Who's excited about J K Rowling's new book?

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

That proves absolutely nothing. That's not evidence of artistic merit. More people eat at McDonald's in one day than will eat at the finest restaurants in a year. Am I to assume that such is proof of the great cuisine offered under the Golden Arches?

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I've only ever eaten their french fries, chicken mcnuggets, and hamburgers; and those were some of the finest examples of their kind. Admittedly, they aren't the most difficult culinary dishes to produce, but I have to wonder if they don't get more mileage, produce more pleasure, than some of the more finesse and work heavy dishes. I mean, just a regular apple or a pineapple is already pretty good. And sometimes people slave away being inventive, burning endless calories on something that in the end isn't as appetizing as a simple bologna sandwich. I'm not saying that's true of the finest restaurants, where the chefs are artists and know how to get the most flavor out of every apple and pineapple. What I'm saying is that McDonalds shouldn't be despised for being the best at making the most appetizing food that's also simple and cheap to make.

Hey... I eat McDonald's... but it's not like I'm going to suggest that the food is great or anything. I'm hooked on those damn frappes... but Starbuck's are better... and any bar makes better burgers. But sometimes I just gotta eat and run. If there was something faster and comparably priced in the area...

So are you suggesting that McDonalds is on your top-10 list of finest places to eat, and that the Harry Potter novels are going to replace Hemingway among your favorite works of literature?

I can't eat McDonalds, and very rarely eat fast food. The thought of it usually makes me feel a bit queasy. I do love White Castle though, ironically.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

I've only ever eaten their french fries, chicken mcnuggets, and hamburgers; and those were some of the finest examples of their kind. Admittedly, they aren't the most difficult culinary dishes to produce, but I have to wonder if they don't get more mileage, produce more pleasure, than some of the more finesse and work heavy dishes. I mean, just a regular apple or a pineapple is already pretty good. And sometimes people slave away being inventive, burning endless calories on something that in the end isn't as appetizing as a simple bologna sandwich. I'm not saying that's true of the finest restaurants, where the chefs are artists and know how to get the most flavor out of every apple and pineapple. What I'm saying is that McDonalds shouldn't be despised for being the best at making the most appetizing food that's also simple and cheap to make.

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Still as a gourmet who eats McDonald's, I realize my most memorable meals in terms of food are decidedly not at McDonalds. I can eat a big Mac, but it is not a steak dinner in a French restaurant. The argument is you are happy when you eat Mcd's but you never are left with a lasting impression of something special. For the child who is deprived of extravagant meals, McDonald's is a heaven on earth - it is happiness, but as pallets mature, it is more of a quick convenience.

Now books are virtually free. There is no class divide in terms of the physical book. Education in many countries is also quite reasonable ( Canada and most of Europe) so study is no longer a restriction for the rich. Likewise, online alternative education can do what universities can do to teach one to read, pretty much, as can other books.

From that perspective, I want my books well written. I want them all to be special and memorable. I no longer have the time to read light reading. My light reading is commentary, not primary works. My heavy reading is primary texts. I want all my books to develop my pallet and change me somewhat.

Think of it like drinking a bottle of Italian wine. You can sip the bottle, or eat it with some olives cheese and prosciutto. The effect is different, but somehow you need to learn how to drink it the right way.

I am someone who remembers every good meal he has ever eaten. I remember a steak dinner in Vientiane, or even a fancy chengdu hotpot in a garden in the old alleys of the city. I remember eating lamb and roasted chicken with dozens of deserts and snacks in kashgar, and eating delicious seafood on the beaches of Bali. But I cannot remember a single particular instance of something special from McDonald's. Even though I have eaten it hundreds of times and still do.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Hey... I eat McDonald's... but it's not like I'm going to suggest that the food is great or anything. I'm hooked on those damn frappes... but Starbuck's are better... and any bar makes better burgers. But sometimes I just gotta eat and run. If there was something faster and comparably priced in the area...

So are you suggesting that McDonalds is on your top-10 list of finest places to eat, and that the Harry Potter novels are going to replace Hemingway among your favorite works of literature?

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I don't know that there is that much variability in terms of hamburgers. I've eaten thousands over decades in dozens of different venues. It's kind of hard to mess up and it's usually about a 7 in terms of flavor. You can make it greasy or burn it or cover it in garbage but for the most part it's still the same animal between two slices of bread whether you get it at McDonalds or a bar. What drink you have with it might make more of a difference than where you get your burger.

