I really do not know how it happens, but I have heard nuermous times about it, as I have done a lot of study into vamprisim and vampire lore and seen it said more then one by experts on the subject.
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I really do not know how it happens, but I have heard nuermous times about it, as I have done a lot of study into vamprisim and vampire lore and seen it said more then one by experts on the subject.
Which story are you guys reading? I think I might get some time this weekend to read it.
The Man Who Loved Islands
Hi Quark,good to see you here. It is a very good story this time. I hope you get time to read it on the weekend. We already have a lot of good posts (do review them, after your reading, if you have the time). I am not sure now where everyone ran off to. As for myself, I just needed a short break. I will re-read the story this weekend, if I have a chance to. I am sure you will have some very good comments and ideas, to add to this discussion. I always enjoy hearing what you have to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
DM, I guess we better get back on topic, or everyone will think we are discussing vampires instead of 'Islands'. :lol:
Here are some thoughts I had the other day ,so I made some notes on particular segments of the text that interested me:
Even from the beginning of the story, I noticed that - by contrast, Lawrence is demonstrating in this paragraph the opposite conditions to his idyllic world and what negative results (specifically) would develop, if this island could be populated, or overpopulated. This world is the world the islander has left to found a new world of his own making, I believe.Quote:
Since, if you are like Abraham, and want your offspring to be numberless as the sands of the sea-shore, you don't choose an island to start breeding on. Too soon there would be overpopulation, overcrowding, and slum conditions. Which is a horrid thought, for one who loves an island for its insulation. No, an island is a nest which holds one egg, and one only. This egg is the islander himself.
In contrast, the next paragraph shows this ‘new world’ to be a splendid, idyllic place and there seems to be only one word in this paragraph to foreshadow this feeling of paradise and that is the word ‘gloomy’ to describe the main dwelling-house; curious. Also, curious to me is the fact and the authors stating so, that the island is ‘quite near at home’ it is ‘not in the remote oceans’. I am thinking that in actuality, L fashioned this story after his friend, who indeed did own an island just off the coast of Scotland, and Scotland is part of a larger island, the UK, which was ‘home’ at one time to Lawrence. I find the words ‘all neat and white-washed interesting, because later in the story, it was stated and emphasized that the man liked to wear white clothing, also that he was always clean and neat…which reflects a kind of ‘perfection’ in mannerism.
Interesting to me are the three islands together, one larger, one smaller – not that he owns them all, but perhaps the number might be prophetic or representative of the three islands of the story and this is suggestion set early in the story. Could the larger island be Scotland, or the land of the islander left behind? Someone already quote that last line; I think it is worth quoting again. It is a great statement!Quote:
The island acquired by our potential islander was not in theremoteoceans. It was quite near at home, no palm-trees nor boom of surf on the reef, nor any of that kind of thing; but a good solid dwelling-house, rather gloomy, above the landing-place, and beyond, a small farmhouse with sheds, and a few outlying fields. Down on the little landing bay were three cottages in a row, like coastguards' cottages, all neat and white-washed.
And when you came to the edge, you could see another, bigger island lying beyond…….you saw to the east still another island, a tinyone this time, like the calf of the cow. This tiny island also belonged to the islander.
Thus it seems that even islands like to keep each other company.
Thus it has a lovely description suggesting the image of a 'paradise', in the presentation of beautiful natural elements of the island; and in the final statementQuote:
Our islander loved his island very much.
In contrast the next paragraph stated…Quote:
Wonderful what a great world it was!
Interesting personification of the island “cowerd dark, holding away from you”, also “the resentful spirit coiled upon itself”, as though it were indeed a human or a distinct character in the story. I like the references of the ‘dog coiled in gloom” and the snake in this limbo state of neither sleep or awakedness. This seems to reflect the state of this man.Quote:
So autumn ended with rain, and winter came, dark skies and dampness and rain, but rarely frost. The island, your island, cowered dark, holding away from you. You could feel, down in the wet, sombre hollows, the resentful spirit coiled upon itself, like a wet dog coiled in gloom, or a snake that is neither asleep nor awake.
I like this part of the statement describing the island at night in the wind and how the islander felt:
Note this exquisite use of words and repetition of the word 'infinite', which is especially significant to these thoughts.Quote:
….you felt that your island was a universe, infinite and old as the darkness; not an island at all, but an infinite dark world where all the souls from all the other bygone nights lived on, and the infinite distance was near.
I think those lines are amazing. Here 'time' or the concept is repeated and emphasized. It is written so poetically. Just so beautiful!Quote:
Strangely, from your little island in space, you were gone forth into the dark, great realms of time, where all the souls that never die veer and swoop on their vast, strange errands. The little earthly island has dwindled, like a jumping-off place, into nothingness, for you have jumped off, you know not how, into the dark wide mystery of time, where the past is vastly alive, and the future is not separated off.
That is great and the whole concept of ‘time’ or perhaps ‘time in relation to isolation’ is embodied here in these statements. I found this so interesting when I first read it. I was thinking of how time chances or is perceived differently by people who are in captivity. This whole passage also seems to me to question the idea of perception and how we view things from different vantage points. I think this part of the story is brilliant writing.Quote:
This is the danger of becoming an islander. When, in the city, you wear your white spats and dodge the traffic with the fear of death down your spine, then you are quite safe from the terrors of infinite time. The moment is your little islet in time, it is the spatial universe that careers round you.
But once isolate yourself on a little island in the sea of space, and the moment begins to heave and expand in great circles, the solid earth is gone, and your slippery, naked dark soul finds herself out in the timeless world, where the chariots of the so- called dead dash down the old streets of centuries, and souls crowd on the footways that we, in the moment, call bygone years. The souls of all the dead are alive again, and pulsating actively around you. You are out in the other infinity.
LOL yes I must take the blame for that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
You did bring up a lot of really good points, as well as found some great passages to post.
Yes this is a good point. I really like the linesQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
For some reason this makes me think of the cookoo bird. Mother cookoo birds will lay only a single egg, within another birds nest, and when the cookoo hatches it will kick out its "adopted" siblings, the hatchinlings of the true owner of the nest, so the best will become his own without compeition from other birds for nourishment.Quote:
No, an island is a nest which holds one egg, and one only. This egg is the islander himself.
I never thought of the idea, that the larger island might in fact be Scotland itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
That is a very good point about the state of the island here refelcting the islanders own state. As well it seems to be another use of foreshadow. It seems as if there are a lot of clues within the first island as to what the ultimate outcome for the islander will be.
That was a great passage, and an intresting concept. I think it also shows that beyond the basics of the changing of the seasons, and the passage from day to night, time is indeed a human invetion and human preception. If you are living upon an island apart from the world. What does it really matter what week it is, or if it is Saturday or Thrusday, or if it is 10 o clock or 2 o clock. And indeed people do tend to loose track of time when the world and responseablities of the world are not there to remind them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I am sure many have had that exeprince as a kid during the summer months when you were out of school of loosing track of time, when you really did not have to pay attention to what time it was becasue you were free of your usual responsbilites.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Thanks, I'll take a look at it over the weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Sorry don't want to take this off-topic. But I read this only a few days ago that the belief of nails and hairs growin after death is a myth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Quote:
Strangely, from your little island in space, you were gone forth into the dark, great realms of time, where all the souls that never die veer and swoop on their vast, strange errands. The little earthly island has dwindled, like a jumping-off place, into nothingness, for you have jumped off, you know not how, into the dark wide mystery of time, where the past is vastly alive, and the future is not separated off.
They are beautiful, Janine. Such beautiful language.Quote:
But once isolate yourself on a little island in the sea of space, and the moment begins to heave and expand in great circles, the solid earth is gone, and your slippery, naked dark soul finds herself out in the timeless world, where the chariots of the so- called dead dash down the old streets of centuries, and souls crowd on the footways that we, in the moment, call bygone years. The souls of all the dead are alive again, and pulsating actively around you. You are out in the other infinity.
I haven’t done much pondering or reading or anything :blush: Am just reading people’s posts at the moment. And they are very thought-provoking.:thumbs_up
Thanks for sharing that poem, Nossa. I was wondering, initially the islander didn't particularly want to be alone in it
But he never really tried to have that relationship with people, initially he was the Master. Never liked anyone man-to-man or man-to-woman. And then onwards onto the second island. He never attempted to seek that balance. On the third, of course, he recoiled from any sort of company, companionship altogether. So, I think its a very good point you make and which I think Amalia, was it? pointed out earlier.Quote:
He wanted an island all of his own: not necessarily to be alone on it, but to make it a world of his own.
P.S. He buried his heart with his wife? Gosh. Curious.
P.P.S. I know next to nothing about art or artists Janine, wouldn't know anything about the Pre-Raphaelites. I'll look them up.
P.P.P.S. Every time I try to post there is a power failure, lol.
DarkMuse, Not your fault at all. We all took a little detour while things were slow. Just need now to get back on-track.
DM, thanks for taking the time to read them. Hope they were helpful.Quote:
You did bring up a lot of really good points, as well as found some great passages to post.
Thanks, and glad you agree, I like those lines very much, too.Quote:
Yes this is a good point. I really like the lines
That is an interesting idea and thought in relation to his line and Lawrence did know a great deal about birds. No doubt he knew this, as well.Quote:
For some reason this makes me think of the cookoo bird. Mother cookoo birds will lay only a single egg, within another birds nest, and when the cookoo hatches it will kick out its "adopted" siblings, the hatchinlings of the true owner of the nest, so the best will become his own without compeition from other birds for nourishment.
Well, I think it could be any island or all islands such as an archipelago, which is a group of many islands. It could even represent a continent...aren't these surrounded by water, too? But considering Lawrence's source for his idea (merely) to form the story, I thought of Scotland and England - this representing the civilized industrial world, he might be indicating in that passage - the world the islander originally called 'home' which is in one of the first passages, before he bought island #1 and moved there. This would make sense to me from a personal Lawrence history in which Lawrence became disgusted first with his own England and later exciled himself from his homeland, to live abroad. However, Lawrence never truly departed from his 'Englishnish'.Quote:
I never thought of the idea, that the larger island might in fact be Scotland itself.
I thought it definitely a use of 'foreshadowing' because Lawrence does this in all his stories and novels. It is very characteristic of his writing.Quote:
That is a very good point about the state of the island here refelcting the islanders own state. As well it seems to be another use of foreshadow. It seems as if there are a lot of clues within the first island as to what the ultimate outcome for the islander will be.
Yes, time is certainly a human convention - it is merely a division and a calibration and to some cultures there is no sense of weekends or working days or this distinct division of time. The American Indians lived by the sun, moon, stars; all time just flowed from this point of the day into the next like a wheel turning...like the blank face of a clock. If someone is marooned on a island alone, their whole concept of time is completely changed. Now time passes in the same way, the movement of the sun and the stars and moon at night become the timepiece and are significant. Even when a person no longer works or follows a routine schedule, it hardly matters when a weekend arises or a week begins, does it? We all have a strong concept of weekends in modern working societies. Also, when doing a task one truly loves, have you ever noticed, just how fast the time seems to advance, but then the opposite is true, when in pain or having to wait for something? Then time seems almost to halt and we are anxious for it to passby quickly.Quote:
That was a great passage, and an intresting concept. I think it also shows that beyond the basics of the changing of the seasons, and the passage from day to night, time is indeed a human invetion and human preception. If you are living upon an island apart from the world. What does it really matter what week it is, or if it is Saturday or Thrusday, or if it is 10 o clock or 2 o clock. And indeed people do tend to loose track of time when the world and responseablities of the world are not there to remind them.
Absolutely true. Then do you recall how hard it was to get back into the routine of school and the concept of time and schedules?Quote:
I am sure many have had that exeprince as a kid during the summer months when you were out of school of loosing track of time, when you really did not have to pay attention to what time it was becasue you were free of your usual responsbilites.
Quote by Hira:
Hello Hira, I tended to believe this is myth. It was funny, last night I was watching the film "The Secret Garden" and the little girl said that about hair and nails growing after death. I had laugh since life does have it's coincidences. I will read that article. It is quite prominient in many stories and myths I know; but I did not think it truly possible for humans who die to achieve this. When the body is dead all the cells are dead as well. We are one entity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hira
DM, you have been watching too many vampire movies.;)
I agree completely and to think there were critics and still are, of Lawrence's writing skill, who say he had 'no form' or was 'not that great a writer, or poet'. Are they kidding? These passages are poetry and so wonderful to read! So deep and rich with meaning, too.Quote:
They are beautiful, Janine. Such beautiful language.
Hira, ponder all you like! We have lots of time. This is a short story you know; we still have the whole month to discuss it, longer than that if you desire it. These threads never truly close, although in this one, everyone will want to get to the next story by the beginning of next month. It is only the 11th though so, as I said, we have much time left on this story. Ponder all you want to and please do review all the posts...there are some good comments there and valuable information.Quote:
I haven’t done much pondering or reading or anything :blush: Am just reading people’s posts at the moment. And they are very thought-provoking.:thumbs_up
I liked that poem very much. Showed how Lawrence was thinking at that time. I think I will investigate and see just what year her wrote that poem so we have some kind of perspective on how he felt at different times in his life. As I said before, Lawrence did waver in his beliefs and concepts, so you must take this into consideration. Basically he did believe strongly in somethings that never truly changed, like his disgust of the modern industrial world and the 'machine'.Quote:
Thanks for sharing that poem, Nossa. I was wondering, initially the islander didn't particularly want to be alone in it.
Yes, that is true. Kind of abstract in his ideas on forming this utopian society, don't you think. He obviously could not realistically connect with other people and form true bonds of love and friendship. Even his marriage failed as I think someone pointed out that it was only mechanical and never a truly love experience. I agree that there really never was any balance; perhaps there was for a short time on island #1 but it did not last long or having any stability really.Quote:
But he never really tried to have that relationship with people, initially he was the Master. Never liked anyone man-to-man or man-to-woman. And then onwards onto the second island. He never attempted to seek that balance. On the third, of course, he recoiled from any sort of company, companionship altogether. So, I think its a very good point you make and which I think Amalia, was it? pointed out earlier.
He absolutely did. Strange, isn't it? I think his body was cremated but not quite sure of that. He was remarried, also, when he died and send the heart to wife #1. I think wife #2 got his ashes, and maybe a nice urn;) .Quote:
P.S. He buried his heart with his wife? Gosh. Curious.
I will look something up on them and send to you in a PM, so we don't go off topic again.:lol:Quote:
P.P.S. I know next to nothing about art or artists Janine, wouldn't know anything about the Pre-Raphaelites. I'll look them up.
So sorry about that. We had thunderstorms today and I had to unplug...I don't take any chances after my computer got hit with a surge during a summer storm.Quote:
P.P.P.S. Every time I try to post there is a power failure, lol.
Power failures seem to be a common problem in some areas/countries these days. One suggestion to you would be write your post offline and save it continually; then copy, paste and post into the forum. I do that often. It is easier to think that way, and not be under the pressure to post immediately.
Yes I agree that it did not seem that is first and only real attempt at having any sort of relationship and intimate interaction with other people had not come about becasue of any true feelings of love at least on his part. But rather it almost seemed as if it was simply easier to just go along with the relationship instead of his trying to explain to the girl that he really did not care for her, and sense she was there all the time, he figured he might just as well untill it grew to be too much and so he had to leave once again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
When I was frist reading this, I also could not help but to think that it seemed as it the Islander had some issues with conmentiment, in a way he did abandon each of the islands the same way in which he ended up abandoning the child, instead of staying to try and work at something with any one of the islands and develop what could have been a good if not purely perfect long term arragement. But whenever things got too involved with each of the islands he just left. In the first he began to have the finicial trouble so he decided instead of trying to work through the hardships he would start over again, and then in the second island he left to aviod the responseablity of having to take care of the child.
