How I know what you mean. One thread was closed with the final comments (other than the moderator's notice of lock-up) being anti-Jewish comments I could easily have shown up for what they were.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufioag
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How I know what you mean. One thread was closed with the final comments (other than the moderator's notice of lock-up) being anti-Jewish comments I could easily have shown up for what they were.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufioag
Islam is at complete odds with Judeo-Christian Religion on the matters of GOD and satan. Your views about islam add nothing to a literary discussion of defining satan. You have no basis for saying that Christianity has changed, nor, then, for differing with the Gospel, while simultaneously saying the quran praises it. Whatever Christian Teaching says of satan, you can either agree with it as being the truth, or you leave yourself with a self-contradiction, in which you say your own written authority backs up thr basis for Christian Teaching, and yet, by the islamic dogma, you despise all the Teaching of the Gospel the quran says to trust.Quote:
Originally Posted by berna
Now here is the literary crunch:
Muhammad said there was still a Torah and a Gospel in his time that was divinely inspired, and he said that if a muslim was in doubt about quranic teachings, the Peoples of these Books were to be consulted. If one looks at all of the manuscripts for the "New Testament", one finds that most of the mss. consulted for producing Bible editions today are from before Muhammad's time, so that they are the basis for what he admitted were reliable! That the quran sinks its own mission by making statements such as above about Books Muahammad had not read, while building up the case for the Torah and Gospel, whether it itself sinks or swims, is due to no fault of the Peoples of the Torah and the Gospel, whose existence didn't change the moment another religion presumed to eclipse their history.
Thus, all talk about who or what satan is without consulting Jewish and Christian Traditions, is like starting in the Americas to do an archaeological dig in Rome.
Let me disagree here, Mil. Jesus once said to the Jews that by their traditions they were making The Word of God of no effect. The answer does not lie in the traditions of ANY religion, but in God's Word. Satan is the Adversary, the Father of Lies, Evil Incarnate, The Enemy of Our Souls, the Ruler of Hell, Lucifer, and a host of other names and things found in scripture. Tradition has nothing to do with it. Someone once said "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing people he doesn't exist." So, so true. God bless. :angel:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mililalil XXIV
Mililalil XXIV where is your proof from Holy Quran and Sayings of prophet about this statment: Muhammad said there was still a Torah and a Gospel in his time that was divinely inspired.
Once my friend recieved a book from Jehovah people, they were using verses from Holy Quran to force thier statments and they were explaining verses in so bad way without knowing any thing and by cutting verses from Holy Quran.
They said for example about surah 16 verse 43 they said that we muslims must ask christians or jews. (mean ask the pope? or priests? or shnoda (priests of egyption church)? )
In Holy Quran explination of this verse scholars said that AHL ATHEKR are the musims scholars, and people from jews and christians who became muslims, because they know that a prophet will come. Even at that time Jews were saying always to Muslims we will kill you when our prophet will come, they were waiting for a prophet and they thought he will be Jews, but when he came arabic they were so jelous and didnt accept him, read surah 2 verse 146 "The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."
When a man at time of prophet Muhammed pbuh called Abd Allah bin salam (he was jews) became muslim he said to prophet Muhammed pbuh go to jews and ask them what they think about me, he went pbuh and asked them they said our leader and with big knowledge (trying to translate), then Abd Allah came and showed he became muslim, they said he is the most stupid one. Then Abd Allah said that he know Prophet pbuh more than he know his sons, others said how come? he said i dont know if my sons came from me or another person, but i am sure that Muhammed pbuh is prophet.
See Mil we ask these people, we dont ask people who add and cancel or say God drink, sleep or any other thing. Jews still waiting for a prophet untle these days.
There is another verse about muslims being in doubt. Its Surah 10 verse 94 "If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt."
When people explain this verse arriving to conclusion that non muslims do alway show that they dont know arabic and modes of speach and alot of other things. This verse doesnt mean that we go to pope in his church and ask him: oh pope i doubt me religioun islam, is Muhammed a prophet?
When this verse came prophet Muhammed pbuh said i dont doubt and i dont ask. This verse talk to disbelievers who doesnt know if Muhammed is a prophet and has doubt , because arabs admits that jews know more than them, so they can ask Jews who became muslims like Abd Allah bin Salam about prophet and if he is the the one who will come (Surah 7 verse 157).
In arabs talking there are sayings like when a father say to his son: if you are my son then treat me good. This way of talking doesnt mean that the father doubt that the person is his son, Its a condition (IF) in arabic that WONT HAPPEN, its arabic language not language of poeple who explain Holy Quran without knowing any thing. Mean that prophet Wont have doubt and wont ask, but its massege to non believers to ask jews who became muslims, not to ask protestant or catholic or any other sect.