*I don't want to seem ignorant about burgers suggesting it's all the same. I do realize that there is a noticeably different taste between grill and barbecue, propane vs charcoal, but the point remains there's not much to it.

**I'll also admit that I've never had a hamburger from either 5 Guys, or In-N-Out-Burger, which are by all accounts outstanding.

Honestly, I don't think I even have a top 10 places to eat. Does home count? There's one or two pizza places I used to eat at in college which were great, but usually when I dine out at glitzy restaurants I'm just annoyed by the prices and feel like I'm paying for ambiance and window dressing more than for the food.

But then, we are sort of comparing apples and oranges. Most people can afford a Hemingway novel but can't buy a $400 bottle of wine to make a comparison with Budweiser.

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Originally Posted by JBI

Still as a gourmet who eats McDonald's, I realize my most memorable meals in terms of food are decidedly not at McDonalds. I can eat a big Mac, but it is not a steak dinner in a French restaurant. The argument is you are happy when you eat Mcd's but you never are left with a lasting impression of something special. For the child who is deprived of extravagant meals, McDonald's is a heaven on earth - it is happiness, but as pallets mature, it is more of a quick convenience.

Now books are virtually free. There is no class divide in terms of the physical book. Education in many countries is also quite reasonable ( Canada and most of Europe) so study is no longer a restriction for the rich. Likewise, online alternative education can do what universities can do to teach one to read, pretty much, as can other books.

From that perspective, I want my books well written. I want them all to be special and memorable. I no longer have the time to read light reading. My light reading is commentary, not primary works. My heavy reading is primary texts. I want all my books to develop my pallet and change me somewhat.

Think of it like drinking a bottle of Italian wine. You can sip the bottle, or eat it with some olives cheese and prosciutto. The effect is different, but somehow you need to learn how to drink it the right way.

I am someone who remembers every good meal he has ever eaten. I remember a steak dinner in Vientiane, or even a fancy chengdu hotpot in a garden in the old alleys of the city. I remember eating lamb and roasted chicken with dozens of deserts and snacks in kashgar, and eating delicious seafood on the beaches of Bali. But I cannot remember a single particular instance of something special from McDonald's. Even though I have eaten it hundreds of times and still do.

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I just baked a bunch of chocolate chip cookies. They're pretty good, but not especially memorable.

I can't remember every good meal I've ever had, and not every good meal is memorable. I will say that about fifteen years ago Boston Market had the best corn bread I've ever tasted. It was sweet and the texture was just the right consistency, not crumbly but not stale or mushy either. And it went very well with their slices of honey baked ham. They served very good raviolis every Wednesday in the seventh grade lunch cafeteria, and every Thursday in the sixth grade I had the best cinnamon rolls ever. Other than that, about the only special meal I can think of is the first time I ate cheddar cheese and green apples together and they somehow combined and made each other better.

:D

Why does it have to be Macburger vs Haute Cusine? What about a delicious home cooked meal, a fabulous fruitcake, a lovely stew made of all kinds of good things skillfully mixed up together?

Edit: Not much to the point, or maybe it is, but for those of you who enjoy a good send-up, here's one of the Da Vinci code. I chanced upon it this morning and it cracked me up. http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/11/2...inci-code.html

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

I've only ever eaten their french fries, chicken mcnuggets, and hamburgers; and those were some of the finest examples of their kind. Admittedly, they aren't the most difficult culinary dishes to produce, but I have to wonder if they don't get more mileage, produce more pleasure, than some of the more finesse and work heavy dishes. I mean, just a regular apple or a pineapple is already pretty good. And sometimes people slave away being inventive, burning endless calories on something that in the end isn't as appetizing as a simple bologna sandwich. I'm not saying that's true of the finest restaurants, where the chefs are artists and know how to get the most flavor out of every apple and pineapple. What I'm saying is that McDonalds shouldn't be despised for being the best at making the most appetizing food that's also simple and cheap to make.

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I feel like I may be pushing the analogy beyond breaking point, but here it goes...

The main issue for me with fastfood (and particularly that provided by McDonalds) has nothing to do with the taste, but the fact that they are supremely unhealthy. If you've never seen the documentary film Super Size Me, then I urge you to do so: it is a revelation. The reason I never eat fastfood is because of the sheer amount of damage it can do to you. There is something so insidious about it all: they cram their products full of fat and salt to make it as addictive as possible, but the actual nutritional content is so low that you might as well have eaten the cardboard packet it all comes in.

