Eternal damnation is not a threat. It's a choice.
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Eternal damnation is not a threat. It's a choice.
If there is no God, then there is no right and wrong. Right and wrong would be reduced to how many more people support a certain stance on an issue compared to the support of another angle. Might makes right, basically. Do you really believe might makes right? People's views change throughout history--they support one thing and reject another, adopt this doctrine and throw out the one they've known for years, become more open-minded here and more closed-minded there, etc. Is right and wrong really so petty that it is influenced by the phases of the moon? Is there no rational absolute? Is it based only on law, emotion, and social niceties? What if one can get beyond all that and do what he wants? What if he can commit a horrible act and be sure he can get away with it? Why should he not do it? What is stopping him if law and conscience are not? What justice is there for those who get away with murder, rape, and genocide?Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
And what about those sick people who kill their family and then suicide? If life ends when the body dies, and there is nothing left to face, why does any of it matter? Why should they care how it will affect those still living--family and friends? They won't even be around to think about anything anymore. When they die, so does everybody else. I think that is a very dangerous philosophy.
And, by the way, what is right and wrong to you? I can guarantee that we have very different stances on various issues. Is there such a thing to you? Or is it all just, "I personally believe this is wrong, but that's just me." There can be no other way if you don't believe in immortality. There can only be right and wrong if there is a being who has authority over us mortals. That's the only way.
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Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
That would mean that philosophical rationalism - "having a conscience" - would be impossible without the belief in a singular omniscient deity - a concept with which roughly half a billion Buddhists might take issue.
Why does that matter? I'm just talking about ideas. Why should I care if I offend a Buddhist, or anyone else? People offend me all the time. They have every right to offend me, as I have the right to offend them with my ideas.
But what good is a conscience if there is no higher being to guide it? Is the truth in ourselves? A lot of people think that, and they still have all sorts of different ideas about right and wrong.
Of course there is. If a religious zealot beats me up for expressing an atheist view, then they are wrong, in my opinion. As I live in a civilised society, the forces of law would probably agree with me, and the religious zealot would get locked up. There is no absolute right or wrong, but that doesn't stop people & societies from defining right and wrong, and acting on those definitions.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
But individuals in a democracy are not mighty, so they tend to agree that beating people up, because of their views, should be outlawed, or they themselves might got beaten up. In a democracy, an agreement to treat each other decently "makes right", and this doesn't need religious fanaticism to back it up.Quote:
Right and wrong would be reduced to how many more people support a certain stance on an issue compared to the support of another angle. Might makes right, basically.
There has been some progress. People have slowly, and painfully, learned how to treat people better. Slavery ends, child labour is halted, women get the vote, atheists are allowed to attend Cambridge and are not thrown out for writing atheist pamphlets (as happened to Shelley...)Quote:
People's views change throughout history--they support one thing and reject another, adopt this doctrine and throw out the one they've known for years, become more open-minded here and more closed-minded there, etc.
Law and emotion can be powerful, and habits of virtuous behaviour can be built up from childhood, even in atheists :). I feel no inclination to perform murder, rape, or genocide (!)Quote:
Is right and wrong ... based only on law, emotion, and social niceties?
Atheists have a conscience! It's this kind of argument, put forward by moderate Christians, that leads to atheists being persecuted. Christian extremists take the argument and say, "I agree, he doesn't have a conscience, burn him!"Quote:
What if one can get beyond all that and do what he wants? What if he can commit a horrible act and be sure he can get away with it? Why should he not do it? What is stopping him if law and conscience are not?
How can he be certain of getting beyond law? Look at all the tyrants who have fallen recently, even running a country doesn't let you off scot free. Think of Sadam, even when he was running Iraq he was always in fear of his life. If you treat people badly you must fear being badly treated yourself. That said, some people might get away with external justice being imposed on them, so we must continually defend justice. If a tyrant dies comfortably in his bed it's an incentive for us to try better at dethroning tyrants, and not retreat into fanatical religious quetism by trying to instill the belief, "he'll get his in hell", when there is no evidence that this will happen.Quote:
What justice is there for those who get away with murder, rape, and genocide?
