Evolution vs. Creation

I am entitled to my opinion, and I dont appreciate the vulgarity of stanislaws remarks, nor the blatent disregard for like responses to outlandish claims made by IDers. If they can flaunt science, why am i restrained (censored)for responsibly replying to this inadequacy? My aim here is not to insult anyone, but to push the envelope on some of these creationists who abuse thier rights of free speech and seek to punish those who do not fully echo thier sentiments. Hmm?
If you can be more specific as to what exactly it is that you dont want me to say, I will either oblige you, or no longer participate on this thread, should I feel that my free speech is being denied as a result of the camp which I choose to occupy. :brow:

To my limited knowledge, David Hume defeated the argument from design in his work, Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion. Hume uses the problem of evil as the main discrepancy that rules out the logical possibility of an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent (the three teleological characteristics of God in the monotheistic religions) being as creator of the universe.

Some major points include:
Evil manifests itself in the struggle between creatures for survival. Prey live in constant threat and vulnerability to predators and likewise predators continually hunt for the flesh of other beasts to feast on. The cycle of conflict in nature; the conquering of the strong over the weak, exemplifies evil’s presence where relentless domination and submission of lives is merely a means of living.

Humankind is susceptible to violent tendencies which are made known in war, the oppression of peoples, criminal activities, and numerous other acts in which they harm each other. Human wickedness is an aspect of life to which no person is escapable and everyone experiences throughout their lifespan.

Everyman Indeed!
I applaud thee.
My work is done here. :banana:

"Hume uses the problem of evil as the main discrepancy that rules out the logical possibility of an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent ... being as creator of the universe"

This problem does not, of course, rule out dualistic views, such as the Zoroastrian view that the world is created by the Wise Lord in order to provide an arena for the cosmic conflict between good and evil.

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Well, I certainly didn't "run and hide". It simply became obvious that people were not interested in my views, and I do not believe in trying to cram anything I believe down someone else's throat. Too much of that goes on now, to the deteriment of various causes. If you believe the Earth was made by Puff the Magic Dragon, and you'll stand on that unwavering, I have respect for that. To stand for what one believes against all odds gains my respect every time. I have more respect for an Atheist who is firm in his/her belief than a wishy-washy religous person, who is in today and out tomorrow. God bless. :nod:

<If you believe the Earth was made by Puff the Magic Dragon, and you'll stand on that unwavering, have respect for that.>

Why? Surely your respect for someone who believes the above is detrimental to that person. It also demeans the value of your respect.

I'd say that anyone who would <believe the Earth was made by Puff the Magic Dragon, and you'll stand on that unwavering>, needs to see a doctor, preferably a specialist in mental health problems.

The problem with believing nonsense, whether it be puff the magic dragon as creator, or vrigin births or assumption in to heaven or human-like lizards ruling the earth or anything that is irrational and non-sensible is that if you wish to appear reasonable and if you wish others to respect your nonsensical beliefs, you have to allow all nonsense equal respect.

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Originally Posted by Whifflingpin

"Hume uses the problem of evil as the main discrepancy that rules out the logical possibility of an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent ... being as creator of the universe"

This problem does not, of course, rule out dualistic views, such as the Zoroastrian view that the world is created by the Wise Lord in order to provide an arena for the cosmic conflict between good and evil.

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Zoroastrianism is not a dualistic religion, it is infact quite monotheisitic. According to zoroastrian beliefs at the end of time all those who are evil will be cleansed and reunited with those who were righteous.

As for calling a virgin birth, or assumption nonsense is incredibly disrespectfull to people who believe in the christian tradition.

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Originally Posted by Whifflingpin

This problem does not, of course, rule out dualistic views, such as the Zoroastrian view that the world is created by the Wise Lord in order to provide an arena for the cosmic conflict between good and evil.

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In citing Hume, I am referring to a philosophical argument, which is grounded in logic and reason rather than faith or belief. Relating to Zoroastrianism is thus an attempt to bring the debate back into the realm of religion, to which we can then discuss other beliefs, but would obviously stray from the topic at hand. Furthermore, this thread involves discussing creationism, which is generally held as a Christian idea and movement that attempts to merge religious belief with scientific fact. The Zoroastrian story of creation (that I am not familiar with) is an individually distinct belief that is separate from creationism.

From Stanislav
"Zoroastrianism is not a dualistic religion, it is infact quite monotheisitic. According to zoroastrian beliefs at the end of time all those who are evil will be cleansed and reunited with those who were righteous."
I think that among Zoroastrians there are those who believe in "cosmic" dualism, namely that Ahura Mazda and Ahriman are good and evil powers in a sphere that is outside the created universe. There are also those who believe in "ethical dualism," that is to say, good and evil are in conflict only within the created universe, or more particularly within mankind - I think that this is the predominant view among the Parsees who may be the largest grouping of Zoroastrians at the present time.
I don't think there is a definitive Zoroastrian belief about the ultimate fate of evil people. Of course, the religion is one of the oldest, and has undergone many changes and reactions in its history.

Everyman - I understood (or misunderstood) your citing of Hume as a philosophical argument to nullify a certain religious belief. I merely showed that it was not an argument that could be used to nullify all beliefs in a Creator. The title of the thread, the first post and the poll do not limit the discussion merely to views that can be refuted by Hume.

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Originally Posted by Whifflingpin

I understood (or misunderstood) your citing of Hume as a philosophical argument to nullify a certain religious belief. I merely showed that it was not an argument that could be used to nullify all beliefs in a Creator. The title of the thread, the first post and the poll do not limit the discussion merely to views that can be refuted by Hume.

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My argument, as you have already noted, was stated only in relation to creationism. The contention that I was attempting to "limit the discussion merely to views that can be refuted by Hume" is unfounded.

Stanislaw said: <As for calling a virgin birth, or assumption nonsense is incredibly disrespectfull to people who believe in the christian tradition.>

I disagree. I am attacking a belief, not a person. The only way I can see that anyone can feel that I am attacking them in those statements, would be if they overidentified with their beliefs. There is a great danger in silencing criticism of a belief or a system, merely because it offends those who cannot separate their self-identity from their beliefs.

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Originally Posted by atiguhya padma

<If you believe the Earth was made by Puff the Magic Dragon, and you'll stand on that unwavering, have respect for that.>

Why? Surely your respect for someone who believes the above is detrimental to that person. It also demeans the value of your respect.

I'd say that anyone who would <believe the Earth was made by Puff the Magic Dragon, and you'll stand on that unwavering>, needs to see a doctor, preferably a specialist in mental health problems.

The problem with believing nonsense, whether it be puff the magic dragon as creator, or vrigin births or assumption in to heaven or human-like lizards ruling the earth or anything that is irrational and non-sensible is that if you wish to appear reasonable and if you wish others to respect your nonsensical beliefs, you have to allow all nonsense equal respect.

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

Well, I certainly didn't "run and hide". It simply became obvious that people were not interested in my views, and I do not believe in trying to cram anything I believe down someone else's throat. Too much of that goes on now, to the deteriment of various causes. If you believe the Earth was made by Puff the Magic Dragon, and you'll stand on that unwavering, I have respect for that. To stand for what one believes against all odds gains my respect every time. I have more respect for an Atheist who is firm in his/her belief than a wishy-washy religous person, who is in today and out tomorrow.

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As usual, you jump right to something to argue about and ignore the gist of the point. Did you read the last line? That means that I respect YOU for sticking to what YOU believe. Do you see any remarks about nonsense? No. How I feel about what YOU believe is unimportant. For the record, I disagree with some, not all, of evolution. My stance on these things is on record in this thread. But I will not demean a fellow human by questioning their intelligence for what they believe. Is the Puff the Magic Dragon example so much different from the Earth is on the back of a turtle, or the shoulders of Atlas, or that mankind crawled out of a hole in the ground? People devoutly believed these things. :nod:

Good God!!

dude.....i think u are losing me in that subject..!

i know that God created Adam first... then Eve,.....then he sent them down earth ... etc...

Interesting.
How do you know?
Were you present?

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Originally Posted by falling*moon

Good God!!

dude.....i think u are losing me in that subject..!

i know that God created Adam first... then Eve,.....then he sent them down earth ... etc...

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Sorry for confusing you. Everything in my post about Puff. etc. is metaphorical. Since you obviously came in late, once more, I belive in a Creator to start things, then evolution as in adaptation of each species to changes in their environment. Without these changes, evreything would have died out long ago. Of course, some things survived without changing, exceptions to the rule. Which is why I said I disagreed with some, not all, of evolution. Follow me now? I was just pointing out that I have respect for anyone who will stand up for what they believe and be unwavering in that belief, not this way today and that tomorrow. Believe what you will, but have the grace to stick to it and respect the others who stick to theirs. To them, what YOU believe may not sound with the ring of truth, just as YOU find cracks in their belief. Mutual respect can find something to talk about that both can contribute to. :nod: