im 100% sure that the most over rated writer is William Shakespeare, i mean come on its so dull. i dont care that its the basic for all literature ITS DULL
Julius Caeser isn't dull. Othello isn't dull...
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im 100% sure that the most over rated writer is William Shakespeare, i mean come on its so dull. i dont care that its the basic for all literature ITS DULL
Julius Caeser isn't dull. Othello isn't dull...
Leo Tolstoy is the worst author I have ever come across. He cannot write.
I forgot Dickens! He's a decent story teller, but personally, I got nothing out of Great Expectations...
Other overrated writers - Pynchon, Joyce...
im 100% sure that the most over rated writer is William Shakespeare, i mean come on its so dull. i dont care that its the basic for all literature ITS DULL
Kelby... JoZ...Comments like these I quoted are surely on par with declarations by teenage boys raised on heavy metal and Batman comics that "Mozart sucks!" and "Michelangelo blows!" For that reason they are largely so inane that one rarely bothers to comment... excepting that I was a bit bored yesterday.:D
Funny, I read Batman and still like Mozart. And what reading a visual medium like comic books has to do with one's tastes in an auditory medium like music is beyond me. Considering the topic you seem surprised that people find Joyce and Shakespeare overrated. G-d forbid people should develop their own tastes.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
Well, his popularity on Russia is partly due to the Soviet Union times, as he was considered as an opposition to bourgeois literature by Ministry of Culture.Quote:
Why people love it so much?
Don`t get me wrong, I can`t say that Tolstoy is a bad writer and only those who lack real taste and understanding can admire him. It`s just that he`s not my kind.
It’s one thing to say that you do not appreciate a writers style or how the convey themselves, it’s another thing entirely to vehemently lash out due to a lack of your own understanding for the works they produce.
I personally don’t care for Tolstoy but love Dostoevsky, others feel the opposite but that doesn’t make Tolstoy useless or over rated. Tolstoy can certainly write! He doesn’t write in a style that I care for though, that is far different than saying he “sucks” though.
For those of you who bash for the sake of bashing, has it ever occurred to you that what you may be reading is over your head? Probably not, I know, but hmmm, possibilities do exist now don’t they? That maybe your anger comes from your own lack of experience in the world or understanding the writers work and the era in which they were written? Age is the great equalizer and like me, someday you may come to appreciate what you currently don’t “get”, and then you may look in the mirror one morning and say, boy, I didn’t have a clue, did I?
Happy reading in what ever it is that you read and never apologize for liking what it is that you like. With that, never bash anyone for liking something different than you. We all started somewhere and elitists have done as much damage to literature as the bashing from those who feel like they ought to read something classic.
Considering the topic you seem surprised that people find Joyce and Shakespeare overrated. G-d forbid people should develop their own tastes.
Obviously you still have difficulty in discerning personal preference with statement of fact. But yes... yes... you've fully accepted the notions of cultural relativism so that there is no good nor bad, but thinking makes it so. I don't buy that crap. I have no problem with personal opinions. There are works of art and literature and music that undoubtedly have real merit and yet just don't speak to me. That is different than making objective statements of fact ("Tolstoy can't write." "Shakespeare is dull.") that are completely indefensible. Indeed, it would seem that common sense dictates that when one makes a value judgment that seemingly goes against the common thread it might do well do offer up some sort of proof in defense of one's position... or perhaps... rather than stating "Tolstoy can't write" the intelligent thing to do would be to state "I don't like Tolstoy. His work does nothing for me." The latter approach cannot be argued with as it is personal opinion and admits to such. The former suggests a statement of fact which succeeds only in calling the the person's abilities of judgment into question. The title of the thread, by the way, is "Who is the most over-rated writer ever?" This would seemingly demand an author whose reputation far exceeds his or her abilities. I would think that if one were to respond with the name of an author that has been somewhat admired for his or her abilities within the realm of serious literature (as opposed to shall we say an over-hyped contemporary novelist) that one might just wish to offer up some rationale... but that's just me.
No, I simply inserted "in my opinion" before the so-called statements of fact since the nature of the statements are clearly those of opinions without proof to back them up. If they had written "Tolstoy can't write because he constantly uses wrong punctuation here in paragraph 1, 2, 3, etc." I would've treated them as facts (you can't argue with a fact: the punctuation is either wrong or not). You can endlessly argue the quality and merit of an individual writer's prose or verse. Sure, the way they stated might make it sound like a statement of fact, but the actual content of the statements actually makes them opinion. Value-judgements are always subjective opinions. To put it another way, it's precisely that I can recognize the difference between an opinion and a fact that I understand when seemingly statements of facts are really just someone's opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
I am not a cultural relativist because I believe there are things in this world that are clearly bad and good. I am a practicing Jew, after all. Racism and discrimination is always bad for example. Nevertheless, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Art by its very nature is subjective. In fact, for someone who goes on and on about your respect for elitists and critics, you fail to recognize why we have elitists and critics in the first place. They're not there simply to transmit the culture or sing the praises of art in perfect harmonius agreement, but rather to deliver educated judgements that challenge and criticize each other's educated opinions. In other words, even educated opinions are subjective, and the elite, despite your simplistic portrait that you consistently paint of such a group rarely agree on anything. After all, who is leading this charge of multiculturalism and so-called relativism anyway? It certainly isn't the unwashed masses.
The one thing I agree with in your rebuttal is that, yes, people could do a better job in offering rationales to support their "statements of fact" that are really just opinions.
