One of the things I have noticed about the story is the way in which it seems to mix its references.
It useses refercenes to the ancient celts, Greek Mythology, and Christianty and varrious points within the story.
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One of the things I have noticed about the story is the way in which it seems to mix its references.
It useses refercenes to the ancient celts, Greek Mythology, and Christianty and varrious points within the story.
This is quite characteristic to Lawrence. In "Women in Love" he did this sort of referencing quite often, I am thinking mainly of the Greek and classical Mythology and Christianity, but he also referenced to other past cultures, such as African or Egyptian. I think these Celtic references in this story are pretty native to this area, he was thinking of when he fashioned this story, after a certain place in his mind. The fact he does use these Celtic references, do clue us in on the location of the story, don't you think? There is something northern or nordic about the location. He said from the start it was not a tropical island with palm trees. Lawrence was quite well read in the classics, aware of local myth and these Biblical references, which lead me to believe that they are very symbolic to Lawrence. This is why I sited them in my last post. I feel if he took the time to include them specifically, in the story, they must have some greater significance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Oooh, I love those usages of gossamer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I find that very interesting. Even though I didn't in my mind think him to be a compassionate Christ-like figure while reading. In the end, as he approaches the end, there is the phrase Once, like a wraithQuote:
Especially, this second statement fascinates me, which I find curious and I think must have some definitel significance to the story. I have one idea. This is that Christ suffered on earth from earthly imperfection and he died in the end. He was isolated as the islander was. The islander, like Christ, is seeking perfection on earth and he must also die at the end of the story, because on this earth 'perfection' cannot be realised. Only in the realms of eternity and infinity, can this perfection be realised and obtained.
Let me know what you think of these ideas. I just through them out there for debate.
so maybe he became one with those ghosts mentioned in the first island and will perhaps finally attain that perfection, that eternity, that infinity, in his death.Quote:
Once, like a wraith, he got out, and climbed to the top of a white hill on his unrecognizable island. The sun was hot. "It is summer", he said to himself, "and the time of leaves." He looked stupidly over the whiteness of his foreign island, over the waste of the lifeless sea. He pretended to imagine he saw the wink of a sail. Because he knew too well there would never again be a sail on that stark sea.
Isn't it a wonderful word?! It evokes such images. Funny, I just saw the older 'Midsummer Night's Dream' film and in one scene these tiny fairies help to weave a gossamer net over the head of the fairy queen and it becomes a veil. It was so magical and so beautiful. The gossamer came from a spider weaving his web. I was thinking how this passage was like that spider web and not existing in the physical realm or sense, but magical or mystical. It suggests that to me...a dreamlike state. I think the islander is now deep in a trance or dreamlike stage of 'unreality'.Quote:
Hira;513296]Oooh, I love those usages of gossamer.
Well, I thought of this correlation, because Lawrence had a real fascination with crucifixes and felt he got crucified by his public and publishers, even his closest friends, time and time again; crucifixes and Christ images are prevalent in Lawrence writings. He once walked through the hills and mountains of Italy, writing his fine travel novel, "Twilight in Italy", and the whole time he notes the various shrines and crosses along the way. Also, late in life he wrote "The Man Who Died" about his Christ figure remaining on earth and exhibiting very human characteristics. Instead of a crucified Christ dying and ascending to heaven, Lawrence's Christ is resurrected to live out his days on earth. It is a complicated story and one you should read someday, when you have devoured more of the early Lawrence work. It needs to be worked up to. It is however a very interesting short piece work.Quote:
I find that very interesting. Even though I didn't in my mind think him to be a compassionate Christ-like figure while reading. In the end, as he approaches the end, there is the phrase Once, like a wraith
Possibly, but not sure of this idea. Ghosts are still restless spirits so I think if anything the man, before his death, is a ghost since he is indeed a restless spirit in the flesh.Quote:
so maybe he became one with those ghosts mentioned in the first island and will perhaps finally attain that perfection, that eternity, that infinity, in his death.
I agree about the quotes; there are lots of pretty quotes throughout the story. I'll have to post one or two myself.
Virgil, that would be great if you could do so. I would read them, there is such interesting phrasing of words, don't you think? Lots of time, so don't rush.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Perhpas I should re-read over the story and post a few of my faveorite passages.
Dark Muse, It is always good to re-read the story,review and then post some things that stand out to you. You might notice something you had not, on your first reading. Hopefully Quark will be joining in tomorrow and can add some comments/ideas to what has already been said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I am not having a good day, so I am going to take a break tonight. I will try and be back tomorrow when I feel better.
You know, as I'm going back through the old posts n this story, I think this is a very interesting observation that was not discussed. Now at some point on all three islands it does turn for the worse, but the shear beauty and idyllic life just before that turn does suggest a utopia. The utopia is not possible to sustain, but it is there. Perhaps the fault lies in Cathcart. Certainly on the second island what would have been wrong to live with the wife and child? And even on the first one, so it was losing money. Is that a reason to just give up? Lawrence wouldn't consider it so. So look toward the end of the first part:Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
So the problem really is in him. He is not like Julia fron "Sun." He just can't find contenment. It's like the utopia is there, but the problem is in himself, either in dealing with people or in committing to it.Quote:
The people were not contented. They were not islanders. "We feel we're not doing right by the children," said those who had children. "We feel we're not doing right by ourselves," said those who had no children. And the various families fairly came to hate one another.
Yet the island was so lovely. When there was a scent of honey- suckle, and the moon brightly flickering down on the sea, then even the grumblers felt a strange nostalgia for it. It set you yearning, with a wild yearning; perhaps for the past, to be far back in the mysterious past of the island, when the blood had a different throb. Strange floods of passion came over you, strange violent lusts and imaginations of cruelty. The blood and the passion and the lust which the island had known. Uncanny dreams, half-dreams, half-evocated yearnings.
The Master himself began to be a little afraid of his island. He felt here strange violent feelings he had never felt before, and lustful desires that he had been quite free from. He knew quite well now that his people didn't love him at all. He knew that their spirits were secretly against him, malicious, jeering, envious, and lurking to down him. He became just as wary and secretive with regard to them.
Your first sentence I think is right on Amalia, but now I think it's not the people who are the problem, but his inability to accept and find happiness.Quote:
Notice that we are told that:"He was born on one, but it didn't suit him, as there were too many other people on it." This could be a criticism to the world as it is.
Yes, you're right he strikes that balance and he does it to show that Cathcart is inherently at fault. Perhaps that's why that Mckenzie guy wanted to sue Lawrence.Quote:
What I love is the way Lawrence retains the balance between the two "sides" of the issue. He mentions something which is a treasure, in my opinion. "Thus, it seems that even islands like to keep each other company." Here, we see that no matter how "lonely" a person may be, company is vital for the continuation of life. Loneliness may be a "trap", there can be dangers in a life like this. It seems that noone can live all alone.
I started a thread a while back ago about failure in Modernist literature, and if I had read this story then I would have included it in my original point. This story is series of hopes, frustrations, then failures. Despite his high hopes, he fails to live in a community (first island), fails in his romantic, familial, and professional roles (second island), and fails as an individual on the third island. On each island, he adopts a different attitude and means for success, but none of them actually work. Instead, he suffers from frustration and depression. In the face of all of this, you can only laugh or cry, and the moods of the story reflect this. Early in the story the mood is comical and light-hearted, but in the last parts it's morbidly gloomy. I think if you tried hard enough to moralize on this story you could. One could try to find where the islanders Utopian plans went wrong. Or, you could try to define nature in the story and show how the islander deviated from its precepts. I don't think this kind of analysis would really help us understand the story, though. The story, itself, is more invested in what happens to its main character.
I have some more to say, but I think I should go back and look at the other posts before I get too carried away.
Good observation. You make a good point with this. Glad to have you join in on the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Quark, so glad to see you here! I like how you summed up this story and how you are looking at it. I think if you go back and read the posts, you will get much from that, many varied ideas. There have been some very good comments and I am sure you could expand on those, as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Did you like the story? Interesting about the thread you started with this very point in mind. I will have to go back and review that thread. Yes, the story does entail a failed effort, even though it began so hopeful. I do think it has a moral or a lesson and as Virgil mentioned pointed this out in a comparison to a Tolstoy story, and also to Robinson Crusoe, and the fact that the C did succeed in making his island paradise work, by working along with obstacles and nature. Nature here is a key element. As one knows, you cannot control the weather or the seasons.
Quark, I know this is off-topic but will you be starting up the Chekhov thread again soon? I hope to participate again.
Virgil, I will answer your post later on. I know some of the things you brought up were discussed earlier; you bring up some other good points.
Dark Muse, good to see you today and commenting again. This is a good group in this thread. Let's keep it going for awhile longer, more people have shown an interest to me personally, in reading this story.
I hope someone posts some of the lovely passages in the story - quite poetic and I am sure some speak to us in certain broader 'universal' ways.
I hope to have some to post soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
This sentence I found intresting becasue it seems to suggest that his original intent was not in fact isolataion, but simply to escape the world at large and become master of his own demain, to create his own world, but one that others might inhabit, as long as it was his.Quote:
He wanted an island all of his own: not necessarily to be alone on it, but to make it a world of his own.
I thought this was a great passage, and it used some really good examples of foreshadow. The stealing mist, and glare of the sea, seem to give us a clue that all might not be well. I also love the way the foghorn moo's.Quote:
Before the mist came stealing, and you went home through the ripening oats, the glare of the sea fading from the high air as the foghorn started to moo on the other island. And then the sea-fog went, it was autumn, and the oat-sheaves lying prone; the great moon, another island, rose golden out of the say, and rising higher, the world of the sea was white.
The last line, "the world of the sea was white" seems to suggest the wintery cold end that is to come.
I really like this passage, I have also noticed that Lawrence uses repition alot, as other quotes posted here have shown. The word time, and mystery, also appear in several places throughout the story, as well as references to space.Quote:
Strangely, from your island in space, you were gone forth into the dark, great realms of time, where all the souls that never die veer and swoop on thier vast, strange errands. The little earthly island had dwindled, like a jumping-off place, into nothingness, for you have jumped off, you know not how, into the dark wide mystery of time, where the past is vastly alive, and the future is not sperated off.
I just love this passageQuote:
But once you isolate yourself on a little island in the sea of space, and the moment begins to heave and expand in great circles, the solid earth is gone, and your slippery, naked dark soul finds herself out in the timeless world, where the chariots of the so-called dead dash down the old streets of centuries, and souls crowd on the footways that we, in the moment, call bygone years. The souls of all the dead are alive again, and pulsating actively around you. You are out in another infinity.
I found this interesting after he departs from the world to form is own perfect world, he begins to try and bring in the world he left in order to make his own world feel more like Paradise.Quote:
He began, as we begin all our attempts to regain Paradise, by spending money.
The idea not liking anyone as an individual or for who they were as people is another demostration of his inability to really have any sort of relationship with anyone. He wanted them to be happy in a general way, simply becasue it was his own world and he wanted it to be his utopia.Quote:
It is doubtful whether and of them really liked him man to man, or even woman to man. But then it is doubtful if he really liked any of them as man to man or man to woman. He wanted them to be happy, and the little world to be perfect. But still any one who wants the world to be perfect must be careful not to have real likes or disliked. A general good-will is all you can afford.
Aslo it is a very Buddist like philosophy to love man or woman not personaly or individually but to just generally want goodness for everyone becasue they are a part of the world that you share with them.
Loved thisQuote:
Yet the island was so lovely. When there was a scent of honey-suckle, and the moon brightly flickering down on the sea, then even the grumblers felt a strange nostalgia for it. It set you yearning, with the wild yearnings; perhaps for the past, to be far back in the mysterious past of the island, when the blood had a different throb. Strange floods of passion come over you, strange violent lusts and imaginations of cruelty. The blood and the passion and the lust which the island had known. Uncanny dreams, half-dreams, half-evocated yearnings.
I found it inresting that with this move to the second island, his view and wants began to change as well. Now it seems that he is begining to shift more toward the longing of isolation.Quote:
The island was not longer a "world." It was a sort of refuge.
I loved the line
Quote:
The silent mystery of travelling birds.
Loved the imagery, words and discriptions here.Quote:
The strange stillness from all desire was a kind of wonder to the islander. He did not want anything. His soul at last was still in him, his spirit was like a dim-lit cave under water, where strange sea-foliage expands upon the watery atmosphere, and scarecely sways, and a mute fish shadowily slips in and slips away again. All still and soft uncrying, yet alive as rooted sea-weed is alive.
It seems here the transistion is complete, as on the second island he began to loose desire, and mentioned that he did not care if he got published, now he loseses his will to even attempt anything, but becomes lethargic. Nothing no longer really matters to him. Perhaps this is a warning aganist general good will and not forming personal attachments?Quote:
He no longer workd on his book. The interest has gone.
I love the way the birds momentairly revive him. And the fact that birds play an important and predominant role through the story. They are given almost an etheral quality. The islander does not truly view them as a part of the world, and so they are the only things that do not seem to intrude upon his isolation.Quote:
Many gulls were on ths island now: many sea-birds of all sorts. It was another world of life. Many of the birds he had never seen before. His old impulse came over him, to send for a book, to know thier names. In a flicker of the old passion, to know the name of everything he saw, he even decided to row out to the steamer. The names of the birds! he must know their names, otherwise he had not got them, they were not quite alive to him.
I loved this passage, and noticed that on the third island the writing becomes very Poe like in nature.Quote:
The dark days of winter drew on. Sometimes there was no real day at all. He felt ill, as if he were dissolving, as if dissolution had already set in inside of him. Everything was twilight, outside and in his mind and soul. Once when he went to the door, he saw black heads of men swimming in his bay. For some moments he swooned unconcious. It was the shock, the horror of unexepcted human apporach. The horror in the twilight! And not till the shock had undermined him and left him disembodied, did he realize that the black heads were the heads of seals swimming in.
Dark Muse, this is great! Good work and good thinking on your part. Thanks for quoting all of those. I will try and comment on each passage later. I love the ones you chose to post. Aren't they deeply poetic? I love things about the sea and some of these are lovely to read independent of the story. I used to write passages, I particularly liked, in a small notebook to read later on, and some of these would be fine to add to that collection. I may just do so.