Yes, I've always felt that 4'33" was a musical cop-out. Though it fills me with a sense of pride that even one whose musical talents are as miserable as mine could play a widely recognized and performed piece of modern orchestral music.
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Yes, I've always felt that 4'33" was a musical cop-out. Though it fills me with a sense of pride that even one whose musical talents are as miserable as mine could play a widely recognized and performed piece of modern orchestral music.
Here is another way to perceive the philosophy of 4' 33" (something that is, with Cage, often just as much of a "statement" as the piece itself)...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna
Since roughly Beethoven (the first significant musical iconoclast to tell the aristocracy to take a hike since there were "many princes but only ONE Beethoven") the idea of music was something that emanated from an inspired genius and "received" (if one were lucky and not too stupid) by the audience.
The European tradition throughout the 19th Century and into the 20th seemed to be lead by iconic and larger-than-life FIGURES which were men (usually) of genius (and obvious mental stability issues) who "conveyed" their emotions and their personal and unique visions through music to the masses.
(We still have some vestiges of this idea today. Many indie rock stars interview poorly, staring off vacantly into space, speaking from very lofty heights and usually have fairly grandious concepts of the significance of their art. The fans usually gobble it all up and worship them as gods.)
But what Cage did is flip the entire model on its head. He is saying, in effect, "the audience is the composer." They are the ones who are assembling the various sounds into something aesthetically coherent and meaningful. Without the audience, there would be no music.
"Emotion" or "meaning" cannot be encoded into notes and rhythms. The acoustic events are triggers which the audience must process in their own way and actually respond to auditory data and create a musical experience FROM it.
If you are frantically looking for your keys because you are late and Brahms 3rd Symphony is playing in the background, it is actually NOISE not music. The sound is not being received and processed and created as a musical experience.
When the listener is not prepared or ready to have a musical experience, there IS no music. It is only unwanted sound....noise.
So the reverse is also true. I can sit and listen to a conversation in a foreign language that I do not understand and I may listen to the rhythms, melodic intonations, phrases and articulations, emphasis, etc. If I direct my musical intent toward this sound, I can listen to it as MUSIC.
The statue of the towering figures should not be burned, they are still to be admired and loved for their creation. But next to it (at the same height) must be the bust of the individual listener. BOTH are needed for music to happen.
Does this resonate with anyone or is it just a pile of crap?
I'm afraid one of my life's rules is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by TacoButt
When an artist's statement says more than their art, there is a problem.
Whilst I appreciate your desire and effort to advocate on Cage's behalf, I'm afraid it doesn't resonate with me.
I gathered that the philosophy behind it would be something like that. I've no problem with the statement, with that sort of theory or philosophy, but I just don't feel the need to pay to go and see it, I'm quite happy to read it in a text book. I also wouldn't be interested in talking up its profundity in the bar afterwards over ridiculously marked up wine.Quote:
Originally Posted by TacoButt
To be fair to Cage though, I would rather listen to the 4' 33" over and over again than a lot of other stuff!
It is pronounced STeeeockh&*!!$$$%%%f=fckme&*(%senQuote:
Originally Posted by TacoButt
Antonin Dvorak
Notturno in B Major
Op. 40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DayCX...feature=fvwrel
Similarly, "Cage" is pronounced, " "Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
A gentleman never tells.Quote:
Originally Posted by TacoButt
And "Reich" is pronounced "re re re re re re just p p p p p lain b b b b onkers ich ich ich ..."Quote:
Originally Posted by TacoButt
I agree with the notion that a work of art that doesn't "work" art piece of art without a lengthy critical treatise isn't worth it's weight as art. Cage's 4:33 has always struck me as the musical equivalent of Marcel Duchamp's Fountain (the urinal). It isn't really intended as a work of music (its not likely we're going to argue as to which orchestra offers the best performance), but rather as a criticism or sorts... a bit of provocation... It asks the question, "What is music?" which of course every clever boy in the music academy has also asked in an equally absurd manner... often while drinking with friends'
What shouldn't be ignored is that Cage was no "one hit wonder". He did compose other music as well. His impact cannot be denied when one considers the major composers who were influenced by his work. A good deal of what Cage brought to the table was a willingness to break outside the confines of the Western tradition of notation (in this he pushes music far beyond Schoenberg who sought to replace the traditional system with one of his own devising) and Western instruments. He was very much influenced by the sounds of various Asian music, including their use of micro-tonality which breaks the range from one octave to the next into far more notes than the traditional Western scale. He was also struck by the sounds of many instruments from various Asian cultures. Many of these instruments are literally hand-made so that there is a vast range of sounds as opposed to Western ideal that any good violin will have the same sound.
Personally, I don't think of Cage's musical efforts as genius... but they can be quite pleasant... sometimes quirky... often quite Impressionistic and evocative... but certainly not just one big hoax:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF1DoVdHM9M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdWS4g6Xv8k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExUos...eature=related
Cage's most important work is not 4:33 but quite probably the Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano. In these works Cage "prepared" the piano in various ways causing the strings to sound in various unexpected ways. The resulting works often suggest Gamelan, the Javanese music that employs a great deal of hand-made percussion. Gamelan performers made a profound impact upon Debussy as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYsx5Di3bso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUTXN...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UhkR...eature=related
Now I'm not about to start placing Cage above Bach... or even Richard Strauss... but I do enjoy giving a listen every now and then. It never hurts to think "outside of the box" now and then.
By the way... while Stockhausen's Helicopter Quartet was stupid... just a bit of mental masturbation of the conceptual sort that has been the bane of the arts since they moved from the academies and the ateliers into academia. On the other hand... I quite like Stockhausen's Stimmung and Gruppen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3dDN-av7mk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dQJdiRlunk
And "Reich" is pronounced "re re re re re re just p p p p p lain b b b b onkers ich ich ich ..."
What's wrong with Reich? He composed some rather fine music. I quite love the Music for 18 Musicians (and I have this fabulous recording):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHVMVDhC-UA
His exploration of percussion can be quite intriguing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv_8U...eature=related
I find this especially so of his work with the marimba:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egwXKQDYcvc
I really love Desert Music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA-iDNxKeco
Jan Sibelius
Symphony No. 5
Finale
Simon Rattle
CBSO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFHek...eature=related
Forget the sound quality and listen to the performance.What a finish.
http://youtu.be/InPRlxxOpOc
Glen Gould and Bach, enough said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyOf_L4cNHc
And of course:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDBGnpInQWQ
I prefer Perahia & ASMF:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-PtkSIwJbE
To me, Perahia seems to have more feeling and variation, Gould seems a bit mechanical and "driven".
I quite like that, but it still sounds a bit repetitive and bonkers (in an endearing way...) Not sure I feel inspired to add it to my collection, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
His exploration of percussion can be quite intriguing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv_8U...eature=related
And I totally agree with you about Nagoya Marimbas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egwXKQDYcvc
I love that - I heard it on BBC radio 3 and had to buy it, but on listening to "different trains" (and finding the title track plain bonkers...) I sought it out on a compilation album...
I don't like Desert Music much.
My favourite minimalist is probably Michael Nyman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2yJR2oyYFA
Or maybe Philip Glass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FniHgiyaTY
But I need to listen to more of this genre to gain a stable opinion.
Minimalist music seems to make very good film music. Maybe you can easily zone out the repetition and can concentrate on the story - but the music is still "doing its work" subminimally ('scuse pun...)
Anyway, what I've really liked listening to today:
Schumann Violin Concerto in D minor 2nd movement, Henryk Szeryng
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wuu4I...AFC58B20CC96CD
Yes Philip Glass is certainly an interesting composer, but although the music used in this extract appears to have been written for the film, the soundtrack was adapted from pieces that Glass had already written as compositions in their own right.
http://youtu.be/l741p6_xomM