Now to bring this stilted, tottering analogy back to literature: just because something proves an addictive enjoyment to a very great many people does not mean it is either quality or, more importantly, healthy. 50 Shades of Grey is perhaps the best example of this at the moment: mind-bendingly popular, and yet a shockingly poorly written work of sinister drivel that glamourises violent and oppressive relationships, and overturns half a century of feminism. It is, in a very meaningful sense, poisonous. Now, 50 Shades is a very different beast from HP - I don't think anyone here would disagree that about their relative merits: 50 Shades is to Harry Potter what excrement is to cream. But nevertheless the point I am trying to make is that HP has something of McDonald's about it as well. It is fine taken as it is, but it should not be one's sole diet: the people who read HP and its analogues, but nothing else, will be as unhealthy as those who live on McDonalds alone.

Mortal You are so American in culinary habits.

In the past 5 or so years the burger in Canada has transitioned. We now demand a higher quality of meat, preferably organic, and we want fresher everything.

McDonald's is not the same, and in Canada it is not even cheap like it is in the states. In Russia I hear it is luxury food, and here in china people go on dates to McDonalds

That being said, it still is not part of culinary culture. McDonald's culture is of two kinds, quick and cheap, or alluring to children. Anything greasy is tasty as we have evolved to enjoy the taste of fats. Its part of human biology. That does not make it good though.

We are not reading all the time. Reading a good book aught to be regarded in the same vain as watching good films or going to good restaurants. If you need something quick, you could just as easily watch tv and not bother. Harry potter is that quick junk, but when you start calling it the real deal, you have a problem. Reading is the most affordable way to enjoy art, therefore I see no reason to need to read thevfastfood of literature.

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Originally Posted by JBI

Mortal You are so American in culinary habits.

In the past 5 or so years the burger in Canada has transitioned. We now demand a higher quality of meat, preferably organic, and we want fresher everything.

McDonald's is not the same, and in Canada it is not even cheap like it is in the states. In Russia I hear it is luxury food, and here in china people go on dates to McDonalds

That being said, it still is not part of culinary culture. McDonald's culture is of two kinds, quick and cheap, or alluring to children. Anything greasy is tasty as we have evolved to enjoy the taste of fats. Its part of human biology. That does not make it good though.

We are not reading all the time. Reading a good book aught to be regarded in the same vain as watching good films or going to good restaurants. If you need something quick, you could just as easily watch tv and not bother. Harry potter is that quick junk, but when you start calling it the real deal, you have a problem. Reading is the most affordable way to enjoy art, therefore I see no reason to need to read thevfastfood of literature.

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On one occasion I was in China and the people I was staying with suggested that I accompany their young son to a Kentucky Fried Chicken outlet near to a supermarket where I wanted to buy some bottles French wine.
It was National Children's Day and the KFC shop was bulging with kids buying fried chicken. It seems that Colonel Sanders is almost as revered by children as Mao was by their elders; I even have a photo somewhere of a life size model of the colonel standing outside one of his establishments in Hangzhou.

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Originally Posted by Lokasenna

I feel like I may be pushing the analogy beyond breaking point, but here it goes...

The main issue for me with fastfood (and particularly that provided by McDonalds) has nothing to do with the taste, but the fact that they are supremely unhealthy. If you've never seen the documentary film Super Size Me, then I urge you to do so: it is a revelation.

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Ah, Super Size Me, just...good...science. Entertaining movie but about as full of facts as McDonalds food is full of nutrition.

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Originally Posted by Lokasenna

The reason I never eat fastfood is because of the sheer amount of damage it can do to you. There is something so insidious about it all: they cram their products full of fat and salt to make it as addictive as possible, but the actual nutritional content is so low that you might as well have eaten the cardboard packet it all comes in.

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If eating a hamburger makes you sick, then the problem is with your digestion not the hamburger. And it's not the same as easting cardboard. It has beef which is full of protein. Meat and bread are two of the major food groups and part of most healthy diets.

