D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

Hello Everyone It is me, again! Seems I thought about posting more text; then bingo - about 6 or more new posts came in concerning this present text. Ok, so rather then feel bogged down myself responding to each and every one of those, I simply read them all and pretty much agree with the conclusions you all came up with and I think now basically, we all agree.

I too do not see the scene with Severn and the little child as sexual; I think everything mentioned is quite natural to a 3 yr old. They can be very precocious and a little naughtly at times and they can be argumentive at that age and stubborn; especially about going to bed; I did not see anything that unusual or deviant about her behavior, only perhaps the licking kiss, which also was just a smarty kind of gesture that some kids will pull; it is not that unusual. I think Severn, if anything knew it was not nice as seen from the adult perspective and so he discouraged the child from continuing. He could think she was imitating adults and thus shedding her babyhood and her pure innocense, also. But 'sexual tension' between them? This I do not see at all; so everyone can 'hit me over the head with a book', as Antiquarian said.

I also have an opinion on the sorrow part. I don't think it has a thing to do with Kate. They were not involved at all, I don't see how they could have been. It is not indicated or even implied in the story. I think, that since Lawrence wrote this story at a time he was feeling a lot of personal sorrow in his own life he is speaking about Severn's past sorrows, which we are never allowed assess to in this story. Sorrow is just a general term here to group any sorrows he may have felt in the past, such as Lawrence had experienced himself not long before this story took form in his mind.

Other than that I think all of you have good ideas on this story and I fairly agree with most of what you all have said and expounded on or changed through the course of the discussion so far. I like the undercurrents of suggestion of things to come later on; but I do think we need to stop ourselves from going too far into analysising every tiny bit and turning things into allegory that just are not quite developed as such. This is an early Lawrence work, afterall.
I also am ambiguous about the title and just who that applies to. I tend to think of it as both men at the end of the story; but we can wait till that part and explore the idea more indepth.


So, I guess it would be a good time now to post more text and move on. I really can't think of anything more to add to this part; can any of you? When you all give me the word I will post the next part of the text.

Yes, I am ready now for the next part of the text if everyone else is

DM, why are you being so agreeable?:lol: It's kind of frightening to me. Anyway, thanks for saying we can progress; I would think everyone else is ready as well so I will post it now:
Yay - I want to move on, so we can progress with the main interaction between the adults. The portion below is just of Severn and Mrs. Thomas alone in the room.

The Next Part of the Text

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It was still not quite dark; the clouds had opened slightly. The young man flung himself into an arm-chair, with a volume of French verse. He read one lyric, then he lay still.

"What, all in the dark!" exclaimed Mrs. Thomas, coming in. "And reading by this light." She rebuked him with timid affectionateness. Then, glancing at his white-flannelled limbs sprawled out in the gloom, she went to the door. There she turned her back to him, looking out.

"Don't these flags smell strongly in the evening?" she said at length.
He replied with a few lines of the French he had been reading.

She did not understand. There was a peculiar silence.

"A peculiar, brutal, carnal scent, iris," he drawled at length. "Isn't it?"
She laughed shortly, saying: "Eh, I don't know about that."
"It is," he asserted calmly.

He rose from his chair, went to stand beside her at the door.
There was a great sheaf of yellow iris near the window. Farther off, in the last twilight, a gang of enormous poppies balanced and flapped their gold-scarlet, which even the darkness could not quite put out.

"We ought to be feeling very sad," she said after a while.
"Why?" he asked.
"Well--isn't it Kate's last night?" she said, slightly mocking.
"She's a tartar, Kate," he said.
"Oh, she's too rude, she is really! The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence--"
"The things I do?" he asked.
"Oh no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." Mrs. Thomas sounded very much incensed.
"Poor Kate, she'll have to lower her key," said Severn.
"Indeed she will, and a good thing too."

There was silence again.

"It's lightning," he said at last.
"Where?" she asked, with a suddenness that surprised him. She turned, met his eyes for a second. He sank his head, abashed.
"Over there in the north-east," he said, keeping his face from her. She watched his hand rather than the sky.
"Oh," she said uninterestedly.
"The storm will wheel round, you'll see," he said.
"I hope it wheels the other way, then."
"Well, it won't. You don't like lightning, do you? You'd even have to take refuge with Kate if I weren't here."
She laughed quietly at his irony.
"No," she said, quite bitterly. "Mr. Thomas is never in when he's wanted."
"Well, as he won't be urgently required, we'll acquit him, eh?"

At that moment a white flash fell across the blackness. They looked at each other, laughing. The thunder came broken and hesitatingly.
"I think we'll shut the door," said Mrs. Thomas, in normal, sufficiently distant tones. A strong woman, she locked and bolted the stiff fastenings easily. Severn pressed on the light. Mrs. Thomas noticed the untidiness of the room. She rang, and presently Kate appeared.

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Interesting to note: there is the mention of two flowers in this section and they both seem to have significance to me - the red poppies again and flags or iris'. Lawrence knew and loved his flowers and plants! It is one aspect of L's writing I truly enjoy.

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He rose from his chair, went to stand beside her at the door.
There was a great sheaf of yellow iris near the window. Farther off, in the last twilight, a gang of enormous poppies balanced and flapped their gold-scarlet, which even the darkness could not quite put out.

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Interesting, that the iris are yellow and the poppies are, not merely decribed as red or scarlet, but 'gold-scarlet', isn't it Antiquarian? You picked up on these yellow/gold references and their significance before. Also, I would say the gold/yellow would relate directly to the sun. The sun to L, was always a good thing.

This passage with the light and dark, being mentioned often, is also a good indication of opposites and contrast. It may also mimic the oncoming scene with the two men so much in contrast; Severn the light figure and the husband the dark figure. Then the very fight itself, is forshadowed here, in the flashes of the lightening and the contrast of light and darkness. Also, the very nature of lightening/thunder storms evoke a kind of hostility and agressiveness. As with Severn who is normally low key, will also express pent up hostility (as the storms electricity discharges it's energy) near the end of the story.

I will leave the rest up to all of your. I don't have time for futher comments now. I have to get ready to go out.

The first detail that seems important in this section is Severn reading. This later becomes a signal to the reader of the wife's affection. During the argument between Severn and the husband, the wife can be seen alternatively reading and stitching. When she reads it's an indication that she's supporting Severn, and as she stitches she takes her husbands side.

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"What, all in the dark!" exclaimed Mrs. Thomas, coming in. "And reading by this light." She rebuked him with timid affectionateness. Then, glancing at his white-flannelled limbs sprawled out in the gloom, she went to the door. There she turned her back to him, looking out.

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Here it feels as if Mrs. Thomas, is almost being motherly to Severn, she scolds him becasue he is reading in poor light. Like one might do with a child.

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"Don't these flags smell strongly in the evening?" she said at length.
He replied with a few lines of the French he had been reading.

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I was a bit confused when I first read this, is flag a type of flower?

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"A peculiar, brutal, carnal scent, iris," he drawled at length. "Isn't it?"
She laughed shortly, saying: "Eh, I don't know about that."
"It is," he asserted calmly.

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The use of the words here seems to refelct the events about to happen in the house, with the use of "peculiar" "brutal" and "carnal"

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"We ought to be feeling very sad," she said after a while.
"Why?" he asked.
"Well--isn't it Kate's last night?" she said, slightly mocking.
"She's a tartar, Kate," he said.
"Oh, she's too rude, she is really! The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence--"
"The things I do?" he asked.
"Oh no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." Mrs. Thomas sounded very much incensed.
"Poor Kate, she'll have to lower her key," said Severn.
"Indeed she will, and a good thing too."

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Though I still do not think Severn agreed with letting Kate go, and I think a part of him did feel for her, here he seems to be moking her along with Mrs. Thomas, though later he becomes angery at Mrs. Thomas for her treatment of Kate, but he seems as if he does let his opinions be dicated by others, and just gets swept along with other people.

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"Oh, she's too rude, she is really! The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence--"
"The things I do?" he asked.
"Oh no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." Mrs. Thomas

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I found this currious and wondered what was meant by it, when first she says that Kate is critical of Severn, but than quickly changes, and says it is instead her.

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"Oh, she's too rude, she is really! The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence--"
"The things I do?" he asked.
"Oh no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." Mrs. Thomas

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I found this currious and wondered what was meant by it, when first she says that Kate is critical of Severn, but than quickly changes, and says it is instead her.

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Am a bit puzzled here as well. Maybe Mrs. Thomas is implying plain sarcasm in her later sentence? And well, what kind of things that Severn does, Kate has a problem with? I think there are so many questions about Severn that we can not help but ponder about...

Quote by Quark

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The first detail that seems important in this section is Severn reading. This later becomes a signal to the reader of the wife's affection. During the argument between Severn and the husband, the wife can be seen alternatively reading and stitching. When she reads it's an indication that she's supporting Severn, and as she stitches she takes her husbands side.

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Who says? :lol: I am just kidding with you, Quark! Well, it might be one idea, but I am not sure about it. Seemed interesting to me at first but now I wonder how the stitching relates to her husband. Can you explain just what you are thinking on that score?

Quote by Dark Muse

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Here it feels as if Mrs. Thomas, is almost being motherly to Severn, she scolds him becasue he is reading in poor light. Like one might do with a child.

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Good observation. I thought she was also and seemed to me that Severn was rather in her favor in this way. She seemed to like to mother him and he liked it as well.

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I was a bit confused when I first read this, is flag a type of flower?

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As Antiquarian has pointed out that is the old-fashioned name for an iris. My mother used to call them flags all the time; my grandmother did as well.

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The use of the words here seems to refelct the events about to happen in the house, with the use of "peculiar" "brutal" and "carnal"

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Well 'carnal' means: 1. of the flesh; material; worldly. 2. sensual. Pair that up with the words peculiar and brutal and I am not sure what to think accept that carnal can be base and brutal at times I suppose. I do think this foreshadows the events to happen in the house this evening.

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Though I still do not think Severn agreed with letting Kate go, and I think a part of him did feel for her, here he seems to be mocking her along with Mrs. Thomas, though later he becomes angery at Mrs. Thomas for her treatment of Kate, but he seems as if he does let his opinions be dicated by others, and just gets swept along with other people.

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I never have seen Severn as actually mocking Kate in any way. He may say a few things about her in a joking sort of way but never vicious or mocking. I see mocking as much more intense like ridiculing someone. I just don't see this in Severn's makeup or manor. He simply states 'she's a tartar'; this is a common older expression; I have heard my mother use it countless times. I don't know the exact definition of it but I never heard someone say it in a tone of mockery. I think, most likely the two woman clashed and so Kate stood her ground; she stood up for her rights and did not let the other woman push her around; therefore Severn is stating that 'she's a tartar'.

Quote by Pensive

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Originally Posted by Pensive

Am a bit puzzled here as well. Maybe Mrs. Thomas is implying plain sarcasm in her later sentence? And well, what kind of things that Severn does, Kate has a problem with? I think there are so many questions about Severn that we can not help but ponder about...

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Hi Pensive, good to see you here again. Sorry you are puzzled. I do think Mrs. Thomas is implying sarcasm quite a bit in this conversation between Severn and herself. I don't think we will ever know what kind of things; I doubt they are very serious, probably just petty things that people living in close proximity run up against all the time. We may end up pondering much about Severn, because the story is a short one and doesn't provide much information about him to us; only what is truly necessary to the plot and the interaction of the characters.