If you are are a German civilian facing the allied march on Germany in WWII and encounter a badge-wearing, atheist, British trooper with a gun, would you think (i) "He's wearing an atheist badge, there's no hope" or (ii) "I hope he has a conscience". I'm betting you would think (ii), because you would think having a conscience is a good thing, even if it's an atheist conscience.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
This moral philosophy is grievously defective and dangerous. Behaving according to a rational ethical system is naturally rewarding to many among the religious and non-believers alike. One does so because it feels good, allows one to respect oneself, and makes life better for oneself and others. It is the basis of any high functioning society. It is something that should be expected of every adult human being. Those who need the threat of violence from a supernatural being to keep themselves in line exhibit the moral development of children. Dogs can learn the code of morality you espouse if one is willing to beat them enough. Human beings should aim higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
1) If there is no absolute right and wrong, then there is no right and wrong. It's made up. And notice how you say, "in my opinion." What if the religious zealot says "Well, in my opinion, I'm right"? What are you going to say to him or her? I'm not condoning religious zealots harassing atheists, by any means. It's pointless and barbaric.Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
2) Once again, might makes right. That doesn't make it right. Lots of countries have different views about what's right and wrong. Who's right?
3) Slavery still goes on, by the way. And where you think that Christians had no part in this progress is beyond me. Look at reverend MLK.
4) I believe everyone has a conscience. Where did I ever say that they don't? All I'm saying is if someone doesn't believe in immortality (God), then their conscience doesn't mean much. It's reduced to being a product of your upbringing, environment, and DNA. It's not worth much then if it's formulated by such petty things.
5) People get beyond the law everyday. Many people commit heinous crimes and die comfortably in their beds having never gone to prison.
How am I supposed to know what I'd think in such a situation if have never experienced it? But, yes, I would probably think the latter, sort of.I don't believe there is such a thing as an "atheist" conscience, whatever that means. You seem to think that I believe atheists are morally-depraved animals. Many atheists are very humane and kind people. I love atheists, too. My sister is a self-proclaimed atheist. I love her with all my heart. Why would you think I would look at an atheist as some second-class citizen?Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
Is that the only reason why someone should do something "ethical" because it's rewarding and makes them feel good? Some people out there don't feel very good when helping an individual or contributing to society. What are you going to tell them to convince them otherwise? What logical reason are you going to give them as to why they're wrong? Some people like raping, murdering, lying, and doing various other horrible things. The only reason you can give that person is "It's just the nice thing to do." That's not a reason. If someone can be an *** and then be dead for eternity, then why are they obligated to be kind, selfless, and forgiving? Why shouldn't they just live the life they want, no matter how virtuous or heinous it might be?Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattGwyon
And believe it or not, there is a lot that we can learn from little children. You don't give them enough credit.
I know slavery still goes on, and where do I say Christians had no part in progress? (Of course, only some Christians pushed for progress, and only in some aspects, and progress was very slow, and held up by Christians in general.) Until recent times, in much of Europe and the USA you had to be a Christian, or pretend to be, to be part of anything. For instance, you couldn't be an atheist student at Cambridge, in the early 19th century, as Shelley found out.Quote:
3) Slavery still goes on, by the way. And where you think that Christians had no part in this progress is beyond me. Look at reverend MLK.
A conscience doesn't mean much if its based on the fictional orders on a non-existent sky daddy.Quote:
4) I believe everyone has a conscience. Where did I ever say that they don't? All I'm saying is if someone doesn't believe in immortality (God), then their conscience doesn't mean much. It's reduced to being a product of your upbringing, environment, and DNA. It's not worth much then if it's formulated by such petty things.
Because you say things like: "if someone doesn't believe in immortality (God), then their conscience doesn't mean much."Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
It's rational to act ethically, and most people have the ability to use rationality. But you don't need to convince the hard core of irrational sociopaths, just pay them well to do a job that leads to good outcomes for everyone. And make sure you have a sufficiently punitive prison system to keep their minds on what will happen if they act out. Christianity didn't work any better than our current system at keeping sociopaths on the straight and narrow, just look at all the crime in earlier times when Christianity was the dominant ideology!Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
Lol there must have been a reason why so many people were burned at the stake...not to mention being hung drawn and quartered.
@Mal4mac But it doesn't mean much. They might act according to their own morale, but that doesn't mean their conscience is any better than someone else's, or makes their conscience right. Everyone's conscience is different. Not all beliefs are the same, I'm sorry.
And that's pretty ballsy of you to say that God is a fictional, non-existent being. How do you know that? Are you God? How do you have so much knowledge to know that he doesn't exist? It's one thing entirely to say you don't believe in God, and another thing to say he doesn't exist. Keep that in mind.
@Delta40
Yeah, it sucks that people were persecuted and killed for not being Christians, but I hope you do know that Christ never taught that and that such monstrosity is completely contradictory to Christianity. And please don't begin to pull out OT Bible verses like most people end up doing. It's utterly embarrassing and easy to refute.
Would you consider it "ballsy" to deny the existence of the tooth fairy? Actually, I don't know anything "for sure". But the existence of Yahweh, for me, is about as likely as the existence of Zeus or the tooth fairy, or the actual existence of truly fictional character like Alice in Wonderland or Bugs Bunny. In these cases, I think it's a fair enough to say these are all fictional, non-existent characters; that's what I believe!Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
What about the recent persecution of atheist students at the LSE Fresher's Fair? Would Christ have kicked them out for wearing a Jesus & Mo t-shirt? My guess is he might have, he has a track record of persecuting people by kicking them out of buildings, i.e., the money changers in the temple. Who's he to say how a building should be used? What a thug! Money changers are useful people, try going to France without using them.Quote:
Yeah, it sucks that people were persecuted and killed for not being Christians, but I hope you do know that Christ never taught that...
If you're comparing God to the tooth-fairy, it just shows that you haven't thought about the existence of a higher being all that much and all that seriously. And that's fine and whatnot to not believe in God, I don't care, but please say something a little smarter than that. God, particularly the Christian God, gives us an absolute reason why we must be humble, love each other, forgive one another, look after the most vulnerable and helpless of society, be slow to anger and not hate, and why suffering on this earth makes sense. Not only that, but Christianity has a god that has done all those things. You don't believe in God, fine, but how could you even compare him to the tooth-fairy? Has the tooth-fairy ever saved anyone or done anything significant besides putting a quarter under someone's pillow in the middle of the night?
Christians are persecuted too, whether it be at your typical college campus in America or being blow-up or shot in predominately Muslim countries. It happens, believe it or not, especially if you're a Christian who actually takes his faith seriously. Persecution is not good from any side, my friend. I understand. You're shot and killed in some places of the world too.
So, you are saying the christian god has saved people?Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
When did this happen?
Well I did mention Zeus. Why believe in God rather than Zeus? There are actually modern stoics who proclaim a belief in Zeus. Or why not Allah or Odin? Why so many Gods? It's because they don't exist, because there is no evidence for any one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
Yes, all for not believing in some God, or believing in a different God. Give up believing in any God, and maybe some of this irrational violence will go away, there would then be no religious excuse for it.Quote:
Christians are persecuted too, whether it be at your typical college campus in America or being blow-up or shot in predominately Muslim countries...
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Originally Posted by The Atheist
Long before your Spaghetti Monster started reading Ayn Rand.
http://www.medievalbooks.org/fsm.gif
There are certain religions that have better arguments than others. Christianity, by far, has the strongest arguments in defense of religion. And once again, you can't say something doesn't exist if you can't prove it in the same way that I can't say I can prove God exists, but I believe that he does exist. There's a major difference there.Quote:
Originally Posted by mal4mac
And without God, everything is permitted. I don't know how you think in a world without religion people will become more civilized and compassionate. Look at all the wars done in the name of communism. The most barbaric statist atheistic communist dictators sought to wipe out religion, and that idea has killed more people in the 20th century than all of the religious wars combined. Think about that.
Have you read the Pali Canon? Or the Upanishads? Or Plato? Or Aristotle? Or the Koran? I've attempted to understand the main religious arguments of all of these in attempt to find better arguments than those of Christian authors. I have certainly found these in Plato, Aristotle & Buddhism. Of course Christianity tried to steal the best bits of Plato & Aristotle, but diluted their arguments with a lot "tooth fairy nonsense" like virgin birth, resurrection, whatever... Of course since Descartes, Kant, Darwin, Nietzsche, Russell et. al. even the the religious arguments of the Ancient Greeks & Buddhists can't stand up to the skeptical assault of atheist arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
Uhm look at all the wars in the name of religion. Don't flatter yourself. Why not admit that conflict is a natural state like happiness?
belief is a funny thing and do not forget just as we believe we also disbelieve just as easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
that is not true. the worst wars were in the name of religion and they still go on today.it is called fanatism and terrorism. that is what religion does. it gives people the incentive to go on a rampage just like communism. it is exactly the same. religion is an institution just like communism. there is no difference there.Quote:
And without God, everything is permitted. I don't know how you think in a world without religion people will become more civilized and compassionate. Look at all the wars done in the name of communism. The most barbaric statist atheistic communist dictators sought to wipe out religion, and that idea has killed more people in the 20th century than all of the religious wars combined. Think about that.
and god does not keep people saine or disorganised god is just another subject to talk about.
juts like politics it is a concept to monopolise control and build and destroy.
what kind of life is this if god is a notion that controls feelings and thoughts? not much I would say I think I need to start living a life that I cant think and decide for myself away from religion and politics for that matter.
the other thing to consider is this you may believe in god but I do not think god believes in anyone and that is the bottom line.
That's like saying the English language is by far a superior language than any other and should therefore negate all other languages.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop
Language and religion are a LITTLE different, don't you think? People who think all religions are the same are the same people who don't want to think. Somehow it's offensive in today's world to believe that some beliefs are better than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
People experience the world through the language they speak. You're the one who made the claim that Christianity trumps other beliefs, not me.
Look at all the petty wars in the name of any thing. Don't be ridiculous. ROFLMAOQuote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
A boy walked along with his father and asked, "Do you believe in God?" The father thought for a moment and answered by pointing to an anthill in the sidewalk at their feet, with several lines of tiny ants moving about in orderly lines as they carried out their ant duties.
"Do you see those ants?" he asked. "They live in the same world we do, in the same structures, eating the same foods, and yet they could no more describe you or I than we could describe a God. If one is there at all, God's existence is not dependent on us or our belief. And our existence is not his chief concern. Have you ever noticed the ants before?" The boy shook his head and the father asked, "Do you think they notice us standing here watching them?" The boy again said no.
The father reached out with the tip of his shoe and swiped at the anthill, destroying it and killing many ants, sending the others scurrying into a frenzy of activity. "Do they notice us NOW?" He asked. Without waiting for an answer he continued, "This is the nature of our relationship with whatever god may exist. If he is real, we may never know until such times as he decides, by design or misstep, to send us to ruin. And even then, any rage we may feel would be impotent and unheard. And any god that exists would notice us only if he accidentally stepped on our world, and even then only briefly and without caring. So we do what these ants are doing now: acknowledge that there are forces much greater than we can comprehend, clean up our dead, rebuild our homes and hope he doesn't step on us again."
Outstanding analogy!
I have said so many times that the christian god treats humans exactly as humans treat an ant-farm, and here you are putting in exactly those terms.
Gloucester -- from King Lear:
Speaking of ants (and other eusocial insects), their cooperative nature may be the result of hapilodiploidy, a form of reproduction in which males have no fathers (they are born from unfertilized eggs). Here's a superb New Yorker article about it (unfortunately available in full only to subscribers):Quote:
As flies to wanton boys are we to th' gods, They kill us for their sport.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...a_fact_lehrer/
A boy walked along with his father and asked, "Do you believe in God?"
So does that count as a yes? or perhaps a no? Hadn`t a straightforward answer sufficed? It is not smooth following for but it gets worse and even murkier when people like the father comes up with their own set of theories to define religion and/or people their beliefs/views.Quote:
The father thought for a moment and answered by pointing to an anthill in the sidewalk at their feet, with several lines of tiny ants moving about in orderly lines as they carried out their ant duties.
"Do you see those ants?" he asked. "They live in the same world we do, in the same structures, eating the same foods, and yet they could no more describe you or I than we could describe a God. If one is there at all, God's existence is not dependent on us or our belief. And our existence is not his chief concern. Have you ever noticed the ants before?" The boy shook his head and the father asked, "Do you think they notice us standing here watching them?" The boy again said no.
The father reached out with the tip of his shoe and swiped at the anthill, destroying it and killing many ants, sending the others scurrying into a frenzy of activity. "Do they notice us NOW?" He asked. Without waiting for an answer he continued, "This is the nature of our relationship with whatever god may exist. If he is real, we may never know until such times as he decides, by design or misstep, to send us to ruin. And even then, any rage we may feel would be impotent and unheard. And any god that exists would notice us only if he accidentally stepped on our world, and even then only briefly and without caring. So we do what these ants are doing now: acknowledge that there are forces much greater than we can comprehend, clean up our dead, rebuild our homes and hope he doesn't step on us again."
The father should, perhaps, have said, "They could no more describe you or ME than we could describe God." I hope the anecdote is not meant to disparage the language skills of agnostics.
My more vulgar opinion is that the God as it is imagined by man is a petulant little boy standing over an anthill, only taking notice of it when he remembers to bring his magnifying glass in order to burn a few dozen.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
The answer is, there is no answer that would satisfy or even matter. The better question would be, does God notice if we believe? And if he does, is he immediately dismissed from deity status by his own vanity?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleeding Pawn
The devil made me do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecurb