D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

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Originally Posted by Janine

DM,Yes, it pretty clearcut isn't it. The snow could represent 'death' itself encrouching on us and 'obliterating' life itself.

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Yes that is a good point, about the snow being the comming of death.

I have also though of the idea of ferlitlity vs bareness particualy with the idea of the seasons.

With the springtime of the first island representing fertility, where there is more life and more of the utoptian idea, and then moving more toward the winter of the thrid island represnting barness and the abcenses of life.

Particuarly with the idea, of how when he leaves his child behind, he is turning away from new life and growth, so he goes to a cold place of winter where life could not grow.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Sorry I've had to be away form the conversation most of the week. I'm a little overwhelmed. Janine, thanks for bringing us back on topic, and thanks for this excellent post. You bring up a few questions, and I'm not sure if they got answered after your post, since I haven't read beyond this. But let me see if I could comment on what you have here.

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Virgil, no problem. Glad to see you back. I realise you are emersed in the Aeneid discussion and that certainly is enough for one person for this month. I have tried to check occasionally on that progress and it looks like an active thread...great! Sorry you are overwhelmed; you can always review when you are less busy. This story has been going along well. Some were answered but that is ok; I always like to hear your thoughts and feedback on what I have written and considered.

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Good point. Contrast is a very important method Lawrence uses (actually most writers); remember Lawrence thinks in binary.

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Yes, I knew it to be a big element in this other stories we studied and the novels, as well. Hey, it is getting easier now to spot these devises of Lawrence's. I think I know how the man thinks - well, to some extent. Is 'binary' the right word to use in this instance? Would you believe it; I had to look it up for exact meaning and I thought it would indicate 'contrast' but according to my pocket dictionary this seems to state having to do with doubles or twos. Can you explain more clearly what you mean by it specifically?

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I agree!

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...haha, brilliant minds think alike!:lol:

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I took the snake reference, like the snake in "Sun" as a suggestion of paradise lost.

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I think I did also, but it does seem to indicate the state of the man and the island in winter months and when the trouble and uneasiness set in in this particular image of the snake in this state of not being asleep or awake. Isn't the islander in this limbo state himself? Well, the snake could indeed suggest the snake/serpent of the lost paradise, or Eden. I am not sure how temptation fits into this story except in the case of the widow. What do you think? In his way, this man is seeking the lost paradise, but he never is able to regain that. In seeking it it is the opposite to losing it and being driven out of paradise. He instead drove himself out of the negation of paradise (the industralial world) to embark on creating his own paradise; but of course it never works out for him, same as it never did work out for Lawrence.

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Now here's where I would like people's thoughts. What is the significance of the "infinite" references through the story? I think I understand the story pretty well, but this is one aspect I can't figure out.

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I think the idea of infinity has a huge significance here. I think for one thing it must have been greatly on Lawrence's mind at this stage in his life. At the end, when the snow comes to the last island, is that not like the total obliteration of 'life' itself, as we know it and death comes to replace what we have known? We cannot know exaclty what death is as we don't know what infinity is either; both are beyond our earthly comprehension. Time is a limited thing and infinity is the opposite of time; it has no beginning and end. This image of the snow blending into the sea, seems to me, to indicate infinity...a endless space with no limitations and no boundaries. No longer can the island be differenciated from the sea. This represents infinity conceptually.

Warning - Spoiler "for Women in Love".

This so much reminds me of Gerald's ending in the infinite snowy space in the mountains. Was that not an infinity as well? Also, the snow envoking a luminous white light, as one would see after death, representing infinity.

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Actually this strikes me as another off hand reference to infinite. There are lots of these references to infinite. I should go through the story again and document them. But what's Lawrence suggesting?

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Oh, would you do that? That would be great and to post the passages and bold up the word 'infinity'. That would be totally interesting to me, to see just how many times it is repeated in the text. As DM, stated the three islands do seem to represent various stages in a man's life, the last looking toward death, and I add 'infinity'. I believe at this stage Lawrence was definitely thinking in terms of 'infinity'...during this time period he had visited the Etruscan tombs and any possibilities of an afterlife in infinite space was greatly present on his mind.

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It is brilliant writing. Yes i agree time is in relation to isolation (and I uderstand that), but I think it's also connected to the infinite, and I don't quite understand that. I hope we can work through a meaning for it. :)

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I hope I started to work through it; or gave you some ideas towards that end. I know also, that L, soon after this writing, wrote his "Apocalypse", which I read this past year. This Cambridge text, the last in the biography series, looks incredibly interesting to me; I only own the first two editions/installments of the biographies. I looked it up on Amazon and it is highly expensive, but I will keep an eye out for a reasonable copy. How I would love to read it, eventually. First I do hope to read the preceeding two: "The Early Years" and "The Outsider". These are incredibly detailed works and very good with wonderful information.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Oh, would you do that? That would be great and to post the passages and bold up the word 'infinity'. I would be totally interesting to me to see just how many times it is repeated in the text.

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OK I will do that. :)

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Originally Posted by Virgil

OK I will do that. :)

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Virgil - thanks, that would be great!

Hey, I was hoping that you would give me some feedback on my last post and my ideas on the 'infinity' question....well, when you have the time to. Also, in relationship to the ending of "Women in Love"...I value what you think; your opinion of what I was getting at.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Yes that is a good point, about the snow being the comming of death.

I have also though of the idea of ferlitlity vs bareness particualy with the idea of the seasons.

With the springtime of the first island representing fertility, where there is more life and more of the utoptian idea, and then moving more toward the winter of the thrid island represnting barness and the abcenses of life.

Particuarly with the idea, of how when he leaves his child behind, he is turning away from new life and growth, so he goes to a cold place of winter where life could not grow.

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That is interesting. I did not notice the seasons of the different islands. But what is it on the second island?

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Originally Posted by Janine

Virgil - thanks, that would be great!

Hey, I was hoping that you would give me some feedback on my last post and my ideas on the 'infinity' question....well, when you have the time to. Also, in relationship to the ending of "Women in Love"...I value what you think; your opinion of what I was getting at.

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Let the infinity question hold until I look through the story for references. As to Gerald at the end of WIL, yes the same thought came to me as I read. Also reminded me of The Prussian Officer. It seems Lawrence's death scenes are similar. :D

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Originally Posted by Virgil

That is interesting. I did not notice the seasons of the different islands. But what is it on the second island?

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Janine is the one who first began to talk about the idea of seasons and the islands, I just sort of linked that idea of seasons to my ideas of fertility vs. barness as the story progressess.

That is an intresting question though.

I would think that Autumn might be the best match for the second island becasue it is the transition period between spring and winter, as well it is in Autumn that things first begin thier decay and that life first starts to wither, and yet it can still have its beauty and pleasent moments.

As we can see on the second island, it is leading up to the ultimate downfall of the last island, and is not quite as fresh as the first island was, and yet there seems to be some contentment there at least for a time.

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Yes that is a good point, about the snow being the comming of death.

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Well, this is the thing; this idea crops up often in Lawrence's work. He seems to link 'white' and 'luminous' and 'snow' and 'ice' with death. Did you read the 'Prussian Officer', Dark Muse, or "Women in Love"? If you did, then you see what I mean. I think that the cold could also indicate death - the body goes cold and also the fact the man keeps getting trapped in his house at the end, when the snow comes - the house becomes as a tomb. He desperately keeps digging out and even his boat must be dug out so he has an escape means and route, but ultimately all this is useless and he gives in to death. I can see how Lawrence would understand this entirely from the vivid memory of his own mother's fight for life when she was wasting away slowly and dying of cancer. At this point in Lawrence's mind he must have felt his own death encrouching upon his life and existence and he must have had these feelings of what it would be like to struggle for life but know one would ultimately have to succumb to the inevitable, the final dissolving into nothingness or eternity/infinity.

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I have also though of the idea of ferlitlity vs bareness particualy with the idea of the seasons.

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That is an interesting idea to bring into this discussion. Afterall, the woman was fertile and bore the islander a child, even though he did not show it love or take it into his life. The first island was full of fertile qualities and full of life and the second less so, almost there to be a transition to island #3, but then he had Flora's fertiliy on the second island. Do you think this 'fertiliy vs bareness' idea coincides with the seasons? Both mark the passage of time, as do the days and the nights, the sun and the moon, the light and the darkness. Without clocks and calibrations, we are shown that time still passes and is not something needing to be measured. It flows naturally; one season flows into the other, darkness flows into light, spring into summer, summer into fall, fall into winter...a natural progression....and thus a natural concept of time and of a man's life proceeding into the realm of death.