Quotes by Antiquarian

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

A "flag" is just an old-fashioned word for an iris. They are one and the same, though some people called wild iris only flags. Obviously, in this story they're referring to yellow iris, and the poppies are gold-scarlet, so we're still dealing with yellow/gold flowers, though all the poppies I've seen are scarlet. No, come to think of it, I've seen pink ones. I guess they come in many colors, like iris. Scarlet flowers are coming into play now, too, and red signifies passion.

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Yellow iris are a bit unusual, aren't they? Maybe they are more abundant in England and maybe they smell there stronger than they do here. I will have to check that out and see if they do indeed have any odor. I think mine are done blooming now. I think poppies can indeed come in various colors but here he does say they are scarlet-gold; interesting. Yes, the scarlet flowers do seem to suggest passion to Lawrence and would apply to this story. They only hint at passion that could exist if unguarded or acted upon by Mrs. Thomas or Severn.

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But the iris have a strong scent that Edward describes as peculiar, brutal, and carnal. I never knew them to have any scent at all. I wonder why he thinks that? Foreshadowing of the fight to come? Then why yellow iris?

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Antiquarian, I think that is foreshadowing but I don't know why the yellow color either.

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Now, the subtext comes into play as Gertie teases Edward about Kate leaving. Obviously Kate has criticized Gertie, but not Edward. It's obvious to me that Gertie is also jealous of Kate and afraid Edward may come to establish some kind of close relationship with her.

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I would agree with that. Seems like a reasonable explaination.

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"We ought to be feeling very sad...." (meaning they really shouldn't be)

"Why?" (Edward is not all that sad)

"Well - isn't it Kate's last night?" (Gertie is mocking Edward)

"The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence-" (Obviously, it's not the things Edward does LOL)

"The things I do?" (Edward knows Kate doesn't become upset with him.)

"Oh, no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." (Now, Gertie admits that it's she with whom Kate finds fault.)

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Thanks for breaking this down sentence by sentence, Anti; that is pretty much how I view it, also. I don't know how sad Edward is though. I don't think he is happy she is leaving but not torn appart by it either. I think Mrs. Thomas has a very sardonic way of speaking. She is being kind of snide in my opinion.

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I supposed the approaching thunderstorm presages the fight to come, but right now, Edward makes the observation that it's still a ways off. And Gertie makes a point of saying that Mr. Thomas is never home when he's wanted. She doesn't say needed, but wanted.

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True, she does make a point of his not being home and she does use the work 'wanted' and not needed. Yes, the thunderstorm does suggest the human conflict to come. That builts, just like the approaching storm.


Did you notice how the boys are missing again? All four of us women (the faithful) have posted but where are the men? They are such slowpokes all the time. They are, no doubt absorbed in the Aeneid or some other thread. After they post some comments I will post more of the story - keep it moving right along....

Wait, I take it back, Quark did post a few lines but where is our tried and true L fan, our beloved Virgil?

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Originally Posted by Janine

I never have seen Severn as actually mocking Kate in any way. He may say a few things about her in a joking sort of way but never vicious or mocking. I see mocking as much more intense like ridiculing someone. I just don't see this in Severn's makeup or manor. He simply states 'she's a tartar'; this is a common older expression; I have heard my mother use it countless times. I don't know the exact definition of it but I never heard someone say it in a tone of mockery. I think, most likely the two woman clashed and so Kate stood her ground; she stood up for her rights and did not let the other woman push her around; therefore Severn is stating that 'she's a tartar'.

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To me it felt as if he was mocking her along with Mrs. Thomas, here becasue he knows that is more or less what she would exepct or want. She would probably grow angery with him if he acutally tried and defend Kate to her.

A tartar is a person of irritable or violent temper

Also when he says

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"Poor Kate, she'll have to lower her key," said Severn.

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He seems almost to be agreeing with Mrs. Thomas here, and suggesting that Kate is in the wrong in someway for the way she acts, inspite of what he later thinks to himself.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

To me it felt as if he was mocking her along with Mrs. Thomas, here becasue he knows that is more or less what she would exepct or want. She would probably grow angery with him if he acutally tried and defend Kate to her.

A tartar is a person of irritable or violent temper

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Well, of the two I think the first might fit her but not the second. Where exactly did you get this definition? I could not find it in my dictionary, but forgot to look online. I get the sense that Kate might be headstrong or fiesty, but not of a 'violent temper'; after all she plays reverie when she breaks up the fight with Severn and Thomas.

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He seems almost to be agreeing with Mrs. Thomas here, and suggesting that Kate is in the wrong in someway for the way she acts, inspite of what he later thinks to himself.

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This part might be true, but I still find fault with that word 'mock'. It really seems to overstate the case for me. I looked the word up in the dictionary online, as a verb:

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Main Entry:
1mock
Pronunciation:
\ˈmäk, ˈmȯk\
Function:
verb
Etymology:
Middle English, from moker
Date:
15th century
transitive verb1: to treat with contempt or ridicule : DERIDE2: to disappoint the hopes of3: DEFY, CHALLENGE4 a: to imitate (as a mannerism) closely : MIMIC b: to mimic in sport or derisionintransitive verb

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Then I looked up 'ridicule' as a verb:

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Main Entry:
2ridicule
Function:
transitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
ridiculed; ridicul•ing
Date:
circa 1700
: to make fun of
— rid•i•cul•er noun
synonyms RIDICULE, DERIDE, MOCK, TAUNT mean to make an object of laughter of. RIDICULE implies a deliberate often malicious belittling <consistently ridiculed everything she said>. DERIDE suggests contemptuous and often bitter ridicule <derided their efforts to start their own business>. MOCK implies scorn often ironically expressed as by mimicry or sham deference <youngsters began to mock the helpless wino>. TAUNT suggests jeeringly provoking insult or challenge <hometown fans taunted the visiting team>.

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I don't get the sense of ridicule here or of mocking; I get more a sense of discussing and criticising, but not mocking her. There is some sarcasm, but I don't think that adds up to mocking either.

I found my definition in my old websters dictionary

And I always thought it was just a slang type expression.

I looked online, but could not come up with anything except 'cream of tartar' -you should know about that Antiquarian, having attended cooking school. :lol:

My mother used to use the expression all the time. The way she used it it was not really mocking, more like poking fun or stating the person was a bit precocious or difficult to get along with. From what I have seen so far in the story, concerning the temperment of Mrs. Thomas, I think she is the one who would be hard to get along with. I see her more as the tartar. It is kind of ironic.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

The use of the words here seems to refelct the events about to happen in the house, with the use of "peculiar" "brutal" and "carnal"

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That is a rather unusual way to describe flowers or even just the aroma of flowers, but i do think, like others have mentioned, that it presages thigs to come.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

But the iris have a strong scent that Edward describes as peculiar, brutal, and carnal. I never knew them to have any scent at all. I wonder why he thinks that? Foreshadowing of the fight to come? Then why yellow iris?

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I don't recall smelling irises, so i can't say. But I remember from Odor of the Chysanthums that Mums from my experience also don't give off any scent. But the story is based on it. I don't know if they're just different in England.

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Now, the subtext comes into play as Gertie teases Edward about Kate leaving. Obviously Kate has criticized Gertie, but not Edward. It's obvious to me that Gertie is also jealous of Kate and afraid Edward may come to establish some kind of close relationship with her.

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Now I hope people will agree with me and see the sexual tension between Severn and Gertie. Do you think Gertie is letting Kate go because she feels jealous of Severn or Mr. Thomas?

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"We ought to be feeling very sad...." (meaning they really shouldn't be)

"Why?" (Edward is not all that sad)

"Well - isn't it Kate's last night?" (Gertie is mocking Edward)

"The way she criticises the things you do, and her insolence-" (Obviously, it's not the things Edward does LOL)

"The things I do?" (Edward knows Kate doesn't become upset with him.)

"Oh, no; you can't do anything wrong. It's the things I do." (Now, Gertie admits that it's she with whom Kate finds fault.)

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I like that kind of analysis too. Very good Anti. As to whether mock is too strong a word, perhpas tease is more accurate.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

A tartar is a person of irritable or violent temper

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I think that's what's meant by the word. Kate seems like a passionate person who could be Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know. :p :lol:

When they are alone together with the storm raging outside, it says that they were no longer afraid of the storm but of each other, and Severn is thinking:

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There was a pain in his chest that made him pant, and an involuntary tension in his arms, as if he must press someone to his breast. But that idea that this someone was Mrs. Thomas would have shocked him too much had he formed it. His passion had run on sonconcsiously, till now it had come to such a pitch it must drag his concious soul into allegiance. This, however, would probably never happen; he would not yeild allegiance and blind emotion, in this direction, could not carry him alone.

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Here he seems to clearly express some sort of physcial desire towrd Mrs. Thomas, only his thinking mind refuses to give into it, and he resists the temptation, but he is tempeted by her.

I was just using a quote from the text to illustarte what I think is an example of sexual tension within the story between Severn and Mrs. Thomas.

It is hard to effectively discuss ideas within a story if one can only go in chronolgicial order without using context within the story from elsewhere to help support a point.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Edit - How did those quotes get in my post? I don't even know how to put two in or I would have done so. LOL As I've said, I do see some sexual tension later, but not quite yet, so I'm not being quite as disagreeable as I might have first appeared. LOL

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Antiquarian, Those quotes go in automatically, when you click on someone's post to respond. Those are from Dark Muse. This brings up a good point. I have been reading the posts, sort of taking a backseat this time to see what progresses; and to be honest with you all, I see a lot of going around in circles. I really can't get into all this debating and what seems to me at times as bickering or nitpicking about the tiny details, because to be honest again, I find that usually I can't make sense out of it all, when the posts keeps changing so rapidly, along with individuals opinions. I wish I could. I probably need to just copy out posts and take them offline and take what I wish to respond to. I think that Quark made mention of this in the other thread. He said he only responded to a few from each person.

Anyway, it would be helpful, Antiquarian, if you could use the quote system when you are posting. I have the worst time reading your posts, I have to be honest with you, because everything seems to run together - italics are hard for me to see and read since I have bifocals (you know, getting old); I actually take my glasses off and sit close to read the screen. If you don't know how to do the quotes, maybe ask Logos or Scher. I can help, also. I really do wish to read your posts and not get confused. I know you have some good things to add.

I guess I am really tired out and a little crouchy myself today. I just read all the posts and before I post the next section of the text, I would like to look up a few things in my books and post some ideas on what I find or what I think at this point; this might give you all further insight into the story; since these characters were based on some true people in Lawrence's young life and a family he lived with. I do tend to go with Virgil and DM on the idea that there is sexual tension exisiting between Gertie and Edward as the sit in the room together alone. I will explain later on. Everyone keeps giving their opinions on this idea, but I don't see a lot of backup. I did see that DM posted some of the text and she did indeed, point out phrases that indicated 'sexual tension' or at least 'attraction'. I think it is always good to quote the text to backup an opinion. As we have seen in the past, so many times even words or phrases are miscontrued. I read somewhere that Lawrence was brutally misunderstood in his time and now scholars look on his work in a whole new light; they are finally beginning to know his true meanings. I believe it. In fact, often texts were so cut down by his publishers that they do indeed lack something to make the meaning totally clear to us. I heard some have been recovered and now they are published as L would have intended them to be read.

I will be back soon to post some idea before we progress on with the next part of the story text.

I am glad to see you here, Virgil. I wondered if you read my post #2294.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

And Mrs. Thomas was sewing, not reading, Quark.

Something in his (Edward Severn's) lithe, vigorous balance, so alert and white, and independent, caused Mrs. Thomas to glance at him from her sewing.

Mrs. Thomas sat at the table, near him, sewing.

Severn listened to the snap of her needle....

I think it would have been a good idea to have the shifting loyalties coincide with sewing and reading, but they don't. At least not yet. Or, maybe Quark meant Mrs. Thomas is baiting Edward when she's sewing and baiting her husband when she's reading. I can see that. Is that what you mean, Quark, because if it is, then I think it holds up. I have to look through the story, but I think so.

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I'll explain it better this time. Sometimes when I write these posts I'm doing it in between other things I'm trying to do. I have to speed through some idea that I'm sure really isn't clear and needs much support, but I don't have the time to write a long post. Now that I'm free for a couple hours I can say this a bit better.

First, I should point out that she is reading later on when her husband enters the room. Lawrence sneaks this detail in. It's easy to miss, but it's there. It's also an important signal to the reader of Gertie's allegiance--that's probably a poor word, but I think everyone knows what I mean. Gertie shifts between two activities which correspond to each relationship she has. Initially, before the husband walks into the scene Gertie indicates to Severn that she's uncomfortable with her relationship toward Severn. She has qualms about entertaining another man when she's already married. Lawrence has Gertie stitch to show the wife thinking about her husband. I hope Janine doesn't mind, but to make this point I have to post a section of the story. Here's the part with her stitching:

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She made a helpless gesture with her hand. He was watching her closely. She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered; she was eight years older than he. He smiled in a strange, alert fashion, like a man who feels in jeopardy. She bent over her work, stitching nervously. There was a silence in which neither of them could breathe freely.

Presently a bigger flash than usual whitened through the yellow lamplight. Both glanced at the window, then at each other. For a moment it was a look of greeting; then his eyes dilated to a smile, wide with recklessness. He felt her waver, lose her composure, become incoherent. Seeing the faint helplessness of coming tears, he felt his heart thud to a crisis. She had her face at her sewing.

Severn sank in his chair, half suffocated by the beating of his heart. Yet, time after time, as the flashes came, they looked at each other, till in the end they both were panting, and afraid, not of the lightning but of themselves and of each other.

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Not only does Lawrence connect the sewing with Gertie's marrital thoughts, but the action itself has long been considered a symbol for faithfulness and domesticity (think of Penelope at the loom in the Odyssey).

Eventually, though, the perspective changes. We see the room from the husband's view, and what he sees are two people reading. The reading shows their solidarity against him, and it makes him feel like an outsider.

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He did not speak to Severn nor Severn to him. Although as a rule the two men were very friendly, there came these times when, for no reason whatever, they were sullenly hostile. Thomas sat down heavily, and reached his bottle of beer. His hands were thick, and in their movement rudimentary. Severn watched the thick fingers grasp the drinking-glass as if it were a treacherous enemy.

"Have you had supper, Gertie?" he asked, in tones that sounded like an insult. He could not bear that these two should sit reading as if he did not exist.

"Yes," she replied, looking up at him in impatient surprise. "It's late enough." Then she buried herself again in her book.

Severn ducked low and grinned. Thomas swallowed a mouthful of beer.

"I wish you could answer my questions, Gertie, without superfluous detail," he said nastily, thrusting out his chin at her as if cross-examining.

"Oh," she said indifferently, not looking up. "Wasn't my answer right, then?"

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I brought this up because we see Severn reading in the part that Janine quoted.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

"Yet all the storms are a fair way off. Not one near enough to touch us."

I certainly don't see that as sexual tension, but as foreshadowing of the fight to come.

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That is foreshadowing for the fight. Also, we should remember that there are two storms. One for Severn and the husband, and the other is for Gertie and Kate.

Antiquarian,
To use quotes just do the following: place the word quote between two of these brackets [ ] preceeding the quoted text and /quote in the same brackets at the end of the quote (to end it). In the advanced menu, there is an icon at the top, that will do this for you automatically, if you first highlight the text you want quoted and then click on that icon. The icon looks like a piece of paper with writing on it. On my screen it is the one next to the envelop and the #. Now if you want to quote several people, you can copy and past their words right from their post; if you scroll down from this window (advanced) you will see their posts (from this page only.) If you have to go back to another page, then you have to copy and past into an offline word program and transport later, back to this window. I do that all the time. Then after, copying you just add the quote in brackets at the beginning and the end or use the icon in the menu (that makes it faster and easier).

This applies to Everyone: If you want to argue your case, you should back it up with text or even commentary. If you just want to bicker and disagree all the time, there is a big difference; look up the definitions online and you will see what I am getting at. Not long ago, Virgil said maybe we should just stick to one post for each individual opinion or argument on a point. That might be a good idea. We don't all have to all agree that there is or isn't sexual tension between Edward and Gertie; this is being too drawn out and keeping us from moving onward with the story. In the end, it is all personal opinion/interpretation; afterall, we are dealing with human beings interpretting other human beings; what would one expect? People are not easy to interpret. Yes, it would be dull, if there was no debate, but the debate does not have to dominate this discussion either; and that is what has been happening lately. It just plain gets tiresome after awhile. It is only the 10th of the month and I think we are pacing well with the text I posted so far. If you want I can post it more quickly. I may post more tonight.

I still do want to post some thoughts on what everyone is referring to as the 'sexual tension' part; but will wait till we get to that part of the text, because I really have not backed up my opinion. If you want to address it further, when we get to that part of the story, that is fine; but to go on about it for 3 or 4 pages is silly, and we won't change opinions, if they are set. The commentator I read, said that this is another example of a story by Lawrence, where there is a rival and three people are involved. I was therefore, assuming he meant the three main characters. I will post more on this later. It is dinnertime. Maybe we are getting hung up on the idea of 'sexual' tension. We could tone that down to say 'attraction', but not true 'sexual' attraction between them. I will have to re-read the text to see if that is more feasible. I am trying to be fair. It is not easy keeping these threads running smoothly.

To quote more than one messages in your post:

Click the http://www.online-literature.com/for...iquote_off.gif icon on each of the posts you want to quote, it looks like this if you've clicked it, http://www.online-literature.com/for...tiquote_on.gif then click Post Reply button, they show up automatically in text field.

I would like to remind everyone that this thread -nor any others on the Forum- is under the sole control of any one person or group. What is more, these discussions are not class lectures: each user is free to post in the manner and pace it suits them (as long as they are not breaking any Forum Rules).

Please do not try to impose your own personal wishes or preferences on others and respect their right to discuss any points they would like to deal with.

If you do not care about any points made, please also feel free to ignore them.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

To quote more than one messages in your post:

Click the http://www.online-literature.com/for...iquote_off.gif icon on each of the posts you want to quote, it looks like this if you've clicked it, http://www.online-literature.com/for...tiquote_on.gif then click Post Reply button, they show up automatically in text field.

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Scheherazade, my icon does not look like that, exactly. It is more like an piece of yellow paper with a little tail at the bottom and looks like text lines on the surface. Where did you find those icons? Mine is the fourth from the end (right side) at the top of my menu.

They appear at the right bottom corner of each post (not on the Advanced Reply page).

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

They appear at the right bottom corner of each post (not on the Advanced Reply page).

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Thanks, I have never noticed that on here. That will be a real time-saver.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Now, I suppose I'm being disagreeable, but I don't see sexual tension between Edward and Gertie. I do think she definitely wants to lure him into her trap, and in a way she does, when she gets him to carry down Kate's traveling trunk or box or whatever it is, but I don't see any interest on Edward's part. Just the opposite, in fact.

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First of all it's not being disagreeable if you disagree. That's ok. You don't need to apologize.

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I got the idea that Gertie was taunting his because Kate had shown an interest in him, but that Edward was interested in neither Kate nor Gertie.

Heck, I admit I could be wrong, but I just don't see it now. Don't feel it when I read the story, either

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I think the story is somewhat flawed in that Lawrence is not clear. I frankly see no point to the opening scene when Severn walks in the door, the garden of eden scene, and the sitting room scene. They are all unfocused, though individually well written. There are too many extraneous detals that can lead a reader into a direction but frankly undeveloped. Is there sexual tension? I can see how one can read it and how one cannot. I think Lawrence is to blame. In all fairness to Lawwrence, this story was only published posthumously.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I was just using a quote from the text to illustarte what I think is an example of sexual tension within the story between Severn and Mrs. Thomas.

It is hard to effectively discuss ideas within a story if one can only go in chronolgicial order without using context within the story from elsewhere to help support a point.

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I tend to read the story as having sexual tension too. Without the sexual tension it becomes unclear as to why Severn and Mr. Thomas fight. I tend to see the underlying fight as motivated by subconscious conflicts. But is there in the text? Anti may be right. We may be back filling that information. I don't think Lawrence did a good job here.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

To me, that's just foreshadowing of the fight that's to come, not indicative of sexual tension of any kind. I don't think this story's sexual at all. Edit: I do see a little sexual tension later, but not in the part we're discussing right now.

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Not sexual at all? Hmm, I think at the risk of me seeing phallices everywhere ;) I have to believe there are sexual references.

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Virgil and his phallic symbols have influenced people too much. LOL

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:lol: :lol: Perhaps I have. :D It must be my old age and how I've sublimated all sorts of desires that I now see in texts. :p :lol:

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I've already jumped ahead too much. I'm sorry, Janine. See? I'm nervous and edgy, but feeling no sexual tension. LOL Far from it.

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I'm old, what's your excuse. :p What's wrong with pulling in a detail from another part of the story if it helps explain a point on hand? It's ok. I don't ant to get too structured here. It's a discussion.

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Edit - How did those quotes get in my post? I don't even know how to put two in or I would have done so. LOL

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If you want to quote a post, just hit the post quote at the bottom and it comes up with the post written in your text box already in quotes. Just delete out what is extraneous. If you wish to quote more than one post at a time, then hit the " (italics) on the bottom of the first post and hit the Quote on the second. You can keep hitting the italics to include as many posts as you wish; just click the quote as the final post you wish to include. I hope that made sense. Play around with it Anti, you'll get the hang of it.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I am glad to see you here, Virgil. I wondered if you read my post #2294.

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I did read it. There was nothing for me to comment on one way or the other. I'll go back and recheck.

As to whether there is is sexual tension, undercurrent, or what ever you want to call, I have to take the description of the iris's scent as "brutal" and "carnal" as being projected in the scenes where subconscious dynamics are going on. There are two planes I think that Lawrence is after. If there is no sexual suggestion, I fail to see the significance of the scenes that lead to the fight.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

As to whether there is is sexual tension, undercurrent, or what ever you want to call, I have to take the description of the iris's scent as "brutal" and "carnal" as being projected in the scenes where subconscious dynamics are going on. There are two planes I think that Lawrence is after. If there is no sexual suggestion, I fail to see the significance of the scenes that lead to the fight.

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Virgil, I do totally agree with that. There would be no point in the ending of the story. The three main characters, Severn, Mrs. Thomas and Mr. Thomas all make up this triangle and set up this tension of a rival. We have seen this in other stories - even the last we read - in that there were 2 women and one man, even though we only saw one of the woman in the story; we felt the existence of the other - both competing for the man. In "Two Blue Birds" there was a situation of rivals with the two women again, one man. In "The Blind Man" there were two men in rivalry to the wife. Even though that one does not have sexual tension, there is rivalry and at the ending there is a sort of bonding between the two men, more so of course for Maurice than for Bertie.