Overrated implies that you are dealing with authors that are rated highly and already in good esteem with one group or another (it might be with the masses, it might be with the critics). So it should surprise no one that people are taking swings at Shakespeare, Joyce, and company; all authors everyone praises, but for these individuals didn't do much for them. It would seem to me that's the point of the thread, but, yes, they could back up those opinions with some reasons they think those writers are overrated. No disagreement there.
Well, I guess I should have started with the point that I personally do not think that any fiction has some kind of "impersonal" value. You either like a book or you don`t like a book. A writer can`t be useless in general, he`s always useless for somebody. If I don`t like Tolstoy it makes him an overrated writer in my opinion. That`s what I meant.
It`s pretty simple to accuse somebody who doesn`t share your opinion of misunderstanding, isn`t it? I can say as well that you don`t admire Charles Manson because of misunderstanding.Quote:
That maybe your anger comes from your own lack of experience in the world or understanding the writers work and the era in which they were written?
I did say "maybe" and people are welcome to their own opinions, I accused no one. I do not think misunderstanding is a bad thing, we all do it and if you don’t, then we have found the new prophet amongst us! :p My opinion is mine and I don't care who agrees with it, I don't need another’s validation to make it an edict and I reserve the right to change my mind at any time. I’m open to the fact that I don’t know what I yet don’t know.Quote:
Originally Posted by breeze
I have nothing against Charles Manson, I don't know him, never met him, and personally, I could care less. No wait! I do admire that he had the capability and charisma to pull off the psychological fiasco that he did. To think that people are so easily swayed by another, hmmm, who would have thought that people could be that gullible? Nah, couldn’t happen to the rest of us now could it? Not that I agree with him mind you, but then again, that is only my opinion. ;)
But Shakespeare's just one of those ones where you have to try harder than other books. If they were making the point that it failed as theatre/poetry, fair enough, but it just sounds like the person making the comment is unable to understand Shakey :)
Art by its very nature is subjective.
Yes... certainly it all comes down to opinions... but I'll say it again, some opinions are better than others.:D
In fact, for someone who goes on and on about your respect for elitists and critics, you fail to recognize why we have elitists and critics in the first place.They're not there simply to transmit the culture or sing the praises of art in perfect harmonius agreement, but rather to deliver educated judgements that challenge and criticize each other's educated opinions.
Do you honestly believe that? I mean did you seriously invest the time and effort in studying and learning about literature simply so that you could challenge the opinions of other academics? That sounds rather pathetic, does it not? Personally, I spent and continue to spend the time and effort in reading, listening, and looking... studying about literature, music, and art because they give me pleasure... and in the case of art... because I imagine I just might succeed at creating something of interest myself. Challenging others' opinions is just a byproduct of the pleasure I have gained from great works of art which leads me to offer up my opinions in support of what I believe is worthy of recognition.
In other words, even educated opinions are subjective...
Unquestionably... and I have admitted as much repeatedly in acknowledging that I do not always see eye to eye with JBI, Mortalterror, yourself, or others just as the big-name academic critics do not always see eye to eye... but they/we usually have the common sense to frame any opinion which challenges the accepted norms as an opinion... or to offer some solid reasoning for why we believe as we do. "Tolstoy is the worst author... he cannot write" just doesn't seem to cut it.
...and the elite, despite your simplistic portrait that you consistently paint of such a group rarely agree on anything. After all, who is leading this charge of multiculturalism and so-called relativism anyway? It certainly isn't the unwashed masses.
Arguably, they would be academics that are more concerned with social engineering and questions of race, gender, politics, and economics than they are with art would they not?:D
Well, I certainly didn't go to grad school to mindlessly regurgitate the wisdom of my professors. I believe I answered why I read like a bagillion times already.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
I forgot Dickens! He's a decent story teller, but personally, I got nothing out of Great Expectations...
Other overrated writers - Pynchon, Joyce...
Kelby... JoZ...Comments like these I quoted are surely on par with declarations by teenage boys raised on heavy metal and Batman comics that "Mozart sucks!" and "Michelangelo blows!" For that reason they are largely so inane that one rarely bothers to comment... excepting that I was a bit bored yesterday.:D[/QUOTE]
I resent getting lumped in with those who said Tolstoy can't write and that shakespeare is dull. I said what you said i ought to say, that Dickens has talent but i dont care for him. AS for pynchon - I enjoy his style and absurdity, but I feel that even he can't control it. The way he ended vineland suggests to me, that he couldn't handle the fantastic world he created.
Joyce is obviously a great writer and a genious, but to have such great ideas burried under such impenetrable writing means that at least on some level he failed at his job as a writer. He wrote works that could be studied and cracked, rather than what could be enjoyed. That's an important aspect of fiction, so I say he's overrated. Great, but not as great as we want him to be.
Well now, I assume I can count you out, but I enjoy, more than enjoy, this bit of 'meaning under mass' which is what Joyce is at face value. His work is fun and more of a celebration of literature if anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchegan
I don't mean to attack you personally, for I am definitely not, but I say this to users who post absurdities about the Joyce, in the same vein of previous posters about Shakespeare!
Yeah, I notice that too. I thought it odd that St Lukes defended himself by saying he had no problem with people's personal reactions and it was only when they displayed it as statements of fact that it got on his nerves, which is why he highlighted those statement, when your comments about Dickens that he quoted clearly were worded as a personal reaction. He also did the same exact thing a few posts back with some guy sharing his personal dislike of Shakespeare. I think this pretty much indicates that the problem wasn't how you or anyone else said it (as he claimed in the initial post responding to me), but that you had the audacity to suggest it in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchegan
This conversation has been hilarious to read, and not because people are taking swings at some of the greatest authors ever, but because of the defensive almost paranoid responses to the people reacting in sheer disbelief of the choices. :thumbs_up