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With the springtime of the first island representing fertility, where there is more life and more of the utoptian idea, and then moving more toward the winter of the thrid island represnting barness and the abcenses of life.

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Yes, quite a contrast between island #1 and island #2, isn't there?

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Particuarly with the idea, of how when he leaves his child behind, he is turning away from new life and growth, so he goes to a cold place of winter where life could not grow.

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Again a stark contrast indeed! Even to consider - human warmth to cold aloneness.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Janine is the one who first began to talk about the idea of seasons and the islands, I just sort of linked that idea of seasons to my ideas of fertility vs. barness as the story progressess.

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DM, thanks for giving me the credit for that idea. We did good, linking our two ideas/concepts into one, didn't we? As they say 'two heads are better than one!':lol:

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That is an intresting question though.

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It is an interesting question.

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I would think that Autumn might be the best match for the second island becasue it is the transition period between spring and winter, as well it is in Autumn that things first begin thier decay and that life first starts to wither, and yet it can still have its beauty and pleasent moments.

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I will check the text tonight, but that certainly would make sense and follow the progression or regression here. Yes, 'transition' seems to be the key idea here on island #2.

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As we can see on the second island, it is leading up to the ultimate downfall of the last island, and is not quite as fresh as the first island was, and yet there seems to be some contentment there at least for a time.

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Seems to start out with some contentment but then it goes sour pretty quickly when things don't go as expected.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Well, this is the thing; this idea crops up often in Lawrence's work. He seems to link 'white' and 'luminous' and 'snow' and 'ice' with death. Did you read the 'Prussian Officer', Dark Muse, or "Women in Love"?

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No I have not yet read either of those books. Though Women in Love is on one of my reading lists.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Do you think this 'fertiliy vs bareness' idea coincides with the seasons? Both mark the passage of time, as do the days and the nights, the sun and the moon, the light and the darkness. Without clocks and calibrations, we are shown that time still passes and is not something needing to be measured. It flows naturally; one season flows into the other, darkness flows into light, spring into summer, summer into fall, fall into winter...a natural progression....and thus a natural concept of time and of a man's life proceeding into the realm of death."?

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I did breifly mention in one of my other posts, the idea of the seaons inccorperted into the baren/fertility idea.

And how the springtime of the first island and the paradise like feel of it at the begining could relate to ideas of fertility and life, while the cold and wintertime of the last island corresponded with ideas of barness.

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Originally Posted by Janine

DM, thanks for giving me the credit for that idea. We did good, linking our two ideas/concepts into one, didn't we? As they say 'two heads are better than one!':lol:

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Hehe it seemed only fair, and yes that is true. The two ideas do tie into each other nicely I think.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Seems to start out with some contentment but then it goes sour pretty quickly when things don't go as expected.

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Yes that is true

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

No I have not yet read either of those books. Though Women in Love is on one of my reading lists.

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"Women in Love" is great. We recently discussed it on the forum. "Prussian Officer" is a longer short story. We also, discussed it on this thread, not long back; check out the post - there were many. It is a very good story; captivating.

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I did breifly mention in one of my other posts, the idea of the seaons inccorperted into the baren/fertility idea.

And how the springtime of the first island and the paradise like feel of it at the begining could relate to ideas of fertility and life, while the cold and wintertime of the last island corresponded with ideas of barness.

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Dark Muse, I guess it all got jumbled in my mind, sorry about that...you had linked them; you are quite right. It is like the saying 'which came first, the chicken or the egg' - we both seem to be inspiring the other's thoughts, which is actually a positive thing. I am also thinking how seasons and the fertility processes are based on cycles. These tie in with a conceptual idea of time. Some cultures count out time by cycles and know nothing of clocks.

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Hehe it seemed only fair, and yes that is true. The two ideas do tie into each other nicely I think.

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Like I said above, we are stimulating each others thought processes, a very good thing; discussions should work this way, don't you think? We learn more when we exchange thoughts and ideas.

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Yes that is true

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Yes, agree.


Last night I did look up whether island #2 mentions being 'autumn' or starting out that way. It does seem Lawrence emphasises the spring/summer beginning the islander's occupancy on the first island and then on island #2 just a short way in he does mention the work 'autumn'. Now, we know that on island #3, he certainly emphasis' 'winter'....
So all our thoughts on the 'seasons' would seem to be accurately observed. If nothing more, the major part of the time spend on each island relates somehow to one of the seasons, even though that season evenually flows into the next.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I am also thinking how seasons and the fertility processes are based on cycles. These tie in with a conceptual idea of time. Some cultures count out time by cycles and know nothing of clocks.

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Most pre-Christain cultures also viewed time a cyclical, instead of linear which is a newer Westeren idea that first began to emerge with Christainty. As many ancient cultures beleived in the idea of the earth going through a rebirthing process opposed to just comming to an ultimate end as in Armageddon.

Alot of this would come from with the idea of traking time by the rise and fall of the run and moon, and the changes of the seasons, as well as star posistions in the sky, opposed to clocking or tracking hours.

As for most needs of surivival such as planting, harvesting, hunting, it would nto matter the hour in which it was done, only that it was done when the earth would be the most favorable.

[

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Originally Posted by Janine

Like I said above, we are stimulating each others thought processes, a very good thing; discussions should work this way, don't you think? We learn more when we exchange thoughts and ideas.

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Yes, that is very true, and I do agree.

Is the story online anywhere? I'm going to look for it in the library tomorrow, but I don't foresee having much luck there.

http://www.literature.org/authors/la...-09/index.html

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

http://www.literature.org/authors/la...-09/index.html

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DM, Thanks for posting that link for Quark. I read it offline (in my book), but I am using that online text, to post from for quotes. I copied and pasted it and keep it on my desktop to work on from time to time, or to review. It works out well, this new method of mine.

No Problem, I had the site book marked becasue it is where I first got the story from.

I find this passage particularly interesting and these thoughts are expressed so beautifully. It makes me think of how a writer must feel at times:

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The islander said to himself: "Is this happiness?" He said to himself: "I am turned into a dream. I feel nothing, or I don't know what I feel. Yet it seems to me I am happy."

Only he had to have something upon which his mental activity could work. So he spent long, silent hours in his study, working not very fast, nor very importantly, letting the writing spin softly from him as if it were drowsy gossamer. He no longer fretted whether it were good or not, what he produced. He slowly, softly spun it like gossamer, and, if it were to melt away as gossamer in autumn melts, he would not mind. It was only the soft evanescence of gossamery things which now seemed to him permanent.

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Note this deliberate repetition and use of the word 'gossamer'. This is very effective and sets a definite mood of a dreamlike state. I feel this passage is spinning a kind of web of dreams or subconsicousness. The man seems to be working and writing fluidly, but he is not consciously doing so. He is emersed in another 'unworldly realm' within himself. This mimics the state of the snake in an earier passage of being neither 'awake or asleep'. I love this line also: "letting the writing spin softly from him as if it were drowsy gossamer." Gossamer - what a great word that is!

then, the paragraph continues...

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The very mist of eternity was in them. Whereas stone buildings, cathedrals for example, seemed to him to howl with temporary resistance, knowing they must fall at last; the tension of their long endurance seemed to howl forth from them all the time.

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The very mist of eternity...this is a very interesting line and starkly contrasts the next lines stating the fact of the temporary resistence, but inevidable fall of the, seemingly, permanent structures, made by man.

While reviewing I recalled two passages where Biblical references were made and wondered if anyone had any ideas on these two passages:

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if you are like Abraham, and want your offspring to be numberless as the sands of the sea-shore, you don't choose an island to start breeding on.

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Oddly enough later, the islander does just that and breeds, only to spur him to separate himself even more from humanity.

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He was wonderful with children, talked to them simply wonderful, made you think of Our Saviour Himself, said the woman.

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Especially, this second statement fascinates me, which I find curious and I think must have some definitel significance to the story. I have one idea. This is that Christ suffered on earth from earthly imperfection and he died in the end. He was isolated as the islander was. The islander, like Christ, is seeking perfection on earth and he must also die at the end of the story, because on this earth 'perfection' cannot be realised. Only in the realms of eternity and infinity, can this perfection be realised and obtained.

Let me know what you think of these ideas. I just through them out there for debate.