I have to shut down - thunder and lightening.

Edit:I was able to come back online and am editing now. I am going to post the next part of the text with some comments I made. Hope everyone can add to them.


Next Part of Text:

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"Will you clear baby's things away?" she said, in the contemptuous tone of a hostile woman. Without answering, and in her superb, unhastening way, Kate began to gather up the small garments. Both women were aware of the observant, white figure of the man standing on the hearth. Severn balanced with a fine, easy poise, and smiled to himself, exulting a little to see the two women in this state of hostility. Kate moved about with bowed defiant head. Severn watched her curiously; he could not understand her. And she was leaving to-morrow. When she had gone out of the room, he remained still standing, thinking. Something in his lithe, vigorous balance, so alert, and white, and independent, caused Mrs. Thomas to glance at him from her sewing.

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I find these two decriptive phrases of interest - to describe Kate - (silently) she had a “superb, unhastening way”, and this one to describe Mrs. Thomas -speaking with the “contemptuous tone of a hostile woman” to Kate. Severn is noticed by each of the women, as the “observant, white figure”. Here again, the thought of him as a 'white' figure seems to be quite significant. It is also pointed out that Severn is “exulting a little to see the two woman in this state of hostility.” I was curious about the line “he could not understand her” in reference to Kate and her leaving. Seems when she leaves the room he is still pondering about it. Again his 'whiteness' is noticed, alone now by Mrs.Thomas in that last line, along with his 'independent way, his lithe, alert vigorous balance.'

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I’ll let the blinds down," he said, becoming aware that he was attracting attention.

"Thank you," she replied conventionally.

He let the lattice blinds down, then flung himself into his chair.

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Here the text points out that he is aware that he is attracting her attention.

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Mrs. Thomas sat at the table, near him, sewing. She was a good-looking woman, well made. She sat under the one light that was turned on. The lamp-shade was of red silk lined with yellow. She sat in the warm-gold light. There was established between the two a peculiar silence, like suspense, almost painful to each of them, yet which neither would break. Severn listened to the snap of her needle, looked from the movement of her hand to the window, where the lightning beat and fluttered through the lattice. The thunder was as yet far off.

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Strange that the one light that is turned on is over Mrs. Thomas, also that it is described like the poppies – yellow and red - the poppies were gold-red. I would think this would indicate a relationship between the passion of red and the flowers to Mrs. Thomas; or suggest this idea. It goes on to saying it is a “warm-gold light”. Now between the two in the room is a “peculiar silence, like suspense, almost painful to each of them, yet which neither would break”. Kind of like the suspense of the impending storm and the tension that imparts to the scene.

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"Look," he said, "at the lightning."

Mrs. Thomas started at the sound of his voice, and some of the colour went from her face. She turned to the window.

There, between the cracks of the Venetian blinds, came the white flare of lightning, then the dark. Several storms were in the sky. Scarcely had one sudden glare fluttered and palpitated out, than another covered the window with white. It dropped, and another flew up, beat like a moth for a moment, then vanished. Thunder met and overlapped; two battles were fought together in the sky.

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Why is the color going from her face and why did she start at his voice? Was it only the thought of the storm or more than that? I also noticed that snap of her sewing; that too seems to indicate something like the click in the oil lamp did in the last story. Maybe the snap is something like the far off thunder; a hint of something to come; it is just a thought on my part.

I like the contrast of the lightening to the darkness. I also, love the way the two storms are described, or several storms, and the 'overlapping' in the last line, which indicates 'two battles', mimicking the two battles in the house and their overlapping. That is brilliantly done/written. I like thunderstorms and the tension they impart, but if not too severe. One has to admit they hold a certain curiousity and an energy and are sometimes very beautiful; like untamed nature and furry.

Interesting also, is the line "another covered the window with white"...again white seems to be emphasised; I wonder if Severn, being seen so 'white', is like the lightening and will be so, when his temper finally flairs and he fights back at the husband. It is like the energy of a storm being released in that moment of the confrontation that will come; like lightening which is electricity being discharged. Also, as in "The Prussian Officer" there was a 'snap' or 'click' and then the violent action occured. This is why I thought of that snap of Mrs. Thomas' sewing and thought it might relate later to the fact that Severn himself snaps and looses control.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I find these two decriptive phrases of interest - to describe Kate - (silently) she had a “superb, unhastening way”, and this one to describe Mrs. Thomas -speaking with the “contemptuous tone of a hostile woman” to Kate. Severn is noticed by each of the women, as the “observant, white figure”. Here again, the thought of him as a 'white' figure seems to be quite significant. It is also pointed out that Severn is “exulting a little to see the two woman in this state of hostility.” I was curious about the line “he could not understand her” in reference to Kate and her leaving. Seems when she leaves the room he is still pondering about it. Again his 'whiteness' is noticed, alone now by Mrs.Thomas in that last line, along with his 'independent way, his lithe, alert vigorous balance.'

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Me and Virgil have already sort of touched upon this, but I felt this scene between the two women was a sort of minor reflection on what is later to occur with Severn and Mr. Thomas. I think it is also an indication of Mrs. Thomas's jealously. In the presence of Severn the two women act hostile too each other, while it points how aware of his presence the women were.

I think perhaps in part Severn does not understand just why Kate is acting in such a stubborn way, when she knows that such is going to cost her job. And perhaps he just does not understand the reasons behind her behavior.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Strange that the one light that is turned on is over Mrs. Thomas, also that it is described like the poppies – yellow and red - the poppies were gold-red. I would think this would indicate a relationship between the passion of red and the flowers to Mrs. Thomas; or suggest this idea. It goes on to saying it is a “warm-gold light”. Now between the two in the room is a “peculiar silence, like suspense, almost painful to each of them, yet which neither would break”. Kind of like the suspense of the impending storm and the tension that imparts to the scene.

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I think perhpas the light is turned upon her, to sort of put her in the spot light, as her figure is such a central figure, she seems to affect everything and everyone in the house, as in thier own way they all just sort of revolve around her. Her very pressence is enough to change the way others react to each other or to her.

Yes I think the red is meant to signify passion.

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There was established between the two a peculiar silence, like suspense, almost painful to each of them, yet which neither would break.

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This line does seem to signify that there is a tauntness within the air, that is just ready to snap at any moment and release itself.

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Severn listened to the snap of her needle, looked from the movement of her hand to the window, where the lightning beat and fluttered through the lattice. The thunder was as yet far off.

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I found this to be an odd description of the storm, as I do not know I can say I have ever found lignting to "flutter" Even through blinds, it usually comes in a flash. As well that idea of "fluttering" which is a gentle, graceful motion seems completely oppsisite to everything else within the story.

I wondered if there is menat to be some relation between the snap of the needle and the sound of the thunder.

It also seemed to me as if Severn was almost tuanting Mrs. Thomas in a way, as he constnatly keeps trying to draw her attention to the storm and telling her to look, when he knows she does not like it.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Why is the color going from her face and why did she start at his voice? Was it only the thought of the storm or more than that? I also noticed that snap of her sewing; that too seems to indicate something like the click in the oil lamp did in the last story. Maybe the snap is something like the far off thunder; a hint of something to come; it is just a thought on my part.

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I thought it was becasue of the storm as well as perhaps she was startled to suddnely have that silence between them to be broken.

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There, between the cracks of the Venetian blinds, came the white flare of lightning, then the dark. Several storms were in the sky. Scarcely had one sudden glare fluttered and palpitated out, than another covered the window with white. It dropped, and another flew up, beat like a moth for a moment, then vanished. Thunder met and overlapped; two battles were fought together in the sky.

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I loved this passage. I find it interesting, that above it said the lightening was "fluttering" but now here it comes as a flare. I felt that the "several storms in the sky" were also the many different conflicts within the house, as really within the house no one is completely happy wich each other, and all of the characters have little conflicts among them.

With the rising power of the storm it also seems to be indicating that someting is about ready to just break, and unlesash itself. Things are building up to the point of climax, where something will have to give.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I wondered if there is menat to be some relation between the snap of the needle and the sound of the thunder.

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I think there is. It scares the wife because it's a reminder her that her husband is about to come home and there will be a confrontation. The needlework is a similar symbol meant to indicate that she's thinking about her husband.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I don't find the story at all well crafted.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Is there sexual tension? I can see how one can read it and how one cannot. I think Lawrence is to blame. In all fairness to Lawwrence, this story was only published posthumously.

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You guys are funny. Lawrence is being subtle, and that's the only way he could write about their relationship. If he gave it away and told us unequivocally whether Severn and Gertie wanted an affair, then the reader would have to take sides during the dispute at the end. It would become a matter of choosing between marriage and infidelity. Instead, Lawrence blurs their relationship and makes it about the characters' vague longings versus the husband's harsh uprightness. I think this is why Lawrence doesn't just come out and tell you what's going on between Gertie and Severn.


Oh, and Janine I wanted to repeat your question about Severn's white outline. Why does Lawrence draw so much attention to Severn's shirt?

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Lawrence is telling us too much. He's giving us too much information. He's being heavy-handed in this story.

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Wait, what? Didn't you just post this:

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

While I don't see any real sexual tension in the story, I do think there's supposed to be sexual tension. I suppose, as an editor, I'm a more demanding reader than most people are.

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That made it sound like you were criticizing Lawrence for not making their relationship clear.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Me and Virgil have already sort of touched upon this, but I felt this scene between the two women was a sort of minor reflection on what is later to occur with Severn and Mr. Thomas. I think it is also an indication of Mrs. Thomas's jealously. In the presence of Severn the two women act hostile too each other, while it points how aware of his presence the women were.

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I agree, Dark Muse. This also matches up to ideas, I just read about rivalry in these early stories; also about Lawrence and unacted on passions. I will have to post some more information on that later on since I am going out soon. I checked out several biography books that mention this story and the family Lawrence lived with in Croydon and used as the model for the story. One part clearly shows Lawrence's feelings for the two children but mostly for the baby featured in this story and the account is totally innocent and sweet. He wrote two sweet stories about babies and he loved these kids to death.

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I think perhaps in part Severn does not understand just why Kate is acting in such a stubborn way, when she knows that such is going to cost her job. And perhaps he just does not understand the reasons behind her behavior.

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That sounds logical to me.

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I think perhaps the light is turned upon her, to sort of put her in the spot light, as her figure is such a central figure, she seems to affect everything and everyone in the house, as in thier own way they all just sort of revolve around her. Her very pressence is enough to change the way others react to each other or to her.

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I agree - it puts her in the center of the two conflicts. This is a good comment on your part and observation. The light and the color is an interesting device to use at this particular time in the story with the flashing/flickering white light on the blinds just suggesting the coming storms.

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Yes I think the red is meant to signify passion.

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I do, too. And 'passion' comes in many forms and disquises and one need to determine his own idea of just what passion signifies.

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This line does seem to signify that there is a tauntness within the air, that is just ready to snap at any moment and release itself.

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I agree. Did you read "The Prussian Officer" , DM? Often Michael Black brings up that 'click' that occurs in that story, just prior to the outbreak of aggression or violence.

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I found this to be an odd description of the storm, as I do not know I can say I have ever found lignting to "flutter" Even through blinds, it usually comes in a flash. As well that idea of "fluttering" which is a gentle, graceful motion seems completely oppsisite to everything else within the story.

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I think it is perceived as a flutter because there are several storms so the lightening is overlapping. I have seen this happen before. Perhaps L is indicating that the storms approaching are gentle and graceful at first. It is later the real furry erupts as in the story.

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I wondered if there is meant to be some relation between the snap of the needle and the sound of the thunder.

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I think that is possible also, if heard far off.

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It also seemed to me as if Severn was almost tuanting Mrs. Thomas in a way, as he constnatly keeps trying to draw her attention to the storm and telling her to look, when he knows she does not like it.

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Teasing or taunting her playfully. It is like someone teasing about being afraid of a spider. I don't think he means it in a mean way at all. It indeed does draw attention to the storm, also foreshadowing the coming storm between the two men.

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I thought it was because of the storm as well as perhaps she was startled to suddnely have that silence between them to be broken.

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True - it could be part of each.

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I loved this passage. I find it interesting, that above it said the lightening was "fluttering" but now here it comes as a flare. I felt that the "several storms in the sky" were also the many different conflicts within the house, as really within the house no one is completely happy wich each other, and all of the characters have little conflicts among them.

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I loved that passage, too. Good observation, DM, and I think that is correct. It is true that no one seems truly happy; perhaps only the little child.

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With the rising power of the storm it also seems to be indicating that someting is about ready to just break, and unlesash itself. Things are building up to the point of climax, where something will have to give.

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I think that is correct and I think I said it also in my post, about the same way.


Sorry, I can't answer anymore posts now. I am going out. I am sure I won't be missed; I think I can answer some later on tonight.

I did read all of them; but I skimmed Quarks, sorry Mr. Q. I will have to put bits of Antiquarian's into an offline program, because to be quite honest, I can't make sense of it all without the quotes and with two edits, Anti. I am sorry about that. The bold is distracting as the main body of type - I guess those being your comments. Maybe if you email to a mod, she can help you find out how to solve this posting/quoting problem.
I often just take all posts offline and add my own quotes manually, like this [quote] at the beginning, and the second one, with the addition of the slash in front of the word, - like this /quote, but in brackets.

Quark, I will read your post better later on. Probably by then Virgil will arrive to post some comments, too. Be back later on.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

That's fine with me. I have trouble making sense of posts that use the quote thing so I can see where the opposite would be true. I had a lot of trouble trying to quote one of Virgil's posts this morning, so I don't think I'll use that anymore.

I tend to write like an editor, not a reader, so many people, unless they write or edit, too, have a problem with my posts. Just like the term "set piece" the other day. I probably shouldn't have used that term except in work.

You don't have to answer mine if you're short on time or just don't want to. I won't be offended at all. It's just a casual discussion. I think you should only answer what you want to answer.

I'm going out tonight, too, so I won't be able to check until later.

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I didn't say I would not answer it, Antiquarian. Your post was more complicated to answer than DM's and I have always tried to answer all or part of a person's post. I just need the time to place your post into my offline program and sort through what I wish to answer.

That is very true and you have emphasised if often; I don't have the expertise of being an editor or a writer, so I write my posts in a different style perhaps.

I don't even care to be a Lawrence 'scholar', but I have read much about this author; 3 biographies, many of the letters, and many commentaries about his various works and his stories; because that is pleasurable to me. When I don't know something, I try to research it, to find more insight into his intentions/his deeper meanings. That has always been my fascination with this author. To the best of my ability I try to share whatever additional information I find out about the story with all of you.

Enjoy your evening out! Must be cooler there now. It got some bit cooler here.

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Originally Posted by Quark

I think there is. It scares the wife because it's a reminder her that her husband is about to come home and there will be a confrontation. The needlework is a similar symbol meant to indicate that she's thinking about her husband.

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That is a good observation. Part of the tension in the air could relate to the ancipation of the return of Mr. Thomas, and her knowing that his coming will bring a confertation of some sort, as the needle work being a domestic activity and seen as a chore of a "good housewife" could indicate the husband.

Though It seems she really does not need to fear him as it seems she is the one who holds all the control, it could be she does not wish to have to have a confertation.

And though Severn and Mrs. Thomas do not acutally do anything, it could also be that they might feel "caught" at something becasue of the nature of thier thoughts, when he does "walk in on them"

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Obviously, Edward and Gertie have never engaged in anything even remotely like a sexual or romantic affair, though the storm and their being shut up together seems to have affected them momentarily, especially Edward. But he doesn't like it. He seems appalled by the very idea.

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I felt it was always a bit unclear just why Severn does seem to be so appalled by the idea. I cannot say I honestly felt it was because of any morality he felt in regards to engaging in an unfair, or any sort of fear of disloyalty toward Mr. Thomas. I just do not get that that is his reasoning for resistance.

But I wondered if it is the fact that he truly does not care for the kind of woman Mrs. Thomas is that repulses him at his physical attraction to her, or if in fact the idea of intimacy with women in general is repulsive to him and he is trying to suppress his natural urges.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

That is a good observation. Part of the tension in the air could relate to the ancipation of the return of Mr. Thomas, and her knowing that his coming will bring a confertation of some sort, as the needle work being a domestic activity and seen as a chore of a "good housewife" could indicate the husband.

Though It seems she really does not need to fear him as it seems she is the one who holds all the control, it could be she does not wish to have to have a confertation.

And though Severn and Mrs. Thomas do not acutally do anything, it could also be that they might feel "caught" at something becasue of the nature of thier thoughts, when he does "walk in on them"

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I would agree with all those thoughts, Dark Muse. I have to leave now to go out. Good job on both your posts! I will get to others later on.

Wow, I don't know how to reply to all. I'll do my best. Actually I don't have any specific points on that part of the text; these are responses to you points.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Men never bicker over anything but the affections of a woman? I don't know. I did think they do, but I'm not positive. LOL

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:lol: No they bicker over lots of things. Just look over my lit net fights. They are almost all against men I've noticed. I'm too much of a gentleman to fight with women. ;) But what else is implied in this story that they could be bickering over? I may be only seeing phallices again, but I only see a sexual tug of war. :D

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Edit - Well, I did try the multiple postings thing and it's a mess. I had to go back and put my replies in bold. This is why I don't like the thing.

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Oh I wish I could show you. It's really not hard. Oh well, whatever is easiest for you.

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I certainly think men can bicker over things other than the affections of a woman, and I can see a lot of points to this story other than sexual tension.

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Like what? I'm curious.

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I do think Lawrence wanted to insert sexual tension into this story, but like Virgil, I don't find the story at all well crafted.

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The sexual tension with Gertie is definitely there. Each scene is extremely well written. I just don't find the relationship between the scenes and the purpose of each scene clear.

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I see the story as more a domestic power struggle. Perhaps Lawrence wanted it to be more, and I can see where some people see more, but I feel like Virgil, if Lawrence did want more, then he failed in this story, and that's not a criticism because all the best writers fail at a story from time to time. It's natural and it's human. Lawrence became a writer of magnificent short stories, no doubt about that, but I don't think this one can be counted among the great ones. As Virgil said, it's too ambiguous, too unconnected.

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The question I would say is a struggle for what? But yes Lawrence leaves it (I believe, and perhaps I'm wrong) as a subconscious attraction.

[QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Quark

You guys are funny. Lawrence is being subtle, and that's the only way he could write about their relationship. If he gave it away and told us unequivocally whether Severn and Gertie wanted an affair, then the reader would have to take sides during the dispute at the end. It would become a matter of choosing between marriage and infidelity. Instead, Lawrence blurs their relationship and makes it about the characters' vague longings versus the husband's harsh uprightness. I think this is why Lawrence doesn't just come out and tell you what's going on between Gertie and Severn.

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Yes Quark I've been saying it was mostly on a subconscious level. See my comments in this post.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I have to disagree here. I don't think Lawrence was being subtle at all. Not in this story. I think he's being quite heavy-handed.

This is not subtle:

"Severn sank in his chair, half suffocated by the beating his his heart. Yet, time after time, as the flashes came, they looked at each other, till in the end they both were panting, and afraid, not of the lightning but of themselves and of each other."

(At this point, I agree that they find themselves attracted to each other.)

"He (Severn) was so much moved that he became conscious of his perturbation. "What the deuce is up?" he asked himself, wondering. At twenty-seven, he was quite chaste. Being highly civilised, he prized women for their intuition, and because of the dlicacy with which he could transfer to them his thoughts and feelings, without cumbrous argument. From this to a state of passion he could only proceed by fine gradations, and such a procedure he had never begun. Now he was startled, astonished, perturbed, yet still scarcely conscious of his whereabouts. There was a pain in his chest that made him pant, and an involuntary tension in his arms, as if he must press someone to his breast. But the idea that this someone was Mrs. Thomas would have shocked him too much had he formed it. His passion had run on subconsciously, till now it had come to such a pitch it must drag his conscious soul into allegiance. This, however, would probably never happen; he would not yeild allegiance, and blind emotion, in this direction, could not carry him alone."

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Yes I agree that is heavy handed. That is making my point exactly.

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Obviously, Edward and Gertie have never engaged in anything even remotely like a sexual or romantic affair, though the storm and their being shut up together seems to have affected them momentarily, especially Edward. But he doesn't like it. He seems appalled by the very idea.

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I agree, I don't think they've acted on their subconscious attractions.

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Originally Posted by Quark

That made it sound like you were criticizing Lawrence for not making their relationship clear.

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Hehehe. Anti I think you've switched positions. ;)

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I felt it was always a bit unclear just why Severn does seem to be so appalled by the idea. I cannot say I honestly felt it was because of any morality he felt in regards to engaging in an unfair, or any sort of fear of disloyalty toward Mr. Thomas. I just do not get that that is his reasoning for resistance.

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I think in several places the point is made that layers of civilization has been put onto the characters. Look, the central theme of the story is that below the layers of civilization (and that's the point of the religions in the story) a brutish, carnal root of humanity, even animalism, exists. That's why the men fight and the child is wild in a precivilized way, and the sexual attractions affect the characters. I was going to make this point later, but what the heck. ;)

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But I wondered if it is the fact that he truly does not care for the kind of woman Mrs. Thomas is that repulses him at his physical attraction to her, or if in fact the idea of intimacy with women in general is repulsive to him and he is trying to suppress his natural urges.

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Well, Mrs Thomas is a bit older, married with a child, strong built, even husky. That sounds just like Frieda. :D

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Wow, I don't know how to reply to all. I'll do my best. Actually I don't have any specific points on that part of the text; these are responses to you points.

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Wow, I am lost now. Admittedly, I don't know how to reply to any of this. I am so far behind now I doubt I can catch up. I will just go with the new posts, starting with yours.

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:lol: No they bicker over lots of things. Just look over my lit net fights.

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:lol: How true, how true! You did not get your name for nothing - the B,M, D one.;)

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They are almost all against men I've noticed. I'm too much of a gentleman to fight with women. ;) But what else is implied in this story that they could be bickering over? I may be only seeing phallices again, but I only see a sexual tug of war. :D

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I can buy part of that but gentleman could probably be changed to 'lady's man.';) :lol: I see the sexual tug of war quite clearly myself.

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The sexual tension with Gertie is definitely there. Each scene is extremely well written. I just don't find the relationship between the scenes and the purpose of each scene clear.

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I agree or at least sexual attraction as some point. I also think each scene is extremely well written. I have no qualms with the writing here. I don't see that it fails at all to express what is going on in the house.

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The question I would say is a struggle for what? But yes Lawrence leaves it (I believe, and perhaps I'm wrong) as a subconscious attraction.

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Doesn't he do that often though in his writing?

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Yes Quark I've been saying it was mostly on a subconscious level. See my comments in this post.

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Yes I agree that is heavy handed. That is making my point exactly.

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Could you explain what you mean by heavy handed. Is that another literary term I am not familiar with?

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I agree, I don't think they've acted on their subconscious attractions.

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I don't see any acting on the attraction at all; just thinking of the posibility of it. This is quite reminescent of Lawrence's play "The Widowing of Mrs. Holroyd". A younger male who is close friends with Mrs. Holroyd expresses his own sexual attraction towards her, completely to the surprise of the woman/wife in the story; perhaps subconsicously she realised it before but then it becomes conscious. In this story the opposite seems to be occurring and the male is wondering at the wife's remarks. It is interesting to me how Lawrence reversed that idea.

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Hehehe. Anti I think you've switched positions. ;)

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I would say a number of times now; that is partly why I am so confused.

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I think in several places the point is made that layers of civilization has been put onto the characters. Look, the central theme of the story is that below the layers of civilization (and that's the point of the religions in the story) a brutish, carnal root of humanity, even animalism, exists. That's why the men fight and the child is wild in a precivilized way, and the sexual attractions affect the characters. I was going to make this point later, but what the heck. ;)

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Virgil, I think those are interesting thoughts and intelligent and all posibilities. I am not totally sure of their validity but like I said it sounds possible. Maybe later you can expound on this idea. I can see what you are leading up to here and I think you are on the right track.

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Well, Mrs Thomas is a bit older, married with a child, strong built, even husky. That sounds just like Frieda. :D

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Where does the text say she is husky? Just curious. The woman who this character was fashioned after was Mrs. Jones, and not Frieda. You are so funny, Virgil, you are always thinking it is Frieda. Is that like your phallic symbol fetishes? You always picture Frieda also from her worst photos after she lived with L for many years. Her earlier photos show a rather pretty woman. I guess living with a genius is not easy.
Indeed, Mrs. Jones and Mr. Jones were a few years older than Lawrence, when he resided with them in Croydon. They even moved once and Lawrence moved with them. I don't think I ran across any physical description of Mrs. Jones, just that she was the mother of two young girls.

I will try to go back to Antiquarian's now and add on the new one. Also, I think Quark posted something. At least I will read all those.

Well, Antiquarian, asside from your last two posts, which I did not see until just now; I have been working on this post from the previous page (in my offline program). I really wish to post it; it took me considerable time. I didn't misconstrue your posts at all; I just needed the read them over again and time to answer. I was out most of the evening and got in late. I am aware that I use bold face type at times to accent certain key words or phrases; actually, Virgil began that method, way back in the second or third story.
I didn't mean anything unkind when i said that you could get help from a moderator. I have often asked them for help with formating and other tech problems. The fact, that your text in that one post, contained the failed quoting with a beige background and Virgil's text and then your bold parts (replies) with the difference in the bottom white area, made it very confusing, but I have worked it out offline. I just hope these quotes are correct as to who said what:

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I feel the story is very flawed, though amusing. Not only is Lawrence ambiguous, but he tells us far too much of the time how someone is thinking. If it's not clear how someone is thinking, then a writer needs to rewrite his work, not tack on an explanation.

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You should understand that all the stories we read for this thread cannot be as advanced as “The Horse-Dealer’s Daughter” and “The Witch a la Mode”. That last story was a hard act to follow. I don’t agree that this story is 'very flawed.' If it were, it would have no merit at all. I think it is an early story, just as Lawrence’s book “Sons and Lovers” is an early novel. Both were written around the same time period. Lawrence liked this short story very much and was quite disappointed it was not published when he submitted it, along with others that year he wrote it. Just because it was published later, does not take away it’s value. Many of the finest stories were not published back in that time period, because or censorship and other restricted attitudes. I almost feel this might have been the case with this story or a possibility. Lawrence called it a ‘wicked little story.’ Many of James Joyce’s stories in Dubliners were frowned on by the publishers; many publishers refused to publish them. It took years for him to have his book "Dubliners" published. The reason this story might have been rejected may have been the child licking Severn's face. I can see how that would be very distasteful in that era and very much misunderstood as to the meaning in this story.

I don’t see the unclear quality you are referring to Antiquarian; I don’t see it anymore so, in this story than other Lawrence stories we have read. I read the story several times now and I did not see anything unclear about it or anything more I needed to know to understand the story and especially to comprehend the ending.

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"Will you clear baby's things away," she said in the contemptuous tone of a hostile woman."

Contemptuous tone of a hostile woman should be evident, not explained.

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Well, since you have the MFA in Creative writing, can you enlighten me as to why? I don’t understand the rule of thumb here.

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I don't know when the story was written, but if it was a very early story, I can understand why it's unfocused and why it was not published during Lawrence's lifetime. Everything in a short story must related to everything else. In this story, it doesn't.

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How so? That sounds reasonable, but I fail to see what is not related. I don't see lack of focus either.

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I tend to read the story as having sexual tension too. Without the sexual tension it becomes unclear as to why Severn and Mr. Thomas fight. I tend to see the underlying fight as motivated by subconscious conflicts. But is there in the text? Anti may be right. We may be back filling that information. I don't think Lawrence did a good job here.

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Quote by Antiquarian

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If there's supposed to be sexual tension, I don't think Lawrence did a good job. I just read it as Mrs. Thomas becoming overwrought due to her fear of storms. I do think Edward has a momentary attraction to her, though, that upsets and scares him far more than any storm could. I don't see the fight later as being over the affections of Mrs. Thomas, but over which man is right.

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Not sexual at all? Hmm, I think at the risk of me seeing phallices everywhere I have to believe there are sexual references.

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I must be the only one thinks Lawrence did do a good job and he subtly set up this scene, with sexual tension, which the storm parellels in it’s own mounting tension, energy/electricity.

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:lol:Perhaps I have. It must be my old age and how I've sublimated all sorts of desires that I now see in texts.

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Yes, no doubt it is that old age creeping up on your Virgil! :lol: Next senility sets in. You will probably be distorting all kinds of crazy things by then.:lol:

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Well, you're not old. And I was joking about that, of course, Glad to read you've sublimated those desires, though. LOL

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Your are right, Antiquarian, he is not old, just ripe and has an overly active imagination oftimes!

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I'm old, what's your excuse. What's wrong with pulling in a detail from another part of the story if it helps explain a point on hand? It's ok. I don't want to get too structured here. It's a discussion.

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Nothing that I can see.

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I'm a fiction editor, primarily of short stories. That's my excuse. LOL Seriously, because it hasn't happened yet. We can't try to justify what happens on page three with something that doesn't occur until page nine. We can, of course, but the justification doesn't hold up in most cases, especially not in a linear story. I do think Edward becomes momentarily attracted to Gertie, but only momentarily and it's not something I would call sexual tension. Others do, I don't, which is fine, really. But you're right. I'ts just a casual discussion, not a classroom lecture.

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I pass….I haven’t the insight and the knowledge of a writer, let along the writing genius of Lawrence. I don’t see the attraction as momentary; undoubtably it has been latent in a subconscious way for sometime. Lawrence is a writer well known for his use of delving into the mind and the individual’s subconscious; especially, when it comes to interaction between man and woman; man and man.

Antiquarian, have you posted any of your short stories yet in your blog? I would like to read some. My library had a volume of William Trevor’s stories, so I took it out today to sample a few. Do you write like Trevor? I will be anxious to read some. I read some of the other Lit Net members stories, including our own Virgil’s. His were quite good; but I like his poetry best.


Quote by Antiquarian

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Well, I hope this one turns out right or it's going to look like you're contradicting yourself all over the place, Virgil. LOL As you can see, it didn't turn out right, so I had to put my responses in bold, which I don't like to do.

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Yes, and they are overwhelming to me that way; also the bold text feels like you are emphasizing everything (sort of like raising your voice). It helps me to paste it into this Microsoft Word program (offline) and convert the text, but it takes me a long time to do. I hope you can solve the problem eventually. I would think you would have run up against this sort of formatting in editing at your job.

Originally Posted by Virgil

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As to whether there is is sexual tension, undercurrent, or what ever you want to call, I have to take the description of the iris's scent as "brutal" and "carnal" as being projected in the scenes where subconscious dynamics are going on. There are two planes I think that Lawrence is after. If there is no sexual suggestion, I fail to see the significance of the scenes that lead to the fight.

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I agree with what you say here, Virgil; especially with the use of the words “brutal” and “carnal”. I do think some iris have a scent; not that pleasant but a scent – maybe the scent is brutal and carnal, in a primitive sense.[/quote]

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Men never bicker over anything but the affections of a woman? I don't know. I did think they do, but I'm not positive. LOL

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Virgil does in some threads! :lol:

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Edit - Well, I did try the multiple postings thing and it's a mess. I had to go back and put my replies in bold. This is why I don't like the thing.

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Sorry you had no success. Oh well…


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While I don't see any real sexual tension in the story, I do think there's supposed to be sexual tension. I suppose, as an editor, I'm a more demanding reader than most people are. Editors read to find mistakes and I found quite a few surprising ones in this story, though I also found it amusing.

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You do seem to be a more demanding reader, than most of us. You seem to expect a lot out of the author, even though at the time he was young and not as experienced, as he was later on. I guess we all could find mistakes in anything, if we looked hard enough for them. I didn’t know that was our task here. As you said before, this is a casual discussion. I take the work for what it is worth. I can’t be that strict or demanding about it and pick apart Lawrence’s writing, work by word. Maybe you could make a list of parts or sentences that annoyed you or you felt were written incorrectly; just to satisfy yourself. I make notes often myself for my own benefit.

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I do think the part that says: ...two battles were fought together in the sky is supposed to signify Edward's attraction to Gertie because of her fear and momentary vulnerabilty and Edward's desire not be attracted to Gertie.

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I can go with that idea. I think Lawrence mentioned even more than two storms brewing outside. That would make sense to the story actually.

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Previously, I had agreed with Quark that the two battles were Edward/Mr. Thomas and Gertie/Kate, but Kate's role is now so extraneous, I believe the two battles are the battle in Edward over his attraction to Mrs. Thomas and his desire not to be attracted. And I do see it as that - a momentary attraction to Mrs. Thomas that he doesn't want to admit to himself, but if others want to call it sexual tension, then I'm not arguing with them. People see things how they see them for many reasons and all are valid. We can't all be right all the time, but all opinions can always be valid.

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I agree with this part.

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I certainly think men can bicker over things other than the affections of a woman, and I can see a lot of points to this story other than sexual tension.

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There probably are many other points besides sexual tension in the story. No one said there weren’t.

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Edward enjoys seeing Kate and Gertie at odds. Perhaps he also enjoys seeing Gertie and Joe at odds.

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I saw it as being amused at something, he had no power to change. I don’t think for one minute he enjoyed seeing Gertie and Joe at odds with each other; but maybe I'm wrong.

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I do think Lawrence wanted to insert sexual tension into this story, but like Virgil, I don't find the story at all well crafted. However, as Virgil mentioned, the story wasn't published during Lawrence's lifetime. If he wouldn't have written some lesser stories he wouldn't be human, and he was certainly human, and he certainly wrote some very finely crafted, superlative stories later in his career.

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Disagree with both of you; I do think the story is well-crafted. I defy anyone of us to come up with a story as well crafted as this one. I can’t make that comment, unless I could do better. Yes, he was human and even at an early age many thought of Lawrence as the young genius. His novel “The White Peacock” has many flaws and yet he got his start with that novel; I read it and I overlooked the flaws and found the novel brillant, fascinating. Even early under-developed Lawrence is better than some authors who have remained mediocre. That is exactly true, Lawrence was ‘human’.

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Edit - After thinking about it, I see the story as more of a power struggle than a story with sexual tension, though there's no denying that for a few moments, Edward is attracted to Gertie. I think it's Gertie's fear of the approaching storm and he vulnerabilty that set Edward off more than any truly sexual thing, though.

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It probably is a power struggle in many ways during the duration of the story; such as between the two women; later, no doubt between the two men. I don’t see a power struggle between Mrs.Thomas and Severn; unless you mean her exerting a power over him in a sexual way, by way of suggestion. I guess there is power struggle between Mr. and Mrs. Thomas at the table.

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"She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered; she was eight years older than he....Both glanced at the window, then at each other. For a moment it was a look of greeting; then his eyes dilated to a smile, wide with recklessness. He felt her waver, lose her composure, become incoherent. Seeing the faint helplessness of coming tears, he felt his heart thud to a crisis. She had her face at her sewing."

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A look of greeting, at least at first. There had not been sexual tension previously, at least to me, and each is rather horrified that they feel that way now.

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Seems that way; but we are not privy to what kind of interaction has taken place before this story begins. On a 'day-to-day' basis perhaps, there was attraction at times, but just in a playful sense; nothing at all serious. I guess then you could say there did not exist sexual tension, until this scene when the two are alone in the room together, prior to the husband returning home late from his meeting.

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I don't feel there's real sexual tension, but I do feel Edward is attracted to Gertie because of her vulnerability, a vulnerability which disappears once Mr. Thomas arrives home.

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So you think it is merely her vulnerability that he is attracted to? I know by now, that you don’t see any sexual tension in this story. I am not even sure who brought up that phrase. Were you the culprit, Virgil?

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I see the story as more a domestic power struggle. Perhaps Lawrence wanted it to be more, and I can see where some people see more, but I feel like Virgil, if Lawrence did want more, then he failed in this story, and that's not a criticism because all the best writers fail at a story from time to time. It's natural and it's human. Lawrence became a writer of magnificent short stories, no doubt about that, but I don't think this one can be counted among the great ones. As Virgil said, it's too ambiguous, too unconnected.

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Well, that is fine if that is how you see it; that is your opinion.
I do see the sexual attraction and tension; so therefore, I don’t feel Lawrence failed at the story. He was young and I am cutting him a break perhaps, but I don’t see the story as flawed and if it truly is, I don’t think it is flawed enough to ruin my reading or enjoyment of it personally. I haven’t heard any Lawrence scholars say this particular story is a failure and I have read much about this story, this time period in L’s life and the real story this was based upon; all from different sources.

I am not sure how something can be ‘too ambiguous, too unconnected’. Many of the Chekhov stories, we have been reading, could be acused of the same thing – what about the one we are current discussing? There is much 'ambiguity' in that story and I don’t see where it makes the story a poor work of fictional writing. If anything it makes it fascinating.

Well, I will have to get to your current posts tomorrow. This took me time and now I am going to watch a movie. Tomorrow I can post more of the new text, also; and comment on that briefly. I will be home all day.

Re. quoting issues:

It would be great if everyone used the "quote" functions while posting because it does help reading the posts. It would make it much easier for anyone reading, especially for us Moderators who read almost every single post in this Forum.

Here is a little "how to" (if you have any further questions, please do not hesitate one of the Moderators):

- To quote a post or a part of it, please type [-quote] at the beginning of a quote and [-/quote] at the end (withour the -). It is very similar to using [i] or [b] function on the forum but replaced with [quote], instead.

- To add the name of the poster to your quote, type [-quote=Username] at the beginning of a quote (without the -).

- To quote more than one post in your reply, click the http://www.online-literature.com/for...iquote_off.gif icon on the right bottom corner of each post you would like to quote. It looks like this if you've clicked it, http://www.online-literature.com/for...tiquote_on.gif then click Post Reply button, they show up automatically in text field. Then you can add your comments at the end of each quote, which will be marked with [-/quote] (without the -).

You can practise using these functions in your posts and edit them when/if necessary.

This is a wonderful thread that hosts one of the liveliest and prolonged discussions on the Forum. However, recently its image has been tarnished by personal differences, which is why I am now asking you all to put all these behind or deal with them via PMs. Persistence in similar vein will lead to temporary/permanent thread closure.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I agree about the layers of civilization. You've said it well. I don't need to add a thing, except to say that I found it heavy-handed about the carnal scent of the iris as well. Iris don't have much scent. Strange, he did the same thing in "Odour of Chrysanthemums" and they don't have much scent, either. Oh, well. I do agree completely about the central theme of the story. And I agree that being shut up together in the storm, Edward develops an attraction to Gertie. Maybe we're getting hung up on semantics and we shouldn't do that. So, while I don't see sexual tension throughout the story, yes, I see it in that scene.

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I do think that what I put in bold in that post is the heart of the story.

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Well, if she sounds like Frieda....LOL And you would know, having studied Lawrence. ;)

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I'm not claiming that he was basing the character on Frieda. I'm not sure if he had even met Frieda when he wrote this story. I would have to check a timeline. But Mrs Thomas does seem to have a number of similar characteristics with Frieda, including a husband who doesn't pay her much attention.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I can buy part of that but gentleman could probably be changed to 'lady's man.';) :lol:

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:lol: I am not. Let's not give anyone any false impressions.

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I agree or at least sexual attraction as some point. I also think each scene is extremely well written. I have no qualms with the writing here. I don't see that it fails at all to express what is going on in the house.

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My problem is that we have to project too much into the scenes. Like I said there are two planes that Lawrence is trying to dramatise, the surface "civilized" plane, and an subconscious plane of pseudo freudian desires of the id. I think that's what he's referring to in the two levels of the thunderstorm. The subconscious plane is a primitive ideal, the old Adam.

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The question I would say is a struggle for what? But yes Lawrence leaves it (I believe, and perhaps I'm wrong) as a subconscious attraction.

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Doesn't he do that often though in his writing?

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Yes, I just don't think he's as successful in this story. I really don't have that much of a problem with the Severn/Mrs. Thomas scene, but the Kate and the child scenes are frankly confusing within the context of the story. Like I said individually they are well written. How do they relate to the fight scene or to the possible Severn/Mrs. Thomas relationship? I can make certain leaps of faith and guess, but I do not think it's clear.

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Could you explain what you mean by heavy handed. Is that another literary term I am not familiar with?

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Too obvious; he tells too much rather than dramatise. It's probably the only moment in the story where L is heavy handed. Other times he's just too subtle that it becomes vague, as I explanin in the paragraph above. I suspect that as L was writing this, he realized he was being too vague and decided to be heavy handed on this point to make sure.

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Virgil, I think those are interesting thoughts and intelligent and all posibilities. I am not totally sure of their validity but like I said it sounds possible. Maybe later you can expound on this idea. I can see what you are leading up to here and I think you are on the right track.

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Ok.

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Where does the text say she is husky? Just curious. The woman who this character was fashioned after was Mrs. Jones, and not Frieda. You are so funny, Virgil, you are always thinking it is Frieda. Is that like your phallic symbol fetishes? You always picture Frieda also from her worst photos after she lived with L for many years. Her earlier photos show a rather pretty woman. I guess living with a genius is not easy.

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I believe you it's not based on Frieda, but there are uncanny similariites. I think it says she's large built but now I'm not sure, but here are a couple of passages that would suggest it:

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The mother took the baby to carry her to bed. Mrs. Thomas was thirty-four years old, full-bosomed and ripe. She had dark hair that twined lightly round her low, white brow. She had a clear complexion, and beautiful brows, and dark-blue eyes. The lower part of her face was heavy.

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Mrs. Thomas watched his fine mouth lifted for kissing. She leaned forward, lowering the baby, and suddenly, by a quick change in his eyes, she knew he was aware of her heavy woman's breasts approaching down to him. The wild rogue of a baby bent her face to his, and then, instead of kissing him, suddenly licked his cheek with her wet, soft tongue. He started back in aversion, and his eyes and his teeth flashed with a dangerous laugh.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Regarding the story being well written or not, I don't care if it's well written or not. It's still amusing and interesting. I've stated that. I've also stated I think Lawrence a superlative writer, especially in the area of the short story.

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It is a fun story. That was my first reaction. As we have analysized it to death, I think it's flaws have surfaced, at least for me. Like Janine says, this is a young writer and we should cut him a break. Even at my age now i couldn't write as good as this story is at Lawrence's age. If I came across this story in a current magazine, I would say what a good writer this is. I think we are being a little overly picky, but we are here to disect.

Janine, I don't think anyone is saying this story is crap. It's just not upper tier level. That's all.

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I always allow others their opinions and respect them, but I feel mine are being misconstrued here. Please show me where I've been inconsistent as I don't see it. I am in no way saying I'm right. Everyone else could be right and I could be wrong and that's fine with me. I don't think it's even a question of right and wrong. I just think I should be allowed to my own opinion and not have people say I've changed it several times.

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I don't think anyone is disrespecting you Anti. But this is a dialogue between all of us, and perhaps we are being super critical of all our statements, just lkike we're doiing to poor Lawrence's story. ;)

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I no doubt am a very demanding reader. I do not contest that statement one bit. I am probably one of the most demanding readers people will ever encounter. I'm also demanding with myself when I write. I'm afriad I don't post my work here. People ask to read it and say they want to make a comment about it, then don't, so now I don't post it.

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Very good. We all have certain traits and abilities we bring to the dialogue. In the end all our abilities, mine, yours, janine's, Dark Muses's, and Quark's add up for 1) an interesting conversation and 2)a rounded understanding of the story. I highlight the word "rounded" because all of our readings add up to a better understanding of the work.

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No, I've always said the story is not about "sexual tension" and I maintain that it's not about "sexual tension." I have never wavered from that or from the fact that Edward only feels a primitive, but repugnant and fleeting, attraction to Gertie Thomas. That, to me, does not constitute "sexual tension."

I do not think this is a story of "sexual tension." To me, on episode of primitive attraction that lasts a minute or so, isn't "sexual tension." If it is to others, that's fine with me, but please allow me to have my own opinion and not say I keep changing it when you said you can't even make sense of my posts.

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I can definitely see where your reading it this way. I do disagree, but I see where you're coming from.

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Janine, it's fine with me if not every story measures up to "The Horse-Dealer's Daughter." Not many stories, from any author, do. In fact, I think "The Old Adam" is good to look at because it shows how much Lawrence evolved. And it's an amusing story in its own right. I think the story was a good choice.

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And so do I. Has anyone bought the audio. I did, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I love reading while an audio of the text is being read. I've said this in many places on lit net. I find audio readings very entertaining. But I do need to read along. Many people just listen, and I can't focus that well with just a reader. But a reader with the text in front of me really amplifies the writing.

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I think sometimes we tend to go round and round in this thread because people want others to agree with them and I don't personally think total agreement is necessary.

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Sometimes. Sometimes we are just questioning each other. It's trying to understand how the other person arrived at that conclusion. But sometimes we do press it to far. I think we're all guilty of that.

One point about the use of flowers and how irises (and Mums in another story) don't have odor and yet Lawrence says they do. I can't quite answer that. But I must say Lawrence knew his botony. In fact I think that's what he taught in school when he was a teacher before he was a writer. There are flowers in just about every work he wrote. I have to think that the irises and mums he's referring to do have an odor, perhaps in some version in England. I don't know. But Lawrence really, really knew flowers. It doesn't strike me as something he would make up. It's probably something my lack of expertise can't pin down.

If people don't mind, especially Janine, I would like to take over the leadership of this story. I think I will make it go faster. Is that alright?

Virgil, that is just fine with me; would be great if you would take over the story. Actually, I asked Virgil to do so in a PM last night. I don't mind admitting it here now; I am quite resigned to the fact I am simply going to bail out for the rest of this discussion. I'll have to consider about continuing with other discussions in this thread. I definitely need a break; I think I said that about 3 months back, but then we ended up continuing. I tried to do a good job contributing to this thread, within my own capabilities, so I am satisified with that.

I tried my best to pick a good story this time, that everyone would enjoy in a lighter way, sorry it did not turn out quite that way. I am glad to hear that you, Virgil, downloaded the story and have enjoyed it; that was one reason I chose this story (of course, I reviewed it first; liked it personally). I hope to download it myself for my collection; I really enjoy listening to those audiobooks. I love the one of "Women in Love" and actually am listening to it a third time. Kind of crazy, huh? But the prose is so beautiful.

I am truly sorry to leave this discussion group, but I just can't deal with it, at this time. I am happy this thread has been so successful and run as long as it has; a year with over 2000 posts is really impressive, I think.

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This is a wonderful thread that hosts one of the liveliest and prolonged discussions on the Forum.

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Scherherazade, Since I have been a part of this thread since the beginning, I want to thank you for this compliment; it makes me personally very happy to hear. I think we discussed over 10 stories and they all were good discussions.

I agree about 'tarnished' (I will spare requoting). That saddens me greatly; no doubt I contributed to that myself; this is why I made the decision to leave; I really do not wish to be combatant in anyway.
It would sadden me more to see the thread closed for any reason; so leaving feels like my best option at this time.

I would rather leave now, while I still love Lawrence's work and don't see his work as a negative thing. I have made it my goal to learn and study as much as I can about the author and the short stories (most of which I have now read) are only a small part of my own independent study.

I want to extend my best for the remainder of the discussion to everyone here. No hard feelings really. I am quite sad to leave the discussion, but like I said, it is a small percentage of my own studies on the author.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Virgil, that is just fine with me; would be great if you would take over the story. Actually, I asked Virgil to do so in a PM last night. I don't mind admitting it here now; I am quite resigned to the fact I am simply going to bail out for the rest of this discussion. I'll have to consider about continuing with other discussions in this thread. I definitely need a break; I think I said that about 3 months back, but then we ended up continuing. I tried to do a good job contributing to this thread, within my own capabilities, so I am satisified with that.

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Oh I didn't realize you were not going to participate at all. Ok I understand.

So let's get on with looking at the text. I will post whole sections at a time. Breaking into subsections I think makes it harder to see the big picture of the story; of course on the flip side we may not be able to focus on the details as much. So there are pluses and minues to both approaches. As it turns out completing this section is still not that large a chunk. Ok, here it is.

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Mrs. Thomas went very pale. She tried not to look at the window, yet, when she felt the lightning blench the lamplight, she watched, and each time a flash leaped on the window, she shuddered. Severn, all unconsciously, was smiling with roused eyes.

"You don't like it?" he said, at last, gently.

"Not much," she answered, and he laughed.

"Yet all the storms are a fair way off," he said. "Not one near enough to touch us."

"No, but," she replied, at last laying her hands in her lap, and turning to him, "it makes me feel worked up. You don't know how it makes me feel, as if I couldn't contain myself."

She made a helpless gesture with her hand. He was watching her closely. She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered; she was eight years older than he. He smiled in a strange, alert fashion, like a man who feels in jeopardy. She bent over her work, stitching nervously. There was a silence in which neither of them could breathe freely.

Presently a bigger flash than usual whitened through the yellow lamplight. Both glanced at the window, then at each other. For a moment it was a look of greeting; then his eyes dilated to a smile, wide with recklessness. He felt her waver, lose her composure, become incoherent. Seeing the faint helplessness of coming tears, he felt his heart thud to a crisis. She had her face at her sewing.

Severn sank in his chair, half suffocated by the beating of his heart. Yet, time after time, as the flashes came, they looked at each other, till in the end they both were panting, and afraid, not of the lightning but of themselves and of each other.

He was so much moved that he became conscious of his perturbation. "What the deuce is up?" he asked himself, wondering. At twenty-seven, he was quite chaste. Being highly civilised, he prized women for their intuition, and because of the delicacy with which he could transfer to them his thoughts and feelings, without cumbrous argument. From this to a state of passion he could only proceed by fine gradations, and such a procedure he had never begun. Now he was startled, astonished, perturbed, yet still scarcely conscious of his whereabouts. There was a pain in his chest that made him pant, and an involuntary tension in his arms, as if he must press someone to his breast. But the idea that this someone was Mrs. Thomas would have shocked him too much had he formed it. His passion had run on subconsciously, till now it had come to such a pitch it must drag his conscious soul into allegiance. This, however, would probably never happen; he would not yield allegiance, and blind emotion, in this direction, could not carry him alone.

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Several points. I'm not quite sure why Mrs. Thomas is so afraid of the thunder. Yes there are people that are, but why her here? And doesn't it contrast with Kate who doesn't seem to flinch on the thunder? Is it to signal that Mrs. Thomas is afraid of that subconscious plane, her primitive nature? Is it to show a female weakness at the primitive level, a dependency to the male? "She made a helpless gesture with her hand. He was watching her closely. She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered" Not clear to me. What are your thoughts?

This paragraph gets to the heart of the tension (whether sexual or not;) ):

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Severn sank in his chair, half suffocated by the beating of his heart. Yet, time after time, as the flashes came, they looked at each other, till in the end they both were panting, and afraid, not of the lightning but of themselves and of each other.

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And then we have the paragraph we've focused on before, where Severn questions himself ("What the deuce is up?" he asked himself, wondering.) about his sexual arousal. And then we get a clear statement of what've I've been calling the two planes of consciousness:

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There was a pain in his chest that made him pant, and an involuntary tension in his arms, as if he must press someone to his breast. But the idea that this someone was Mrs. Thomas would have shocked him too much had he formed it. His passion had run on subconsciously, till now it had come to such a pitch it must drag his conscious soul into allegiance. This, however, would probably never happen; he would not yield allegiance, and blind emotion, in this direction, could not carry him alone.

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Interesting Lawrence even uses the word "tension." Like I said earlier, Lawrence felt the need to be heavy handed here, otherwise the theme of the story would have been indeciperable.

Another interesting point, perhaps already stated by one of us, is that he will not act on his desires. At least that's what his conscious mind says. He intends to hold on to the mast (is that a good way to say it?) of civilization. Interesting, Severn doesn't repress it with Mr. Thomas and they conclude on good terms, wile he will not act with Mrs. Thomas and they end on frustrated terms.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

In the end all our abilities, mine, yours, janine's, Dark Muses's, and Quark's add up for 1) an interesting conversation and 2)a rounded understanding of the story. I highlight the word "rounded" because all of our readings add up to a better understanding of the work.

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Those are certainly two of the advantages to discussing the stories in the L thread. I've always found the conversation interesting and argument enlightening. With that in mind, let me "round" parts of your last post. First, this:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I really don't have that much of a problem with the Severn/Mrs. Thomas scene, but the Kate and the child scenes are frankly confusing within the context of the story. Like I said individually they are well written. How do they relate to the fight scene or to the possible Severn/Mrs. Thomas relationship? I can make certain leaps of faith and guess, but I do not think it's clear.

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I didn't have the same problems understanding Kate and Mary. The Kate and Gertie fight mirrors the Severn-husband fight. You're right that Lawrence doesn't integrate her character into the plot, but that's only because it would be repetitive to do so. After we see the Severn-husband fight it's instantly clear why Kate is leaving. The reader doesn't need to see her fight played out; we've already seen what that would look like. Meanwhile, Mary shows the temptation and repulsion of desire that we later see in the wife. Gertie attracts Severn only to reject him later. Mary does the same. I didn't think her role--or Kate's--was in any way ambiguous. In fact, I thought we agreed on the points I made above.

One other comment on this:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Like I said there are two planes that Lawrence is trying to dramatise, the surface "civilized" plane, and an subconscious plane of pseudo freudian desires of the id. I think that's what he's referring to in the two levels of the thunderstorm. The subconscious plane is a primitive ideal, the old Adam.

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That's well put. Severn's inner struggle between these two planes is particularly dwelt on. I'm surprised you didn't like this part, though.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I am simply going to bail out for the rest of this discussion.

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You've certainly earned a break, but don't think that anyone here is pushing you out. We're all sorry to lose you. Hopefully, you can come back soon.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I am happy this thread has been so successful and run as long as it has; a year with over 2000 posts is really impressive, I think.

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Yes, it's been the busiest literature thread on the entire forum. (I did a brief check). It's also a close second for the most entertaining--right after the Chekhov Short Story Thread (CSST).

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Several points. I'm not quite sure why Mrs. Thomas is so afraid of the thunder. Yes there are people that are, but why her here? And doesn't it contrast with Kate who doesn't seem to flinch on the thunder? Is it to signal that Mrs. Thomas is afraid of that subconscious plane, her primitive nature? Is it to show a female weakness at the primitive level, a dependency to the male? "She made a helpless gesture with her hand. He was watching her closely. She seemed to him pathetically helpless and bewildered" Not clear to me. What are your thoughts?

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I think it is a sign of her weakness, perhaps as a woman, she is seen as week compared to Severn in the room with her whom does not seem to be bothered by the storm but rather more amused by it and her fear of it.

It could also be her apprehension and fear to the tension within the air, and what the storm signifies in the events that are yet to come. It seems to be very uncharacteristic of her character, as normally she is seen as being very overbearing and dominant, so perhaps it is showing her vulnerability here.

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He smiled in a strange, alert fashion, like a man who feels in jeopardy. She bent over her work, stitching nervously. There was a silence in which neither of them could breathe freely.

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I found these lines interesting. Perhaps it is seeing her in this moment of vulnerability of weakness that sparks his attraction to her.

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Presently a bigger flash than usual whitened through the yellow lamplight. Both glanced at the window, then at each other. For a moment it was a look of greeting; then his eyes dilated to a smile, wide with recklessness. He felt her waver, lose her composure, become incoherent. Seeing the faint helplessness of coming tears, he felt his heart thud to a crisis. She had her face at her sewing.

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Here Severn does seem drawn to this softer side of Mrs. Thomas, seeing her in a different light, or new element than he is use to seeing her. It also seems to be an example of the weakness of the feminine compared to the masculine, she is being cast very much like the damsel in distress in this interaction with Severn, compare to how she than later acts.

Also I found the use of the word recklessness interesting here.