation who worked very hard in the movement to ban the sale of alcholic beverages in the U.S.A.

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Ah, yes, I wondered when we'd get around to dear old "Hatchet Carrie". That was her nickname, you know, because she was so rabidly against the "demon rum" that she and her followers actually carried hatchets to destroy bars! You know what eventually stopped her? The bartenders got together, read the Bible, found scriptures like this one "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto to those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." PROVERBS 31:6-7, and posted them in large print in their saloons. Since Carrie couldn't deny that that WAS in the Bible, she had to back down. I still stand on moderation in everything, however. And I think Johnny Odd, that you were treated unfairly. I would have simply told you, "Sorry, but we don't drink here. Come on in and sit down and let's get to know each other." No call to "throw you out." How un-Christlike can you get?

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

Ah, yes, I wondered when we'd get around to dear old "Hatchet Carrie". That was her nickname, you know, because she was so rabidly against the "demon rum" that she and her followers actually carried hatchets to destroy bars! You know what eventually stopped her? The bartenders got together, read the Bible, found scriptures like this one "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto to those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." PROVERBS 31:6-7, and posted them in large print in their saloons. Since Carrie couldn't deny that that WAS in the Bible, she had to back down. I still stand on moderation in everything, however. And I think Johnny Odd, that you were treated unfairly. I would have simply told you, "Sorry, but we don't drink here. Come on in and sit down and let's get to know each other." No call to "throw you out." How un-Christlike can you get?

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Socrates basically said it all, in Plato's dialogues, when he said (repeatedly) that "eveyone by nature desires the good." Carrie Nation desired the good. The bartenders desired the good. The alcoholics desired the good. Hitler and Mother Theresa both desired the good. Even those Christians that tossed you out THOUGHT that it was good, desired the good. For no one wittingly, consicously says, "this is not so good, but I desire it anyway." We always somehow see what we chose as the good, at least at the moment we are choosing it.

I am grateful for that interesting verse from Proverbs, and the historical aside about the bartenders use of a Biblical verse.

The Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition holds that, around the 8th or 9th century, the people of Russia sent emissaries to find the best religion. Legend has it that they entered Saint Sophias in Constantinople, and were awestruck, and chose Orthodoxy, and Sts. Cyrl and Methodius travelled to Russia to baptize the nation.

But someone else observed to me that the Buddhists and Muslims both forbade alcohol, but the Orthodox of Byzantium permitted alcohol, and this was the basis for the decision of the Slavic people to choose Orthodoxy.