I find it intresting then that the last island ended up comming off as this very cold and baren as well as lonely place and far from the hopeful paradise of the fist island, was full of missery and pain.
Well, I think the man had a real problems connecting with any humans and so the woman was not quite real to him either. He had similiar problems perhaps to Lawrence character, Gerald, in "Women In Love". Since this short story is presented as a fable or folktale we aren't privy to the inner-workings of the minds of the man and the woman and how they interact. We can only assume that he is distant having been his characteristic behavior with the other islanders. True that she was there, available and convenient for him. I think when she had the child and then he married her then it would go into a whole new realm, one he definitely could not handle. He married her as a gesture only and surely after that she became repulsive to him and as you said below he could not really commit to anything, let alone a relationship with a woman and his child.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Absolutely, he had problems from the start with 'commitment'...and actually, doesn't this epitomize or represent many a man or woman who can't commit to a relationship, with another human being or partner? I think the theme of this story is quite universal and it is more broad than we think, on first reading. Yes, you brought up a good point here with his 'commitment' issues. What made this man this way is never really stated. But when he started out he seemed to be able to commit to the first island until hardships arose. This could be just like a love relationship when the honeymoon period ends and reality sets in. I think we already stated that this islander could not deal with 'reality'. He was living a sort of dreamworld existence and a vague idea of what he wanted his utopia to be like, the last being very characteristic of Lawrence himself.Quote:
When I was frist reading this, I also could not help but to think that it seemed as it the Islander had some issues with conmentiment, in a way he did abandon each of the islands the same way in which he ended up abandoning the child, instead of staying to try and work at something with any one of the islands and develop what could have been a good if not purely perfect long term arragement. But whenever things got too involved with each of the islands he just left. In the first he began to have the finicial trouble so he decided instead of trying to work through the hardships he would start over again, and then in the second island he left to aviod the responseablity of having to take care of the child.
Yes, it is really just the opposite of how the story begins in springtime. It ends in winter. Interesting, isn't it?Quote:
I find it intresting then that the last island ended up comming off as this very cold and baren as well as lonely place and far from the hopeful paradise of the fist island, was full of missery and pain.
This just brought an intresting thought to mind. It seems almost as if each of the islands represents a different stage in life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
The first island is like childhood growing into adolecents. Where at first everything seems like paradise, it is knew, there are no worries or cares, but still he is faced with some fears and anctipation in the form of the ghosts which arrise, but still for the most part there seems to be harmony, but then as people are brought to the island, it is like the transistion from child into young adult, where a little more responsblity starts to arise, and things become a little less carefree.
Then the second island if full blown adulthood, on the second island he is never quite as happy as he frist strared on the first island, but for a while at least it seems there is some contentment, but still there is even more responsebalites that arise, and he has a harder time trying to find his uptopia.
And finally the last island is the comming of end of life. Where fears seem to start to emger once again, but even greater then before, and one is truly confronted with thier isolation and aloness in the world.
Sorry I've had to be away form the conversation most of the week. I'm a little overwhelmed. Janine, thanks for bringing us back on topic, and thanks for this excellent post. You bring up a few questions, and I'm not sure if they got answered after your post, since I haven't read beyond this. But let me see if I could comment on what you have here.
Good point. Contrast is a very important method Lawrence uses (actually most writers); remember Lawrence thinks in binary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I agree!Quote:
Interesting to me are the three islands together, one larger, one smaller – not that he owns them all, but perhaps the number might be prophetic or representative of the three islands of the story and this is suggestion set early in the story. Could the larger island be Scotland, or the land of the islander left behind? Someone already quote that last line; I think it is worth quoting again. It is a great statement!
I took the snake reference, like the snake in "Sun" as a suggestion of paradise lost.Quote:
Interesting personification of the island “cowerd dark, holding away from you”, also “the resentful spirit coiled upon itself”, as though it were indeed a human or a distinct character in the story. I like the references of the ‘dog coiled in gloom” and the snake in this limbo state of neither sleep or awakedness. This seems to reflect the state of this man.
Now here's where I would like people's thoughts. What is the significance of the "infinite" references through the story? I think I understand the story pretty well, but this is one aspect I can't figure out.Quote:
I like this part of the statement describing the island at night in the wind and how the islander felt:
Note this exquisite use of words and repetition of the word 'infinite', which is especially significant to these thoughts.Quote:
Quote:
….you felt that your island was a universe, infinite and old as the darkness; not an island at all, but an infinite dark world where all the souls from all the other bygone nights lived on, and the infinite distance was near.
Actually this strikes me as another off hand reference to infinite. There are lots of these references to infinite. I should go through the story again and document them. But what's Lawrence suggesting?Quote:
I think those lines are amazing. Here 'time' or the concept is repeated and emphasized. It is written so poetically. Just so beautiful!Quote:
Quote:
Strangely, from your little island in space, you were gone forth into the dark, great realms of time, where all the souls that never die veer and swoop on their vast, strange errands. The little earthly island has dwindled, like a jumping-off place, into nothingness, for you have jumped off, you know not how, into the dark wide mystery of time, where the past is vastly alive, and the future is not separated off.
It is brilliant writing. Yes i agree time is in relation to isolation (and I uderstand that), but I think it's also connected to the infinite, and I don't quite understand that. I hope we can work through a meaning for it. :)Quote:
That is great and the whole concept of ‘time’ or perhaps ‘time in relation to isolation’ is embodied here in these statements. I found this so interesting when I first read it. I was thinking of how time chances or is perceived differently by people who are in captivity. This whole passage also seems to me to question the idea of perception and how we view things from different vantage points. I think this part of the story is brilliant writing.Quote:
Quote:
This is the danger of becoming an islander. When, in the city, you wear your white spats and dodge the traffic with the fear of death down your spine, then you are quite safe from the terrors of infinite time. The moment is your little islet in time, it is the spatial universe that careers round you.
But once isolate yourself on a little island in the sea of space, and the moment begins to heave and expand in great circles, the solid earth is gone, and your slippery, naked dark soul finds herself out in the timeless world, where the chariots of the so- called dead dash down the old streets of centuries, and souls crowd on the footways that we, in the moment, call bygone years. The souls of all the dead are alive again, and pulsating actively around you. You are out in the other infinity.
DM, Excellent point! I also thought of seasons, on each island, representing these various stages or periods in a man's life; such as spring/summer representing his childhood, autumn his adolescence or even adulthood, and winter mature years when he is anticipating and approaching death and the end of his life. This would make sense in the context of the time period that Lawrence wrote this short story -he was about to approach the death stage. In fact this story is discussed in the biography put out by Cambridge - the third in a the series on Lawrence - called "Dying Game". This period of L's life he pretty much knew that he did not have long to live. He had already cheated death so many times and lived way past the years he was predicted to live, so surely in this period his thoughts turned more towards death and the questions of eternity. His poetry from this time period even reflect this fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Quote:
The first island is like childhood growing into adolecents. Where at first everything seems like paradise, it is knew, there are no worries or cares, but still he is faced with some fears and anctipation in the form of the ghosts which arrise, but still for the most part there seems to be harmony, but then as people are brought to the island, it is like the transistion from child into young adult, where a little more responsblity starts to arise, and things become a little less carefree.
Quote:
Then the second island if full blown adulthood, on the second island he is never quite as happy as he frist strared on the first island, but for a while at least it seems there is some contentment, but still there is even more responsebalites that arise, and he has a harder time trying to find his uptopia.
Yes, it pretty clearcut isn't it. The snow could represent 'death' itself encrouching on us and 'obliterating' life itself.Quote:
And finally the last island is the comming of end of life. Where fears seem to start to emger once again, but even greater then before, and one is truly confronted with thier isolation and aloness in the world.
Interesting Dark Muse. It kind of fits, so I would agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse