PoemoftheWeek

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Originally Posted by ktd222

Does Frost disprove of the Wall?

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“Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,”

Could this cold something be 'frost' (as in Robert) by any chance or is this just a coincidence?

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Originally Posted by The Unnamable

“Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,”

Could this cold something be 'frost' (as in Robert) by any chance or is this just a coincidence?

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hehe, and if it is Frost, he would be something there that does not love a wall. :lol:

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Originally Posted by jackyyyy

He writes, 'Good fences make good neighbours', indicating a wall may be a good thing. Therefore, a wall may be needed. I say, yes, they can still be neighbours, but, without a 'good' wall, they may not be good neighbours. I am keying on the word 'Good' here, because he is making the point.. there are good, bad, useless, pointless, whatever type of wall.

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Then I would ask what is it that the wall is walling off? Look at these snippets.

Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offense

There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.

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Originally Posted by The Unnamable

“Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,”

Could this cold something be 'frost' (as in Robert) by any chance or is this just a coincidence?

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I have no idea.

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hehe, and if it is Frost, he would be something there that does not love a wall.

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I don't think Frost would like to be referred to as a 'something.'

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Originally Posted by ktd222

Then I would ask what is it that the wall is walling off? Look at these snippets.

Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offense

There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.

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Apart other things, neighbours. Any host of reasons. He is asking, however, 'what is the point of a wall'. In the first case, he would ask so he knows its reason, and in the second case, there is a natural division (type of tree), which would make a physical wall pointless. The 'he' keeps coming back and saying, 'Good walls make good neighbours'. So, I imply, its a people thing only because nature does not need walls.

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Originally Posted by jackyyyy

Apart other things, neighbours. Any host of reasons. He is asking, however, 'what is the point of a wall'. In the first case, he would ask so he knows its reason, and in the second case, there is a natural division (type of tree), which would make a physical wall pointless. The 'he' keeps coming back and saying, 'Good walls make good neighbours'. So, I imply, its a people thing only because nature does not need walls.

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Ya, it comes back to a people thing, a nature thing, a people and nature thing.

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Originally Posted by ktd222

Thanks, my second word choice was 'thingamajig'.

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We use that in engineering too. :D

Try these – they are .pdf files from a site for English teachers.

http://www.teachit.co.uk/pdf/4645.pdf

http://www.teachit.co.uk/pdf/4713.pdf

There is an interesting set of articles here;

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poe...frost/wall.htm

In particular, I found the Lawrence Raab essay worth a go, although I can find no reliable evidence that Kennedy did quote the first line at the Berlin Wall. The Raab article begins:

“Robert Frost once said that "Mending Wall" was a poem that was spoiled by being applied.

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Originally Posted by The Unnamable

“Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,”

Could this cold something be 'frost' (as in Robert) by any chance or is this just a coincidence?

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Just a side note. I don't think frost by itself would cause damage to a wall, but the cycling of freezing and unfreezing of both the ground and whatever mosture got into crevices of the wall could and does. It is a thought, though.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Just a side note. I don't think frost by itself would cause damage to a wall, but the cycling of freezing and unfreezing of both the ground and whatever mosture got into crevices of the wall could and does. It is a thought, though.

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I know that Virgil but do you really think Robert Frost didn’t think of frost when he wrote those lines? Come on!

In his famous 1963 speech, President Kennedy professed solidarity with the people of Berlin by declaring, "Ich bin ein Berliner." Unfortunately he was not only saying "I am a Berliner," he was also saying "I am a jelly doughnut" -- "ein Berliner" being a popular local pastry.

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Originally Posted by The Unnamable

I know that Virgil but do you really think Robert Frost didn’t think of frost when he wrote those lines? Come on!

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It could, but I don't think it's definitive. When I think of shifting ground and cracked foundations and crooked walls, I don't think of frost. I think of frozen ground, that is frozen earth to a certain depth that can be quite powerful. And look at the lines that follow:

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Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.

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I think it's describing what I'm saying, not some frozen suface moisture. Perhaps he's punning on his name, but I don't see it. I'm willing to accept it if you point it out. I'm not sure it makes a difference one way or the other to the poem. What's the significance?

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Originally Posted by The Unnamable

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/poe...frost/wall.htm

In particular, I found the Lawrence Raab essay worth a go, although I can find no reliable evidence that Kennedy did quote the first line at the Berlin Wall. The Raab article begins:

“Robert Frost once said that "Mending Wall" was a poem that was spoiled by being applied.

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This is good stuff. The article is not at odds with what I've been saying. I sensed the wall's literal and figurative connotations to the 'relationships' being expressed in the poem, but I have not fully defined those relationships yet. I fear that after reading this article my ethusiasm for analyzing this poem has deflated. I guess we'll see...

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Originally Posted by “Virgil”

It could, but I don't think it's definitive. When I think of shifting ground and cracked foundations and crooked walls, I don't think of frost. I think of frozen ground, that is frozen earth to a certain depth that can be quite powerful.

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Okay, I concede that, in the strictest sense possible, one of America’s most revered poets should have been called Robert Frozen but it’s close enough to be obvious to me and many others. He was a poet – do you think he wouldn’t have thought of possible puns? Donne did it and Frost does it elsewhere in this very poem.

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Originally Posted by “Virgil”

What's the significance?

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Okay, I’ll try. First of all, the significance is that he implies that he is one of those things ‘that doesn't love a wall”. Secondly, the whole poem is filled with a similar playfulness.

“We have to use a spell to make them balance:” – humorous (they don’t really)

“My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.” - funny – not gut-bustingly so but amusing nonetheless.

“Spring is the mischief in me” - The spring air makes him feel mischievous and he tries to make his neighbour question the proverb that sounds so wise on the surface.

“And to whom I was like to give offense.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.' I could say 'Elves' to him,”

offense – ‘a fence’! A pun if ever I saw one. He could tell the neighbour that elves are causing it?!

The speaker knows that his neighbour will never understand his feelings. The man is too deeply locked into tradition to be able to question whatever is customarily done. He points out, ironically, that his neighbour “likes having thought of it so well / He says again, 'Good fences make good neighbors.'" Isn’t it obvious that the neighbour hasn’t thought about it deeply at all?

Virgil, you do realise that this poem is about me and you, don’t you? :D

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Originally Posted by The Unnamable

Okay, I concede that, in the strictest sense possible, one of America’s most revered poets should have been called Robert Frozen but it’s close enough to be obvious to me and many others. He was a poet – do you think he wouldn’t have thought of possible puns? Donne did it and Frost does it elsewhere in this very poem.

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No I agree it must have crossed his mind. Let me somewhat concede and say it's a loose fit. I can go with it, but not without a qualm.

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Okay, I’ll try. First of all, the significance is that he implies that he is one of those things ‘that doesn't love a wall”. Secondly, the whole poem is filled with a similar playfulness.

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Ok. perhaps I was getting too scientific about it. He is having fun in the poem, especially where he decides to egg his neighbor on.

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Virgil, you do realise that this poem is about me and you, don’t you? :D

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:lol: Well, I prefer to think we just disagree but can be friends.