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Originally Posted by Lokasenna

Now to bring this stilted, tottering analogy back to literature: just because something proves an addictive enjoyment to a very great many people does not mean it is either quality or, more importantly, healthy. 50 Shades of Grey is perhaps the best example of this at the moment: mind-bendingly popular, and yet a shockingly poorly written work of sinister drivel that glamourises violent and oppressive relationships, and overturns half a century of feminism. It is, in a very meaningful sense, poisonous. Now, 50 Shades is a very different beast from HP - I don't think anyone here would disagree that about their relative merits: 50 Shades is to Harry Potter what excrement is to cream. But nevertheless the point I am trying to make is that HP has something of McDonald's about it as well. It is fine taken as it is, but it should not be one's sole diet: the people who read HP and its analogues, but nothing else, will be as unhealthy as those who live on McDonalds alone.

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Precisely, it's fine for a treat but should not be your primary diet. And all the hand wringers who demonize it are alarmists and neurotic righteous eaters influenced by current diet fads.

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Originally Posted by JBI

Mortal You are so American in culinary habits.

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It would be more accurate to call me conservative. Many Americans are being suckered by weird new age eating fads as we speak.

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Originally Posted by JBI

In the past 5 or so years the burger in Canada has transitioned. We now demand a higher quality of meat, preferably organic, and we want fresher everything.

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The organic food business is just another swindle.

http://healthland.time.com/2012/09/0...nal-varieties/

You aren't getting better anything. Those organic farms are just taking up space that more efficient modern operations should be using to feed the world and end famine.

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Originally Posted by JBI

McDonald's is not the same, and in Canada it is not even cheap like it is in the states. In Russia I hear it is luxury food, and here in china people go on dates to McDonalds

That being said, it still is not part of culinary culture. McDonald's culture is of two kinds, quick and cheap, or alluring to children. Anything greasy is tasty as we have evolved to enjoy the taste of fats. Its part of human biology. That does not make it good though.

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Not necessarily the best but filling, tasty, affordable, and not harmful in small doses. Just like genre fiction.

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Originally Posted by JBI

We are not reading all the time. Reading a good book aught to be regarded in the same vain as watching good films or going to good restaurants. If you need something quick, you could just as easily watch tv and not bother. Harry potter is that quick junk, but when you start calling it the real deal, you have a problem. Reading is the most affordable way to enjoy art, therefore I see no reason to need to read thevfastfood of literature.

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Reading is probably the cheapest way to experience high art; so there are no economic reasons to read Rowling instead of Homer. However, the harmful effects of Harry Potter and McDonalds are often overstated.

Ok, a couple of things. Not all hamburgers are equal. 5 Guy's Burgers are superior to McDonalds for example. The best burger I've ever eaten was at a diner on Long Island. Usually the best burgers can be found at independent restaurants. The same applies to the best food in most cases.

If the Emperor's New Clothes metaphor is tired, so is the fast food/genre literature metaphor. We've literally seen it in every single Harry Potter and Stephen King thread. This is especially true when it's taken in the direction Lokasenna did, which has also happened in other threads. Eating McDonalds will lead to heart attack and fat waists, reading HP or 50 Shades will not give you a heart attack. Presenting it as a health issue is ridiculous. Even the social health issue he brings up is fairly dubious. Anyone who has paid attention to the arguments of various political literary critics for example knows they often say the same thing about various established works on the canon. So a work might negatively set back social issues and be loaded with negative stereotypes or pernicious ideas, but it isn't clear this is a quality found solely in popular genre fiction.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

I can't eat McDonalds, and very rarely eat fast food. The thought of it usually makes me feel a bit queasy. I do love White Castle though, ironically.

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To use your situation as an example, Mutatis-Mutandis, suppose you and Bloom are going for lunch. You find a place where there is a McDonald's right next to a White Castle.

Suppose Bloom says that White Castle food disgusts him and he loves McDonald's. He will eat there. You say that McDonald's food makes you sick and you will eat at White Castle.

So far that's fine. You both express your disagreements on what you prefer.

But suppose Bloom plays the authority card and says something like this: "You're wrong to eat at White Castle. I've eaten more meals than you have. I eat better than you do. I'm from Yale. Only people who simply will not consume superior fare eat at White Castle. You eat with me at McDonald's."

You might ask Bloom what his evidence is that McDonald's is better than White Castle. Since he feels he has to provide some sort of evidence, he tells you that they put more pickles on their burgers in McDonald's. You know that's pretty lame. Their burgers are bigger. You want to know what other evidence he has. He says, "You're wrong! I don't have time to give you a bite by bite list of reasons for my choice. You should be smart enough to do that yourself."

What do you do? Do you follow Bloom based on his authority and meager evidence into McDonald's (assume he will not pay for your meal) or do you follow your experience and go to White Castle?

I guess my first thought would be that's a stupid analogy. But that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

I guess my first thought would be that's a stupid analogy. But that's just me.

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I don't think the analogy is all that bad.

Here is what Bloom writes about the alternatives he prefers to HP (http://www.fanpop.com/spots/harry-po...s-harold-bloom)

But I will keep in mind that a host are reading it who simply will not read superior fare, such as Kenneth Grahame's "The Wind in the Willows" or the "Alice" books of Lewis Carroll.

So McDonald's is Alice in Wonderland or The Wind in the Willows and White Castle is the HP series. Bloom's preferences were all written over 100 years ago. I suspect if HP were written 100 years ago and one of these were written today, he would be complaining about a different book and using the HP series as his superior fare that people should be reading instead.

Bloom likes Philip Roth, Saramago, Pynchon, Cormac McCarthy and Don DeLillo. Underworld for instance was published in 1997, which is far from being one hundred years ago. It may not be a fantasy or children's book, but it is pretty recent. However, even in Carroll's time the Alice books were already recognized as great literature and were read and appreciated by authors as notorious as Oscar Wilde. Comparing The Importance of Being Earnest with Alice's Adventures in Wonderland or Through the Looking-Glass, one may even find some similarities between the styles of both authors.

Although I do not eat at McDonalds, the emotive part of the issue arises from some people using it as an Anti American platform, which I do not agree with.

I am in Africa on business I will pick out some African owned and operated fast food chains.

South Africa - Chicken Licken and Nandos(which I have seen in Namibia and Botswana as well).

Nigeria - Mr. Biggs(sort of a burger place with "meat pies" (awful stinky place, and Mr. Biggs is bad too).


PS Get me the hell out of Lagos:sad:

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Originally Posted by tonywalt

Although I do not eat at McDonalds, the emotive part of the issue arises from some people using it as an Anti American platform, which I do not agree with.

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^ This.

Also, YesNo, you can take this as my concession. I'm not try to be disrespectful or anything, I just think we've said pretty much all that can be said for our respective sides in this little back and forth. I enjoyed it.

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Originally Posted by tonywalt

Although I do not eat at McDonalds, the emotive part of the issue arises from some people using it as an Anti American platform, which I do not agree with.

I am in Africa on business I will pick out some African owned and operated fast food chains.

South Africa - Chicken Licken and Nandos(which I have seen in Namibia and Botswana as well).

Nigeria - Mr. Biggs(sort of a burger place with "meat pies" (awful stinky place, and Mr. Biggs is bad too).


PS Get me the hell out of Lagos:sad:

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Ah yes. The joys of decolonisation.

Mortal You are so American in culinary habits.

In the past 5 or so years the burger in Canada has transitioned. We now demand a higher quality of meat, preferably organic, and we want fresher everything.

Now JBI... please do not assume that Mortal is by any means representative of American culture and turn this into another US vs Canada diatribe. Anyone that cannot discern a distinct difference between McDonalds' burgers (or those of most fast food chains) and a burger from the average sit-down restaurant, the grill at home, or even the usual bar has no sense of taste whatsoever. I cannot ever recall having a desire to eat at McDonalds or a taste for a McDonalds meal. Its simply a necessary evil: I only have a limited amount of time for a meal and it's the most convenient place at the moment.

Honestly... I can only think of two places where the burgers were less appetizing than McDonalds. The first was in Hoboken, New Jersey... where I was working while living in NYC. I broke for lunch at a dive that featured Latin-American cuisine. I stupidly ordered a burger rather than getting what the locals got. It tasted as if it had been frozen since before I was born. From then on I got the daily special which was always some sort of stew with rice and beans. Cheap, hearty, and quite tasty... if nothing memorable. The other time was at a restaurant called Chuck's... and known by the locals as "Upchucks". It was the only place open at 3 AM and I was drunk... and the burger was still so bad that I couldn't eat more than a few bites.

To use your situation as an example, Mutatis-Mutandis, suppose you and Bloom are going for lunch. You find a place where there is a McDonald's right next to a White Castle.

Suppose Bloom says that White Castle food disgusts him and he loves McDonald's. He will eat there. You say that McDonald's food makes you sick and you will eat at White Castle.

So far that's fine. You both express your disagreements on what you prefer.