Holy Quran doesnt sink it self, it sink all other book, showed the true image about prophets, and praised God as should, no other book praise Gos as Holy Quran, and showed every matter in life from waiking up morning untle sleeping, from coming to life untle death, no doubt left for people.
About manuscripts of bible. Mil, Apocrypha exist before Muhammed pbuh, do you believe in it? do you believe in orthodox bible which contain 151 psalms? Do you believe in KJV which contain the complete john1 5:7 or now adays books?
Old manuscripts are alot but there is no manuscript equal to other. In NIV the saying of Jesus in Luke 23:34 the famous word said by him in crucifiction, its written that there are scriptures dont contain this verse.
read acts 8:37 vanished from NIV.
there is nothing in Holy Quran that confirm sayings of bible today and some people try with effort to show that Holy Quran talk about nowadays bible and trinity (that even bible doesnt talk about), but NO RESULT.
Perhaps we went out of subject a little bit but cant leave such sayings about Holy Quran pass.
Wise words :)Quote:
Originally Posted by miss tenderness
I am presuming that you are referring to the geneologies of Jesus as found in the gospels. The geneology in Matthew is the geneology of Mary, however Joseph's name included as being her husband, probably because men were more important than women in that day. (Matthew 1:18)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shield&Sword
The geneology in Luke is the geneology of Joseph. In Luke 3:23 it clearly states that Jesus was thought to be the son of Joseph. Of course Joseph wasn't his real father but an earthly father who raised Jesus.
Including the names of ungodly women shows that God uses all sort of people. Ungodly men are included because the geneology wouldn't be complete without them. According to the Word of God, "all have sinned"(Romans 3:23) and "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12)
Helen Bond says:
"...we hear nothing at all of a virgin birth tradition, until late in the first century. Only the gospels of Matthew and Luke, which were probably written in the 80's or 90's of the first century, is there a mention of the virgin birth.
Another difficulty with the virgin birth idea is that the texts in Matthew and Luke are clearly overlaid with references to the Old Testament. They're evocative of the typical Old Testament annunciation narrative; the angel going down to one or two of the parents; the insurmountable problem, which usually in the Old Testament is the fact that the parents are elderly or barren, and then the angel says the problem is going to be surmounted and the birth ensues. It's very similar to the stories about the birth of Isaac or the birth of Samson or Samuel. Matthew and Luke are indebted to the Old Testament and they're drawing on these Old Testament ideas. The story of the birth of Jesus has to be even better so Mary can't be an elderly barren woman but instead she's a young girl who's also a virgin. They draw not so much on recollection from Mary herself but on Old Testament narratives."
It's 'genealogy' by the way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rufioag
What is this Ubai???
What is the Uthman prob?
Give me one abrogated verse,just one plz???
Rufio, excuse me for saying so, but I really laughed at this point. Why? Let ask you 1st ,did you read just these two Verses out of their context? Because the meaning here is not what you guessed. Now there is NO muslim who believes that Allah has a daughter,infact this is the exact opposite of what Muslims believe. We believe that Allah is One , Allah is not born and has no sons or daughters. This is the core of Islam. Now if Muslims believe so, how can they creat such a verse that you above claimed to be added by Muslims!!
This is a true verse said by Allah the Almighty . Allah, swt, in this verse refers to Allat,Uzaa and Manat(those idoles were worshiped by the people befor Islam)in a sarcastic way ,meaning how can you( sarcasly addressing those non Muslims who associated these name to Allah, as His daughters-again those idols worshippers are not Muslims ,but they are the people who still worship idols ) worship such things that can not benefit you or even respond to you !and the verse that comes after says that you have claimed those daughters to Allah ,swt. And then the verse that comes after says that those names (Latta, Uzza and Manatta) are mainly names that you (worshippers of idols) and your ancestors created, but Allah never approves of them, you just follow your whim, and Allah has given you the truth, that is the Quran.
As you can see above this verse can not be said by Muslims. You misunderstood the verse. Those words are Allah's words correcting the false conviction of people who said that idols are our Gods and they are Allah's daughters.
Now refio if you just go back to the whole surah and context you will understand the meaning well.
Allah, swt, addresses the worshippers of these idols (who associated these name to Allah, as His daughters-again those idols worshippers are not Muslims, but they are the people who still worship idols)
You are right that the quran contradicts the Teachings of the Books it says to trust. Muhammad seemed to feel confident enough about saying Books he never read said things the quran said. Many pseudo-charismatics today make these sorts of blunders, believing that random thoughts they think are prophecy, and presuming these "prophecies" are so reliable that if they challenge others to investigate their claims, everything will confirm them. Muhammad claimed he was mentioned in the Scriptures, and cursed Jews for truthfully denying this silly, uneducated idea. Fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shield&Sword
In a modern book called "Conversations With Nostradamus", the author claimed that Nostradamus' spirit desribed his home in a certain manner. Everyone that has visited that heritage house has seen how fictitious the details of the author's psychic details are.
S.[5:46-49]
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus son of Mary, confirming the Torah before him; and We gave to him the Gospel, wherein is guidance and light, and confirming the Torah before it, as a guidance and an admonition unto the godfearing. So let the People of the Gospel judge according to what God has sent down therein. Whosoever judges not according to what God has sent down -- they are the ungodly. And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee.
This distinguishes the Torah and Gospel from the quran. If the quran were merely the same as them, why distinguish them as three existing scriptural entities? They are not said in the quran to no longer exist. What do you base your obscuring of the Torah and Gospel upon?
This verse no one can understand it talk about bibles that exist at time of Muhammed pbuh.
"So let the People of the Gospel judge" the verb judge in arabic is وَلْيَحْكُمْ. In arabic reading this verb we understand that it was talking about the reason for what Allah gave Jesus pbuh the Gospel. Thats mean that all the talk is about time of Jesus pbuh, mean that: we gave Jesus pbuh the gospel so the people (in that time, time of Jesus pbuh) judge according the book. It doesnt talk about time of prophet Muhammed pbuh, return to explination next time.
After Allah talked about time of Jesus pbuh he said in verse 48 to prophet Muhammed pbuh to judge with what Allah sent to him which is Holy Quran.
Holy Quran assure the books before it because all are from Allah. its a massage to christians and jews to believe in Holy Quran because it came from Allah who sent gospel and turah, and have the same idea that gospel of Jesus pbuh and turah of Moses pbuh had, didnt talk about gospel of Mathew or Luke or massesges of Paul and dream of John, these all were written after Jesus pbuh he even didnt see these books, and Holy Quran say so clear WE GAVE JESUS THE GOSPEL.
Beside gospel of Luke was accepted at years 300 nearlly, at Nicea council, and was refused at first but then confirmed.
The Gospel of Jesus changed some of turah teachings, so Allah talked about taking the Gospel to judge between people at that time.
Then after changing them, the Holy Quran came to affirm the real gospel and turah and to take the Holy Quran as judge, BECAUSE THEY DONT EXIST ANY MORE. They were for a specific period. Turah was for specific period then came Gospel for a specific period, adn then came Holy Quran the last book for all humanity. Hope idea is clear
The story about Nostradamus is good, you can use it to talk with Orthodox who write 151 psalms, and to catholic who write apocrypha and Daniel 13, 14, and prtoestant who deny all that.
Yes Muhammed feel enough confidence about these books that he never read and knew they are changed by people, he for sure was inspired from Allah. Beside if you read Holy Quran you will find no bad talk about the true gospel and turah, and about prophets peace be upon them and specially about the almighty Allah. It gave every thing its proper image. No other book talk in such way.
He said he was inspired while giving innacurate descriptions of things he was unfamiliar with. Was there no Scripture between the generation of JESUS and the writing of the quran? When was the falsely alleged corruption of all Scripture supposed to have occurred? If it could happen, allegedly, right after publication by JESUS Disciples, an altogether false oracle could be made and well kept. The argument you give for the quran is very weak: for if its preservation makes it true, and the present Bible is alleged to be a counterfeit for some anachronistically superimposed earlier quran you regard as alone being the Gospel, then why is the Bible so well preserved - much longer than the quran - and the alleged twin of the quran you say was the Gospel totally obliterated from existence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shield&Sword
Muhammad did not merely tell the Jews that he had been in once existant Scriptures, but presumed that they could not help but know him to be mentioned in the Scriptures they still possessed and knew well!
Ok you said explination is weak.
Which bible was at time of Muhammed: protestant or catholic or orthodox bible?
Then was bible according CEV or NIV or KJV.
Just give one of these. And tell why, and how they knew.
Beside what you say about the refutation of Luke gospel and the acceptence at 300's (300 years after Jesus pbuh birth) in nicea.
The verse was as i explained if its weak its your opinion, if you know arabic and read Holy Quran you wont say this thing. I pasted the word Judge in arabic because the first letter is ل and its not part of word judge in arabic it means SO ( لكي ) and it came to explain why Allah gave Jesus pbuh the bible, it was talking about that time, then after Allah finished talking about time of Jesus or lets say the time in which bible was not corrupted and was right to use, in verse 48 the speach came to time of Muhammed pbuh and Allah said to judge with Holy Quran. The verse is so clear and reading all verses will come with this result, when you cut and paste and refuse grammer it will have your explination.
Not important when corruption accured, because the question more important is: Has bible been corrupted.
I think we are changing the idea of this thread, Admins will be angry. Lets try to go back to the thread.
Thank you, Shield&Sword. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shield&Sword
Good old Louvin Brothers.
"See? He's real! He's standing right there!"