PoemoftheWeek

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Originally Posted by The Unnamable

The only thing I cannot understand is why women are stupid enough to fall for his charms. I have therefore come to the conclusion that the male speaker in the poem is right – his victims deserve their fates... We know what you want to hear so you’ll hear it.

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You make a good point. A wise man once said: "Only in the absence of charm can a woman be trusted." (Yes, I know, "wise" is totally in my opinion). As much as I would like to be on Rachel's side, I have seen how easily good looks and charm can win some girl's affection. The guy in the poem never said that he loved the girl. He called her his "Star", and, as he expected, she thought that it meant love. This does not necessarily mean that charm is a bad thing. It can be a great thing. Many genuinely nice guys are also charming and also with an agenda; but once he wins a girl's affection, he becomes dedicated and caring and other nice things (or at least he will try his best to be). I guess, as Unnamable said, "we know what you want to hear so you'll hear it." And, beast or man, what becomes of the guy after the "wallowing" is merely a chance that the girl was prepared to take, having easily interpreted charm for love and having consented to sex. Afterall, she could have said no.

And as Unnamable thinks his teacher friend a pig, so do I the guys who trick girls into bed. But the girls who get tricked must be partly at fault, for how bad at judging a character must someone be to mistake a guy like the one in the poem for a caring and loving man?

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Originally Posted by The Unnamable

"I look forward to the time when I shall be free from all desire and can give myself without hindrance to my work. Because women can do nothing except love, they've given it a ridiculous importance. They want to persuade us that it's the whole of life."

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This is something that I sometimes want to scream out loud. Because the thing with work is, if we don't put it on top of our list, it will never get done properly.

PS. Quoting my "brave" comment, you must be one who loves a challenge Unnamable :)

It is by no means just women that fall for 'charm'. I found this particularly interesting - it appears to be true that when a man's blood rushes elsewhere, his brain is left deprived. ;)

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Originally Posted by Virgil

But ktd, the "he" is not the "I". The "I" is the woman, who orients us with "He speaks".

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I can totally get behind this idea, except that I don't think its out of the realm of possibility for a man to act in this manner.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Yes, I count nine "I's" and nine "you's" and that's a huge amount for such a short poem. In fact so much of the poem is framed "I am," and "you are."

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Ya, whats interesting is that even though there are nine "I's" and nine"you's," the sound created by the 'I' is more pronounced than the 'you'. Isn't this something poetic thats happening in this poem?

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Originally Posted by The Unnamable

Of course men lie to get women into bed and the task is made easier by the fact that women have placed such a ridiculous importance on love. We know what you want to hear so you’ll hear it.

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Well, let me ask you this. On what basis would you prefer relationships to be formed? I can only think of three general types: on love, on financial/status (and I don't necessarily mean prostitution), and lust. Perhaps there are others. Real relationships may share some element of each, but the only one that I meaningful is love.

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women have placed such a ridiculous importance on love.

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Frankly that's what I find most endearing about women. From a mother's love, to a grandmother's love, to a wife's love, they hold our families and I our lives together. God knows what this world would be like if only men existed or if women acted and felt just like men.

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Originally Posted by ktd222

I can totally get behind this idea, except that I don't think its out of the realm of possibility for a man to act in this manner.

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Oh yes. Of course. But my point was that it was very unlikely that he would speak these thought, even if true, to her.

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Originally Posted by ktd222

Ya, whats interesting is that even though there are nine "I's" and nine"you's," the sound created by the 'I' is more pronounced than the 'you'. Isn't this something poetic thats happening in this poem?

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They seem equally prominant to me. Perhaps "I" might be a shade more prominant.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

They seem equally prominant to me. Perhaps "I" might be a shade more prominant.

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The 'I' is whats being stressed in this poem. I can't believe you can't hear this.

I was wondering how long it would take before Unnamable came along with a reality check and a quote from Donne (who was obviously just reiterating this "feminist cliche" about men ;) ).

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He boasts openly (but only to other men) that he sleeps with a different woman at least twice a week and adds that none of them has a waist larger than 24 inches (we are all supposed to admire this)

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What a nauseating individual--not to mention a deadly dull conversationalist. If only all like minded men had such requirements. It would save those of us with a larger than 24" waist the bother of having to tell them to get lost. :lol:

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well this poem makes me sad. Is it forever to be that man and woman cannot be like children and just open up to one another and not have a double agenda. Must the very act of sexual contact make man or woman a liar, a fake, a manipulator to receive a temporary orgasm that is forgotten ten seconds later while the wound they inflict upon the other-even if the other does not know it but somehow feels diminished-is to last forever.
It almost makes me think-why bother.why bother if you acted in honesty and kindness and the other acted as if you were a notch on the wall, an obscene joke.

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Don't give up Rachel. Remember there are good people out there, both men and women, and good relationships are possible, just hard to come by sometimes. :nod:

I certainly won't, I was just expressing what I have heard so many say. I do understand that it is a great risk and takes courage to just be honest about who you are and what you want from someone. Why men or women think they have to lie and tell the other person what he or she wants to hear just to get either sexual thrills or money or security is something I cannot, maybe never will comprehend. Just speak the truth and if the other person doesn't like that or want that well then move on.
And the way they hate each other afterwards, at least some of my friends, well I am glad that I have chosen to be alone for these years and take my time.I could care less if I am made fun of, I have my dignity and my integrity-and besides there are too many men and women showing up at my house with tears flowing down their poor faces from having been used. It keeps me quite busy!
you are the best of friends dear Love and I know that whoever has the honor of taking your hand one day won't be anything like that.

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My Shorter Oxford gives similar details but in more detail - there is a distinct meaning of 'Remain plunged, take delight or indulge unrestrainedly in vice, sensuality, pleasure, misery, etc; revel in.', which sort of fits, except that he doesn't wallow in her, he wallows her. Still it wouldn't be the first instance of a poet using a word slightly out of context to drag in its associations.

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My etymological instincts were awakened after reading the discussion about the definition of wallow above in the thread. I went to the online OED and found that there is indeed a definition of it being used as a transitive verb the way it is in the poem (and a lot of other interesting definitions I won't list here). To wallow somebody is to roll them around or to "cause them to lie prostrate in some liquid or sticky substance," also "to make dirty by wallowing." Most of the examples given are reflexive, as in "he wallowed himself in sin," though there are some like this in which one person wallows another. I think in this poem though, there's also the sense of the word being used as him "wallowing in" with the "in" missing just as Xamonas suggested. In any case I think I should send a friend of mine who does some work for the OED the line from this poem to include in the examples for the definition of this word. It would spice things up for bored dictionary readers. :brow:

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I certainly won't, I was just expressing what I have heard so many say. I do understand that it is a great risk and takes courage to just be honest about who you are and what you want from someone. Why men or women think they have to lie and tell the other person what he or she wants to hear just to get either sexual thrills or money or security is something I cannot, maybe never will comprehend. Just speak the truth and if the other person doesn't like that or want that well then move on.
And the way they hate each other afterwards, at least some of my friends, well I am glad that I have chosen to be alone for these years and take my time.I could care less if I am made fun of, I have my dignity and my integrity-and besides there are too many men and women showing up at my house with tears flowing down their poor faces from having been used. It keeps me quite busy!

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Good for you Rachel. And I'm sure your heart-broken friends appreciate your sympathetic shoulder to cry on.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Well, let me ask you this. On what basis would you prefer relationships to be formed? I can only think of three general types: on love, on financial/status (and I don't necessarily mean prostitution), and lust. Perhaps there are others. Real relationships may share some element of each, but the only one that I meaningful is love.

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“There is no more usual basis of matrimony than a mutual misunderstanding.” - Henry James

To be honest, perhaps it would be better if relationships were not formed at all. The way I see it, women are like potato chips – they come in all sorts of flavours and we all probably have a favourite. However, no one wants to eat ‘Cheese ‘n’ Onion’ time after time. It’s good to try a packet of ‘Salt ‘n’ Vinegar’ now and again, as well. I agree that some women might be more like a fine, three-course meal than a bag of what we Brits call ‘crisps’, but often I really don’t want a fine meal – I’d prefer to stuff my face with junk food. That’s why God created bimbos. They are the sexual equivalent of a ‘Big Mac’.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Frankly that's what I find most endearing about women. From a mother's love, to a grandmother's love, to a wife's love, they hold our families and I our lives together. God knows what this world would be like if only men existed or if women acted and felt just like men.

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How sweet! And not at all patronising to the gentler sex. :D

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Originally Posted by The Unnamable

“Hope not for mind in women; at their best
Sweetness and wit, they are but mummy, possess'd.”
John Donne Love's Alchemy

For ‘possess’d’ read ‘wallowed’.

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That is a lot more meat on the table than we had before.

Its goes against my instincts to jump into a debate about relationships rather than simply study the actual meat in the poem, the object. However, I now have an excuse like everyone else. If this poem was written three hundred years ago, would it fuel up the same thoughts, or close? Unnamable does not need to be polite about it, being blunt is needed while people have fogged up notions. There do exist plenty of walking around examples to show its true. Our own unedited social engineering today, still includes mothers telling their daughters its profitable to be a bimbo and fathers telling their sons its a strength to notch up bed posts. The problem is, children are taught one way to behave, then retaught another way... or left to educate themselves. I don't know which is worse, but education is a start, because with that, they 'might' develop a brain to discern a good act against a bad one, and if granddad and grandmom passed down some of their painful experience, just maybe that would help develop some strength of character to say 'no'. There is no clear definition of how to be, act and behave. And, we allow that, don't we.. promote the spirit of independence. So, we do it to ourselves, should slap our own faces, get used to it.

I want to add a comment about anger that I find applicable here. I believe there is an equivalent hate to love in the same person. A person's great love turns to that same person's great hate, with an equal force. I am not going to try and measure it, just say that it is the same brain loving that is hating. I guess with time, the brain would have changed itself, maybe mellowed in acceptance.

This is also one of the reasons why I refrain from pointing the finger soley at 'him', and agree with Melanie and others with regard to 'her' involvement. After digesting this idea that KAP was 'more' venemous in her portrayal of him to us because of her emotional condition, I still must conclude that it is 'him' talking. And, right or wrong, all reasons aside, that is how the author wanted 'him' portrayed to us. Therefore, he is being a pig, as presented, and in the lack of other information, and 'her' portrayal, which would only make him 'fair' or 'not fair'.

And, I need to be blunt here too. I know plenty of people that talk cr*p to each other.. and actually love each other like crazy, fall about themselves to sniff the air that person walked in. Love is a crazy notion, and the hate wallowed is equally crazy.

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Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe

It is by no means just women that fall for 'charm'. I found this particularly interesting - it appears to be true that when a man's blood rushes elsewhere, his brain is left deprived. ;)

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Vampires do exist! Love bitten, smitten, and it's victim left pale.