But suppose Bloom plays the authority card and says something like this: "You're wrong to eat at White Castle. I've eaten more meals than you have. I eat better than you do. I'm from Yale. Only people who simply will not consume superior fare eat at White Castle. You eat with me at McDonald's."

You analogy is not at all related to the debate over reading the Harry Potter novels vs reading some far better literature. Rather, what you are suggesting is akin to a fantasy in which Bloom says, "Mutatis, why are you wasting your time reading that Harry Potter crap when you could be reading Dan Brown or the Twilight series?" Obviously, such is not going to happen. If we expound on your analogy, Bloom is more likely to say, "Mutatis, do you really like this fast food crap?* There's a lovely little Chinese restaurant around the corner that isn't really well-known, but they serve the most delicious dim-sum. I also know this great little Italian bistro, and if you have the time I assure you the most exquisite dining experience."

(*And Bloom will not need to expound on a point by point analysis of why he thinks fast food is crap because he recognizes that his audience... Mutatis... is fully aware that fast food is crap)

I don't like comparing food to books. Books can be bought by anyone. But gourmet is a luxury. Plus, a lot of people don't live in cities where one can fine 4 star restaurants. Some people are lucky if they can go to a chain restaurant like Logan's or apple-bee's more than once a week. I'm a lower middle class dude myself.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

You analogy is not at all related to the debate over reading the Harry Potter novels vs reading some far better literature. Rather, what you are suggesting is akin to a fantasy in which Bloom says, "Mutatis, why are you wasting your time reading that Harry Potter crap when you could be reading Dan Brown or the Twilight series?"

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OK. I'm curious. What specific works are you referring to when you say "far better literature"?

Bloom is referring to The Wind in the Willows or Alice in Wonderland, but I wonder what you have in mind.

Specifically fantasy. Listing the hundreds of major works is too easy.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

You analogy is not at all related to the debate over reading the Harry Potter novels vs reading some far better literature. Rather, what you are suggesting is akin to a fantasy in which Bloom says, "Mutatis, why are you wasting your time reading that Harry Potter crap when you could be reading Dan Brown or the Twilight series?" Obviously, such is not going to happen. If we expound on your analogy, Bloom is more likely to say, "Mutatis, do you really like this fast food crap?* There's a lovely little Chinese restaurant around the corner that isn't really well-known, but they serve the most delicious dim-sum. I also know this great little Italian bistro, and if you have the time I assure you the most exquisite dining experience."

(*And Bloom will not need to expound on a point by point analysis of why he thinks fast food is crap because he recognizes that his audience... Mutatis... is fully aware that fast food is crap)

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I really don't see fast food as crap. I see it as fast. You seem to look down on it because it's common and prefer any Italian or Chinese restaurant regardless of their quality for the sheer novelty. There is nothing wrong with American food. If you must inject some sort of foreign experience into your meals just remember that pizza comes from Italy and Hamburgers come from Germany and whenever you sample that fare you are being oh so sophisticated and European. Dim sum is full of saturated fat and salt and is a Chinese peasant dish invented as a snack for farmers. It's their equivalent of the doughnut. And what is so special about your Italian bistro? Are you going to have some spaghetti? How is that better for you than a bowl of chili? One is foreign peasant food and the other is local peasant food. How is Teriyaki better than regular deli meat? Ramen is no better than our native chicken noodle soup, and pho was originally sold on street corners the same as our hot dogs. There are so many stuck up people who would never dream of eating American fast food but routinely sample the fast food of other cultures and feel so superior for doing so.

When I talk about gourmet cuisine, I'm not talking about traditional foreign peasant food. I'm talking about foie gras pates, lobster, escargot, truffles, caviar, filet mignon, and pinot noire. And for all the people saying that fast food is unhealthy, do you think these fine cuisine's aren't full of calories and fats?

Also, McDonald's* is a darn fine equity, which has made El Sancho beaucoup bucks over the years.

*Disclaimer: El Sancho is long on MCD.

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Originally Posted by YesNo

OK. I'm curious. What specific works are you referring to when you say "far better literature"?

Bloom is referring to The Wind in the Willows or Alice in Wonderland, but I wonder what you have in mind.

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That wasn't even the point of his post. You did notice the part where he showed how silly your analogy was, yes?

Also, what's "Confunded"? Is that an HP word, or a misspelling of "confounded"?

I made up the word. It means "Boy who died because eat a poisoned frog despite the advice of the authorities to not do so."

I really don't see fast food as crap. I see it as fast. You seem to look down on it because it's common and prefer any Italian or Chinese restaurant regardless of their quality for the sheer novelty.

No... I recognize that for the most part fast food tastes like crap. It's a fast and cheap alternative to food that is much better. McDonalds burgers don't taste anywhere near as good as burgers from any number of bars, most sit-down restaurants, or the backyard grill. Taco Bell's cuisine is no where near the same as what I can get in a real Mexican restaurant. Domino's or Marco's or Cici's pizza tastes like cardboard compared to what I can get at a better Italian restaurant or pizza-shop. The Chinese take out at one of those ubiquitous China King shops falls far short of what I can get in the local restaurants in Chinatown. hell... you probably going to tell me that Budweiser and Lite taste as good as Samuel Smith, Chimay, Duvel, or Aventinus or that suggesting that Budweiser is pi**-water is somehow un-American.

I would suggest that Alice in Wonderland most certainly is an example of "far better literature".

I think Alice in Wonderland is a lot of whimsical crap. When I read it as a kid I liked it at first, till about the mad hatter's tea party, and then gave up because it was just one damn bizzare thing after the other. The Harry potter books, for all their Confundo charms and invisibility cloaks and other flights of fancy, are still firmly rooted in reality.

Of course, this is only me. I'm sure there are lots of kids out there who like Alice (though I haven't met any), and it's been around for more than a hundred years. Well, I'm pretty sure the HP books will also be around for that long - just give it enough time. Owners of first editions - hold on to your copies!

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

I would suggest that Alice in Wonderland most certainly is an example of "far better literature".

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I've enjoyed Alice in Wonderland, stlukesguild, and I am re-reading it now because of this thread. It is different, but I don't think it is any better than Harry Potter. I know we will disagree on that and that is fine. Uniformity of tastes is very boring. I have no authority to force you to accept my position and I do not want any such authority. Luckily for me, I try my best not to accept anyone's authority to force my tastes either.

After reading Carroll, what else should the young person read? Or should they just keep re-reading it?

Alice is deeply rooted on reality. Dreams are real and mathematics too.

The burton movie is not so far away, even with the weird reading, it is undeniable that it is quite fresh for a book written 100 years ago. As Italo Calvino would say, a classic that still has things to say.

And maybe yes, maybe not in 100 years HP will still be there, but that is not the only card of Alice. It is undenyable original language-wise and has be direct influence for heavy weights like Joyce, Borges or Guimaraes Rosa.

Alice's books can be talked in the same breath as Moby Dick, Quixote, Bovary, etc. You do not need to like it - but really, that is why Bloom does not say much about, the credentials of those books are too impressive.

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Alice's books can be talked in the same breath as Moby Dick, Quixote, Bovary, etc.

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Oh please! :rolleyes5: I've read Moby Dick, Quixote and Bovary, all absolutely magnificent books, and Alice is simply not in the same league, either in language, complexity or scope or stature. It isn't even fair to compare them, or any other children's book with some literary giant.

To me it seems like you'll say anything, however ridiculous, just to try and prove the HP books are trash.

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Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandis

That wasn't even the point of his post. You did notice the part where he showed how silly your analogy was, yes?

Also, what's "Confunded"? Is that an HP word, or a misspelling of "confounded"?

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The word "silly" is silly. It doesn't describe what you did not like about the analogy which I would be interested to hear.

I understand that McDonald's and White Castle are too similar. I should have picked some more expensive, fancier place that serves other cultures' peasant foods at jacked up prices for Bloom to promote. I think I got the point, but I was using your restaurant choices, Mutatis-Mutandis, not mine. You said you did not like McDonald's but you did like White Castle. Pick another restaurant, as fancy as you want, that you do not like and replace that with McDonald's. When Bloom plays the authority card, the point of the analogy still works since by assumption you do not like that fancy restaurant.

Regarding the Confunded Charm referenced in my signature, I liked the way Rowling made Snape summarize very briefly what happens when people are most confused--they become most certain. I thought it was a good line from the book.

Actually, thanks to the internet, and who knows how advanced it will be in the future, I think Harry potter has a good chance of surviving 100 years from now.

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Originally Posted by mona amon

Oh please! :rolleyes5: I've read Moby Dick, Quixote and Bovary, all absolutely magnificent books, and Alice is simply not in the same league, either in language, complexity or scope or stature. It isn't even fair to compare them, or any other children's book with some literary giant.

To me it seems like you'll say anything, however ridiculous, just to try and prove the HP books are trash.

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I'll have to disagree with you here as well - the Alice books are excellent pieces of literature, and worthy of serious study. We've got two PhD students here in the department whose theses both engage Alice to a certain degree, and they've got some really interesting things to say about the books - there is a lot of serious study concerning Lewis Carroll.

For the record, we don't have anyone doing a PhD that touches on HP. And my university is the only one in the whole country that offers an entire module based on Rowling's work, so I imagine we would be a prime location for anyone wanting to study in that direction. I myself am probably the closest, given how my thesis to some extent engages with the literary history of magic, but I'm firmly rooted in the medieval.

Oh I'm sure there's some student somewhere, right now, doing a thesis on Poststructuralist Gender Treatments in Harry Potter or something. A few months back I borrowed from the library a book of literary criticism dealing with Harry Potter. I don't remember the title, or the name of the author, and I didn't read it because it was boring and pedantic, but she had a PhD after her name and was professor of some university in the UK, and evidently had a lot to say.

I'm not trying to be dismissive of your friends' theses, just pointing out that these things don't really prove the literary value of anything.

I actually never said Alice was without literary value. I said I didn't like it, and I also feel the HP books are better than Alice, on the whole.

And anyway, whatever the literary merits of Alice, there are degrees of literary merit, and it's just ridiculous to put it in the same league as works like Madame Bovary, Moby Dick and Don Quixote.

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Originally Posted by mona amon

Oh I'm sure there's some student somewhere, right now, doing a thesis on Poststructuralist Gender Treatments in Harry Potter or something. A few months back I borrowed from the library a book of literary criticism dealing with Harry Potter. I don't remember the title, or the name of the author, and I didn't read it because it was boring and pedantic, but she had a PhD after her name and was professor of some university in the UK, and evidently had a lot to say.

I'm not trying to be dismissive of your friends' theses, just pointing out that these things don't really prove the literary value of anything.

I actually never said Alice was without literary value. I said I didn't like it, and I also feel the HP books are better than Alice, on the whole.

And anyway, whatever the literary merits of Alice, there are degrees of literary merit, and it's just ridiculous to put it in the same league as works like Madame Bovary, Moby Dick and Don Quixote.

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Why is it ridiculous? Because you didn't like it?

Either way, Don Quixote is probably the West's best single novel, Madame Bovary is probably the best of the French language novels. Very few works indeed are in those leagues.

That being said, Alice is still a well received good book, with much to say and write about.

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Originally Posted by JBI

Why is it ridiculous? Because you didn't like it?

Either way, Don Quixote is probably the West's best single novel, Madame Bovary is probably the best of the French language novels. Very few works indeed are in those leagues.

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Then why are you asking me why it's ridiculous to put Alice in the same league with them? :confused:

And by the way, I wasn't the one who made that ridiculous comparison.

Nobody is assuming. Alice books are on the same league as those books (Madame Bovary is not as good as Quixote, yet, we can talk in the breath as Quixote). Just like Flaubert has influence on Joyce, so does Alice. Just like Quixote has on Borges, so does Alice. Lewis Carroll influence on language is considerable, not a small "children literature". I am not even using my words, I am using Virginia Woolf. It is not only literature, Jung mentions the book, Withehead, Bertrand Russell mention the books. The book is often mentioned by physiciists and mathematicians because what you call out of reality are Carroll's paradoxes descriptions. In music it goes as fas as The Beatles and Jefferson Airplane.

It is easily mentioned among the best books of all time, Alice as one of the most uniques characters of all time and has stabilished itself as a classic just like those books. There is nothing ridiculous on that: it is an extreme respect work and if someone says "Just a children book" it will receive a big laugh. (By the way, it is not the only work that has the label children literature and yet is extremelly respected. Stevenson and Andersen are like Lewis Carroll ranked and studied with the same critical eye of Flaubert, Melville, etc).

I am not worried to rank novels, etc. But Alice impact is way beyond children literature (which is also imense, even the children go from real world to magic world that is in Potter was popular thanks to Alice) to compare it negativellly with Harry Potter is like trying to equate Stephen King to Poe just because they are in the same genre.

And isnt deeply rooted in reality, really, great reading Mona.