PoemoftheWeek

Thanks Sher, I don't think we've discussed Frost on this thread before, or at least not since I've been around, and I love his poetry. I first read this poem as a child, and I've always liked it. It's one of those I've read every now and again many times over the years since I first came across it in school. What I like about it, and about Frost's poetry in general is the rich simplicity of it. The first line (later repeated) "something there is, that doesn't love a wall" is built around the indeterminacy of what that "something" is, and yet throughout the poem the reader has the feeling that he/she knows exactly what is being referred to in that "something." In those first few lines I always have a vivid image of the earth actively swelling beneath the wall, of the earth breathing deeply to crack the strange constraints placed upon it. Anyway, I'll make some more comments when I have the time. This should be an interesting poem to discuss.

I think there is a dynamic being set up between the land and man-made things(the wall), the land and man, man and man, man and land, all being constrained, yet all(man,land,man) held together literally and symbolically by this Wall. I don't think it is as easy as the man-made wall is whats keeping the land from being in a fluid state with man. But that is(and this seems weird) the land's POV.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.

And yet there is this totally different relationship being addressed:
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
He only says, 'Good fences make good neighbors.'

And the relationship between man and nature:
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offense.

I am back and forthe with this because of sentences like the following:

And to whom I was like to give offense.

Just as I feel I have it in my grasp, he goes and does it again...

And some are loaves and some so nearly balls

and again!

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.

Me thinks he is playing wid me brain. He definitely has a 'voice', just not sure what kind of voice it is. Its fascinating what he did; took the concept of a wall and wrote all around it, under it, above it, and inside it. I cannot commit a notion to it yet, except to give it the safe 10, and for making me look at so many times. :nod:

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

The first line (later repeated) "something there is, that doesn't love a wall" is built around the indeterminacy of what that "something" is, and yet throughout the poem the reader has the feeling that he/she knows exactly what is being referred to in that "something." In those first few lines I always have a vivid image of the earth actively swelling beneath the wall, of the earth breathing deeply to crack the strange constraints placed upon it. Anyway, I'll make some more comments when I have the time. This should be an interesting poem to discuss.

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The first line is indeed interesting. First of all the sentence is incredibly strained, if not grammatically incorrect. What he means to say is "There is something that doesn't love a wall." By twisting the syntax around he's giving us a crooked sentence, if you will, which mirrors the broken, crooked wall. It is indeterminant at that line, which is important because I think it will foreshadow a different meaning, but in the following line he tells us exactly what causes the crookedness, the frozen ground. So what is the significance of Frost repeating that same line later on in a different context? I have not fully absorbed it all to articulate it, but I think ktd is on the right track with the "dynamic being set up between the land and man-made things".


edit: BTW, I love when someone uses the word "dynamic". It brings out the engineer in me.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:

What do ya'll think when Frost writes The work of hunters is another thing? This 'thing' is different from the 'something', right?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

edit: BTW, I love when someone uses the word "dynamic". It brings out the engineer in me.

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Thanks, my second word choice was 'thingamajig'.

On one level this rather dull poem is about ordinary work on a farm. In this case, the job of mending a stone wall. On another level, the poem is about barriers between people, the stone wall symbolising this barrier. Frost disapproves of such barriers and feels that nature agrees with him. In lines 1-3, he describes a natural phenomenon: how the ground freezes and expands in winter, causing the stones on top to fall off – but he attributes a motive to this phenomenon: a shared dislike of barriers.

The sight of his neighbour with a stone grasped firmly in each hand reminds Frost of “an old-stone savage armed”. His neighbour resembles prehistoric man, barbaric and uncivilised. Lines 41 and 42 suggest that it is not only the darkness of shade in which his neighbour moves, but also the darkness of ignorance and prejudice.

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Originally Posted by ktd222

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:

What do ya'll think when Frost writes The work of hunters is another thing? This 'thing' is different from the 'something', right?

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You pointed it out before.. the 'something' that doesn't love a wall, is nature, because it can send the frozen ground, which swells and moves, cracks, breaks up stones and the like, does not consider a wall made up of its own nature to be anything more than a pile of stones (in this case). And the second, the 'thing', is hunters and dogs who may pull it down to get what they want (the rabbit). So, either way, nature or man may not 'love' a wall. I get the sense that the 'something' is indescribable to him, as nature is, and hunters, dogs are single entities, things, that he can describe.

The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs.

I think what he is getting at is, while a wall is a physical construct, its not necessarily a 'barrier'. A barrier is a mental construct. While a wall is a wall, we decide to look at it as a separation, division, partition, barrier, or not.

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Originally Posted by The Unnamable

On one level this rather dull poem is about ordinary work on a farm. In this case, the job of mending a stone wall. On another level, the poem is about barriers between people, the stone wall symbolising this barrier. Frost disapproves of such barriers and feels that nature agrees with him. In lines 1-3, he describes a natural phenomenon: how the ground freezes and expands in winter, causing the stones on top to fall off – but he attributes a motive to this phenomenon: a shared dislike of barriers.

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Does Frost disprove of the Wall? The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair/Where they have left not one stone on a stone Why then, is he coming out to make repairs to the wall? I don't get the full sense of disapproval by him. The reasons why I don't quite understand yet.

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Originally Posted by The Unnamable

but he attributes a motive to this phenomenon: a shared dislike of barriers.

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I did not pick up that there is a shared dislike of barriers, as nature would even know its a barrier. I need to find that.

I think, this wall theme has been used a few times in poetry, Wordsworth???

And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, 'Good fences make good neighbors.'

He seems to have aligned himself with nature, while accepting 'Good fences' can be a good thing.

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Originally Posted by jackyyyy

And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, 'Good fences make good neighbors.'

He seems to have aligned himself with nature, while accepting 'Good fences' can be a good thing.

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Jackyy? I'm not sure I understand. It is the neighbor that says Good fences make good neighbors. He is referring to Frost when he says this, not anyone else. And remember the Wall is not in 'alignment' with the land, and those two people in the poem don't seem to be 'aligned' with the land if they are trying to repair the wall.

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Originally Posted by ktd222

Jackyy? I'm not sure I understand. It is the neighbor that says Good fences make good neighbors. He is referring to Frost when he says this, not anyone else. And remember the Wall is not in 'alignment' with the land, and those two people in the poem don't seem to be 'aligned' with the land if they are trying to repair the wall.

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Yes, and I am concluding this is Frost's overall message because its repeated.

1 he only says

2 he says again

I think that, overall, the message is about 'natural, unnatural walls' and 'barriers/separations/divisions of the mind', and that 'his thinking' is aligned to nature - though he accepts 'Good fences'. Sorry, I did not mean the wall was aligned as in engineering, rather his brain.

I'm not ready to move to the brain yet, but I would like to hear other people's opinions.

Here are some other questions I would like to ask you: what is the need for a wall? Can't the two still be neighbors without the wall?

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Originally Posted by ktd222

I'm not ready to move to the brain yet, but I would like to hear other people's opinions.

Here are some other questions I would like to ask you: what is the need for a wall? Can't the two still be neighbors without the wall?

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He writes, 'Good fences make good neighbours', indicating a wall may be a good thing. Therefore, a wall may be needed. I say, yes, they can still be neighbours, but, without a 'good' wall, they may not be good neighbours. I am keying on the word 'Good' here, because he is making the point.. there are good, bad, useless, pointless, whatever type of wall.