LOL I use to do that too. Glad you enjoyed the passages I selected.
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LOL I use to do that too. Glad you enjoyed the passages I selected.
Absolutely loved the passages you posted too!
"The silent mystery of traveling birds" ~ Beautiful.
"The strange stillness from all desire was a kind of wonder to the islander. He did not want anything. His soul at last was still in him, his spirit was like a dim-lit cave under water, where strange sea-foliage expands upon the watery atmosphere, and scarecely sways, and a mute fish shadowily slips in and slips away again. All still and soft uncrying, yet alive as rooted sea-weed is alive."
~ Such a wonderful image-evoking description for that stillness, desirelessness.
Let me just say you ladies are really carrying a wonderful conversation on this story and making such interesting observations. I must admit I'm the slacker here. Now I was searching through for the meaning of the infinity referesences and only to find that Janine has figured it out.
Eternity is a form of infinity and does starkly contrast. As I was going through the story looking through the infinty references, I continually found along side, references to the opposite, to finiteness. We've all seen the infinity passages, but look at this passage near the beginning of the story:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
"Cosy," "four miles if you walked around," "If you walked straight over the two humps of hills, the length of it, ... it took you only twenty minutes," "when you came to the edge," these are all references to the opposite of infinity, to finiteness.Quote:
What could be more cozy and home-like? It was four miles if you walked all round your island, through the gorse and the blackthorn bushes, above the steep rocks of the sea and down in the little glades where the primroses grew. If you walked straight over the two humps of hills, the length of it, through the rocky fields where the cows lay chewing, and through the rather sparse oats, on into the gorse again, and so to the low cliffs' edge, it took you only twenty minutes. And when you came to the edge, you could see another, bigger island lying beyond. But the sea was between you and it. And as you returned over the turf where the short, downland cowslips nodded you saw to the east still another island, a tiny one this time, like the calf of the cow. This tiny island also belonged to the islander.
Janine I think you're right. There is a sort of contrast set up where the infinity passages tie into a religious concept against the finiteness of reality. Here I think is a very important passage:Quote:
While reviewing I recalled two passages where Biblical references were made and wondered if anyone had any ideas on these two passages:
Oddly enough later, the islander does just that and breeds, only to spur him to separate himself even more from humanity.Quote:
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if you are like Abraham, and want your offspring to be numberless as the sands of the sea-shore, you don't choose an island to start breeding on.
Especially, this second statement fascinates me, which I find curious and I think must have some definitel significance to the story. I have one idea. This is that Christ suffered on earth from earthly imperfection and he died in the end. He was isolated as the islander was. The islander, like Christ, is seeking perfection on earth and he must also die at the end of the story, because on this earth 'perfection' cannot be realised. Only in the realms of eternity and infinity, can this perfection be realised and obtained.Quote:
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He was wonderful with children, talked to them simply wonderful, made you think of Our Saviour Himself, said the woman.
Circles is the aesthetic principle of the story I think. An island is a circle, a circle is perfection (an endless loop) but a circle is also finite too, it completes. Circles tie in with the concept of circular time as one of you ladies pointed out. I don't think Lawrence is aiming so much at primitive time versues modern time (as I think some one said) but in the religious time of infiinity versues the linear time of mankind.Quote:
But once isolate yourself on a little island in the sea of space, and the moment begins to heave and expand in great circles, the solid earth is gone, and your slippery, naked dark soul finds herself out in the timeless world, where the chariots of the so- called dead dash down the old streets of centuries, and souls crowd on the footways that we, in the moment, call bygone years. The souls of all the dead are alive again, and pulsating actively around you. You are out in the other infinity.
I probably said too much there and jumbles a bunch of thoughts. I hope it made sense.
If I had realized this religious sense of the story i would have used this in my thesis on Lawrence's use of transfiguration. Does Cathcart reach transfiguration?
Yes that is probably true, but I think in a way the Islander had to go back to the more primitive sense of time, and escape the constant press of civilization and man construrcted time, in order to truly gain the ablitly to experince the religous sense of infinity without being intruded upon by having to conform to mans linear time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Actually I should have qualified my statement. Primitive time is religious time for Lawrence. Paradise is that primitive state for him. So your statement is right on, Dark Muse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Virgil, you are an real ace. Thanks so much for going back and reading the posts and commenting. That means a lot to me, especially today. It is fine you have not been here too much lately; I know the 'Aeneid' is keeping you plenty busy, also your Christmas poem discussion. We still have plenty of time to discuss the deeper elements of the story; it is only the 15th today. It is always good to have your keen sense of perception a part of the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
First, thanks everybody, for posting those great quotes. I have been the slacker lately. Sorry about that. All of your comments are so important to me, I learn more this way. You are all doing a great job on this discussion.:thumbs_up
The passage with the 'fish' image is so reminescent of something Lawrence wrote (early on) in his first novel "The White Peacock". I must look this up, with some commentary on this idea, since it goes back to primitive man and some interesting ideas, that are definitely unique to 'Lawrence'; they keep cropping up in various pieces of his literture.
Virgil, I had wondered if you would notice the passages I had posted about the biblical references; I had you in-mind when I had posted them. I could not imagine Lawrence including them, unless they had a definite meaning. significance to the story. I like how you have linked them.
Wow, this 'time' thing is really interesting to me. I don't know if I have figured anything out really but thought it was good to throw out here for discussion the various elements of contrast concerning the time. You have expanded on that nicely. Now I really like the idea of the circle; islands being circles; time being a circle, perfection. Everything you wrote below makes perfect sense to me and then the statement:"when you came to the edge," ....then there is this paragraph:
I just love that last sentence! Wow, does this speak of 'infinity' to you, or what?Quote:
Strangely, from your little island in space, you were gone forth into the dark, great realms of time, where all the souls that never die veer and swoop on their vast, strange errands. The little earthly island has dwindled, like a jumping-off place, into nothingness, for you have jumped off, you know not how, into the dark wide mystery of time, where the past is vastly alive, and the future is not separated off.
Thanks V, I had gone back over the story paragraph by paragraph and I noticed that it seemed that these contrasts would follow each other, often in the passages. Yes, I agree, I think the 'infinity passages do definitely tie into religious concepts against the finiteness of reality.' That is an excellent way of expressing it.Quote:
Janine I think you're right. There is a sort of contrast set up where the infinity passages tie into a religious concept against the finiteness of reality. Here I think is a very important passage:
See, you did a similiar thing. It is so good to review the text, one sees things not noticed, on a first reading, or even a second.Quote:
Eternity is a form of infinity and does starkly contrast. As I was going through the story looking through the infinty references, I continually found along side, references to the opposite, to finiteness. We've all seen the infinity passages, but look at this passage near the beginning of the story:
Yes, it is cosy and you are right - so opposite the concept of 'infinity'. The island is finite still - perhaps this is why it does not work for Cathcart. Maybe this story is more than a story about 'isolation' and more about impending 'death', and maybe it is about Lawrence's thoughts on that and infinity? Just a wild thought. But think of the ending, with the snow obliterating the shape of the island - the island's restrictions of finiteness, no longer evident. Now Cathcart has achieved what he wanted all along - 'infinity', and yet this can only be achieved by death. As he also wants 'perfection', this too can only be achieved with death and the infinite. Interesting, isn't it?Quote:
"Cosy," "four miles if you walked around," "If you walked straight over the two humps of hills, the length of it, ... it took you only twenty minutes," "when you came to the edge," these are all references to the opposite of infinity, to finiteness.
This term 'primitive time' and 'religious time' interests me. I must learn more about these.Quote:
Circles is the aesthetic principle of the story I think. An island is a circle, a circle is perfection (an endless loop) but a circle is also finite too, it completes. Circles tie in with the concept of circular time as one of you ladies pointed out. I don't think Lawrence is aiming so much at primitive time versues modern time (as I think some one said) but in the religious time of infiinity versues the linear time of mankind.
You know, I picked up a book on 'Time' once and I will have to dig it up and read it. It is all about all the concepts of time in the world and history. Now I am intrigued.
Not at all. I understood all you said perfectly.Quote:
I probably said too much there and jumbles a bunch of thoughts. I hope it made sense.
Yes, that is true. And this is his later fiction, too. Is it too late to add on to it?....hahah...Lawrence would have done a complete rewrite. ;)Quote:
If I had realized this religious sense of the story i would have used this in my thesis on Lawrence's use of transfiguration. Does Cathcart reach transfiguration?
By the way, I came across a book on Amazon that sounded a lot like your thesis. Are you published now? :lol: I will have to look it up again and send you the title; might be something you would be interested in reading.
There have been many good posts, and they've had a surprising wide focus, too: everything from the story to Pre-Raphaelite art to vampires. If anyone accuses me of sidetracking the conversation, I'll know they're joking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Upon review of the posts, I also noticed how much of a jerk I must have looked telling everyone about the hopelessness of treating the story allegorically right after multiple people attempted precisely that. Sorry. I probably should have gone back and looked--rather than jumped in, totally unaware. Really, though, my point is harmless. I'm only saying that it's difficult to give a point to the story from only the text itself. If you have some other knowledge of Lawrence--which many of you do--you can apply it to this story and perhaps find some instructions encoded in the story. Or, one could follow the symbols and references and link the islands and the main character with certain ideas. From there, you could point to specific actions of the main character that have positive or negative effects on the story. Either way, though, you have to go outside of the story to make you're point, and this is always difficult.
I like what people have been posting about time and the ocean. I'll try to post something on that in a couple of hours when I come back to the computer.
Please do Janine. I'm curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Thanks.Quote:
Virgil, I had wondered if you would notice the passages I had posted about the biblical references; I had you in-mind when I had posted them. I could not imagine Lawrence including them, unless they had a definite meaning. significance to the story. I like how you have linked them.
Wow, this 'time' thing is really interesting to me. I don't know if I have figured anything out really but thought it was good to throw out here for discussion the various elements of contrast concerning the time. You have expanded on that nicely. Now I really like the idea of the circle; islands being circles; time being a circle, perfection. Everything you wrote below makes perfect sense to me and then the statement:"when you came to the edge,"
I thought that was worth repeating. I think it's the heart of the story.Quote:
I just love that last sentence! Wow, does this speak of 'infinity' to you, or what?Quote:
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Strangely, from your little island in space, you were gone forth into the dark, great realms of time, where all the souls that never die veer and swoop on their vast, strange errands. The little earthly island has dwindled, like a jumping-off place, into nothingness, for you have jumped off, you know not how, into the dark wide mystery of time, where the past is vastly alive, and the future is not separated off.
At first when I read that I thought how couod that be? But I think you're right. Life is finite and the spirit/soul is part of eternity/infinity.Quote:
Yes, it is cosy and you are right - so opposite the concept of 'infinity'. The island is finite still - perhaps this is why it does not work for Cathcart. Maybe this story is more than a story about 'isolation' and more about impending 'death', and maybe it is about Lawrence's thoughts on that and infinity? Just a wild thought.
Absolutely very interesting. I think we've got it!Quote:
But think of the ending, with the snow obliterating the shape of the island - the island's restrictions of finiteness, no longer evident. Now Cathcart has achieved what he wanted all along - 'infinity', and yet this can only be achieved by death. As he also wants 'perfection', this too can only be achieved with death and the infinite. Interesting, isn't it?
Oh you should skim that. Time in fiction is very important, and how a writer uses time is pertinent.Quote:
This term 'primitive time' and 'religious time' interests me. I must learn more about these.
You know, I picked up a book on 'Time' once and I will have to dig it up and read it. It is all about all the concepts of time in the world and history. Now I am intrigued.
What book is that? I would like to check it out. :)Quote:
Yes, that is true. And this is his later fiction, too. Is it too late to add on to it?....hahah...Lawrence would have done a complete rewrite. ;)
By the way, I came across a book on Amazon that sounded a lot like your thesis. Are you published now? :lol: I will have to look it up again and send you the title; might be something you would be interested in reading.
Quark, glad to see you back. Yes, this has been a wide focus and we went a little of-topic one night but hey, we all need to lighten up a little and the art was nice wasn't it. Even Shakespeare realized the need for 'comic relief' once in awhile. If anyone has taken offense to that, then that is truly their problem. We got back on-track and no harm was done. Quark, anytime you feel like 'sidetracking' a bit, I promise to be tolerant! :lol: Anyway, vampires might fit right in with Cathcart's ghostly images, what do you think? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
You are right, it is difficult and it seems the more we studied this particular story the more these ideas emerged. I think a good discussion is built this way. I don't think one has to know a great deal about Lawrence, but true it was quite helpful, to know that digging in deeper to these meanings of Lawrence's, such as the hope of one day forming his own utopian society, gave the story more dimension. I think if you merely take the time, to read the short biographical sketch (on this site) it will reveal these basic facts about Lawrence and his life's journey of discovery. Then you can relate some of his biographical facts directly to this story. I know we have had discussions, about separating the biography of the author from his work, but in this case to better understand this story and the meaning one needs to delve below the surface and seek additional facts that help define the story more clearly.Quote:
Upon review of the posts, I also noticed how much of a jerk I must have looked telling everyone about the hopelessness of treating the story allegorically right after multiple people attempted precisely that. Sorry. I probably should have gone back and looked--rather than jumped in, totally unaware. Really, though, my point is harmless. I'm only saying that it's difficult to give a point to the story from only the text itself. If you have some other knowledge of Lawrence--which many of you do--you can apply it to this story and perhaps find some instructions encoded in the story. Or, one could follow the symbols and references and link the islands and the main character with certain ideas. From there, you could point to specific actions of the main character that have positive or negative effects on the story. Either way, though, you have to go outside of the story to make you're point, and this is always difficult.
And Quark, you were not a jerk at all. Everyone on this thread and the forum have a right to their opinions. At that time, less had been revealed and this is how you saw the story personally...nothing wrong with that. I think probably, there are so many different ways, to look at and interpret this story, which makes this discussion even more interesting and mulifacted. This has truly been a great discussion and a good group of participants. I think we are all here to learn. We all have to be humble in order to open our minds to new idea and concepts of the story. If not, we will miss the point entirely.
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I like what people have been posting about time and the ocean. I'll try to post something on that in a couple of hours when I come back to the computer.
Yes, the 'time' elements have been fascinating. They start one thinking in much broader terms. 'Infinity' is a big word - expansive and evoking such need for deeper considerations and ideas. Now we are getting into a more philosophical realm of discussion, don't you think? Yes, I would like to hear more of your ideas on this, 'time and the ocean'. I recently saw a program on the oceans and these are vastly unexplored areas of this planet, they are still very mysterious and unknown, perhaps relating to 'infinity' , plus the thought has come to me how changable they are. This whole planet is 'ever-changing'. Nothing is truly fixed. All these thoughts make the story even more intriguing.
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Originally Posted by Virgil
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Originally Posted by Janine
Time or timelessness keeps being brought up. Specifically, the kind of time introduced in the first part of the story:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Lawrence conjures up the idea of a timeless infinity at contrast with the usual limited perspective. I think we're right to think of "infinity" as an important concept in the story, but I think we're wrong to consider the islander somehow willfully embracing "infinity" or timelessness. It seems quite the opposite. Cathcart's Utopian aspirations are not bringing him any closer to infinity; they are a way of overlooking the truth that he sees at night. After Lawrence explains the "infinity" of the island in the dark, he goes on to say, "To escape any more of this sort of awareness, our islander daily concentrated upon his material island. Why should it not be the Happy Isle at last?". Most of the rest of the story is dedicated to Cathcart's attempts to be happy: no more brooding reflections after the sun has gone down. At the end, the islander grudgingly accepts that he is not in control--this could be seen perhaps as a return to infinity. But, during the action of the story Cathcart resists the kind of awareness we have in the beginning of the story. To put this in literary, rather than philosophical, terms, we could say that the timelessness or "infinity" makes up something like the antagonist to Cathcart. It counters the islander and pushes the story to crisis.Quote:
But once isolate yourself on a little island in the sea of space, and the moment begins to heave and expand in great circles, the solid earth is gone, and your slippery, naked dark soul finds herself out in the timeless world, where the chariots of the so- called dead dash down the old streets of centuries, and souls crowd on the footways that we, in the moment, call bygone years. The souls of all the dead are alive again, and pulsating actively around you. You are out in the other infinity.
This is an intresting observation. And It can be seen as a struggle for control or perhaps to find some sort of balance with it. In a way the Islander does seem huanted by this idea of infinity and timelessness, but I agree that in some reguards it does not appear as if he is seeking it, for he is constnatly trying to fill his world with the material with bits of civilization when the infinity gets too much for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
You can see in the second island how slowly he starts to give up his attempts for control and began to accept more this idea of the infinte and then by the last island he has completly given up and simply accepts his fate.
Yeah, it is odd. It's hard to exactly peg Cathcart's relationship with the infinite beyond. In some moments, he appears to hide from it and at other times he welcomes it. On the third island, Lawrence even says, "He wanted only to hear the whispering sound of the sea, and the sharp cries of the gulls, cries that came out of another world to him. And best of all, the great silence." This sounds like a reprise for the thoughts in the beginning--except this time the islander is more attentive. Perhaps a better way of looking at the "infinite" in this story is to consider it as something tempting or luring him. I think you said "haunted"; this would be a good word. I'm starting to think we have to separate Cathcart's idealism in the first part to his ideals later in the story. His Utopian social plan is a communal goal, whereas his hope for a more numinous life at the end is something different from this. The later ambition appears to be driven by the voices that cry out from the ocean that remind him of the "infinite".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
The only problem with this approach, though, is the very end. If Cathcart is embracing the "infinite", why is he overcome?
Yes this is very true, and a good point. He does seem to want a Utopia for everyone, not just for himself, but later in the story he seems to be driven more into the need for isolation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
This is a good question, though at the end, I do not know if he is truly embracing it, or if he simply relizes he can no longer fight it, just as his death. A person knows they cannot escape thier death, but that does not mean they always will welcome its comming, but must eventurally simply accept the fact of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
It could also be the fact that he cannot truly know just what the infinite is like untill he is experincing it. So perhaps, he just begins to get overwhelmed by the idea of it, perhaps it is even more then he had first thought it would be once he was experincing it.
Well, the "infinite" concept may be different from the snow at the end. I think the snow belongs more to what Cathcart calls the "invisible hand". Lawrence explains thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
The "infinite", on the other hand, is what is haunting Cathcart. It's what makes him want to isolate himself on the island. Once again, Lawrence explaining:Quote:
"As sure as the spirits rose in the human breast, with a movement of joy, an invisible hand struck malevolently out of the silence. There must not be any joy, nor even any quiet peace."
The snow is this mysteriously destructive object that we're probably supposed to connect with Cathcart's other failures, but it's still unclear how the "infinite" thing works into any of this.Quote:
"It set you yearning, with a wild yearning; perhaps for the past, to be far back in the mysterious past of the island, when the blood had a different throb. Strange floods of passion came over you, strange violent lusts and imaginations of cruelty. The blood and the passion and the lust which the island had known. Uncanny dreams, half-dreams, half-evocated yearnings."
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Originally Posted by Quark
Sorry if I did not make myself clear, I was not trying to say that the snow or death and the infinte were the same. Only that perhaps the reason Cathcart was overcome was becasue perhaps he did not welcome the infinite with open arms but simply accepted the fact that he could not escape it and that death is also like this, but not to say they are the same thing just a similar idea surrounding the two.