Printable View
Well, my father left us and we automatically defaulted to my mother's Protestant side. The Catholic part is definitely gone along with my father and godparents, all who vanished.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwdean
I'm beginning to realize lately that I've never really chosen anything for myself. But I don't go to church anymore, mainly because churches give me anxiety.
It's funny that Scripture still has an emotional pull on me, so I'm unable to call myself an Atheist.
have you ever explored catholicism for yourself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vonny
i have recently begun to do so.
while i disagree with much of the doctrine, the aura/reverence and mysticism of the catholic church absolutely has it's pull on me...
It's funny you mention this because those qualities pull me, too. I absolutely hate the new-age crap that so many other churches have turned into. A young woman I know who goes to Catholic church said that if you look around at the congregation, just about every single head in there is gray. That appeals to me. I love the traditions. Another thing I love about Catholic church is Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve, and the old-fashioned Christmas carols! I have still gone to Midnight Mass several times over the years with friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwdean
And then several years ago I was able to visit Mount Angel Abbey in Oregon. It was really beautiful, and listening to the monks sing Vespers was really nice, better than taking a tranquilizer!
It's possible that I could get sucked back into Catholic church, but right now I don't have time!
The only other problem is that I don't like their bible. I like the King James version.
in my opinion, protestant churches have become dangerously casual. i don't believe that one should be judged by what they wear or believe or give during church, but it could be said that those who practice the catholic faith may take it more seriously than their protestant counterparts. this may be due, in part, to their belief that salvation is not given, it is earned by works. there also seems to be unity of belief among catholics. the catechism gives pretty much a guideline for living. though protestants would hold that the Bible itself is their guideline, the differing translations provide discord amongst those in the same church family. while there are THOUSANDS of protestant denominations, catholicism only exhibits two (if i understand correctly). there must be a reason for this unity...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vonny
"There must be a reason for this unity."
Sure, superstition.
In the case of Roman Catholicism, the reason is the authority of the Vatican, exercised through the infallibility of the Pope.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwdean
You seem to think that that's a Good Thing, and that the nonconformists' diverse interpretations of Christian precepts are a Bad Thing - which, of course, is a perfectly valid opinion. But there are those who would argue exactly the opposite.
However, stepping back a little and looking at Christianity overall, the differences between the (Roman) Catholic Church and other Christian demoninations are tiny, compared to the differences between all the monotheistic faiths.
And the differences between the monotheistic faiths are pretty small compared to the differences between all of them and the multitheistic faiths.
And the differences between all faiths are insignificant compared to the differences between faith and lack of it.
And even the lack of it has no real defining characteristic except that - so there's a lot of difference there too.
So I don't think that, in terms of the practice of faith, the little differences between Roman Catholicism and other Christian sects really matter. However, one of the appeals of Catholicism (Roman or otherwise) is certainly the showbiz element - the ritual, the incense, the formality of process and symbolism. I guess that's as good a reason as any to choose that form of Christianity.
My wife - who was brought up a Catholic - was told that eternal damnation awaits anyone who calls themselves a Christian but doesn't recognise the unquestioned authority of the Pope. Even now she isn't entirely sure that nonconformist marriage ceremonies really count, because there's not enough stained-glass and men-in-frocks about the place. My mother - who was brought up a strict non-conformist - was told that if she ever attended a Catholic Mass, she would go to hell, because it was the work of the devil. Even now, she's not completely at ease around crucifixes, which come under the broad heading of 'graven images'.
If you take away the smoke and mirrors from Christianity, you are just left with a lot of mumbo jumbo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G L Wilson
I can't see that that kind of blasé, adolescent throwaway really advances the discussion at all. I mean, what would have been lost had you decided, having typed it, not to hit 'Send'?
im not saying that one is wrong while the other is correct. catholicism has two denominations, protestant christianity exists in thousands. that is my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
on the other hand, MarkBast, i was brought up similarly to your mother. i have attended a protestant church since birth. my mother, who was catholic for many years, swears that catholicism is simply wrong. i do believe that calling any human (the pope) infallible is ridiculous. i promise you, the guy makes mistakes. but then again the catholics would say that those who take the Bible alone as infallible truth are sadly mistaken.
religion... its tricky.
Human beings suffer for no reason, no reason at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
so do animals and the environment. Are you thinking we're special or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by G L Wilson
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
I can't see that that kind of blasé, adolescent throwaway really advances the discussion at all. I mean, what would have been lost had you decided, having typed it, not to hit 'Send'?Quote:
Originally Posted by G L Wilson
It is certainly not blase whatever it might be.
It's very arrogant of people to insist that their speculations of a god's motivations are based on any type of logic whatsoever. If god/gods exist, we don't know him/her/them or their possible motivations and capabilities, and as of right now we have no way of gaining said knowledge. To pretend to know only assigns our own imagined motivations to the potential actions of deities, thus elevating ourselves to the supposed mental plane/s of deities. This line of speculation is purely egotistical, unless it's being used to illustrate how much sense "God" does not make, in which case: fantastic!
That seems to suggest that human beings are not capable of knowing the mind of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin
Definitely, Mark. To know the mind of a God, one would have to be a God. Now that's a nice fantasy. Maybe we're all gods and we're fleshing out this saga of what motivates the one mega god we've conjured. Or maybe we've all always been gods. Accidentally expanding the universe the way some people accidentally make babies. It's a fantastic mystery with endless possibilities. The possibilities don't begin and end at this one god of men. Doing a bunch of guesswork within the confines of this one story, this one idea, and passing judgments on other humans because we assume it's the will of THE god, well, pardon me for saying so, but that is ludicrous.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
Basically, if someone (or something) manages to acquire/develop power superior to our own, and then behaves in ways we find unjustifiable, we should just go ahead and worship them, because they must've created everything, even the world they were born into. Anyhow, I think that's the formula that the mystics take, before becoming Vichy-reality-based tools.
Precisely. So the thrust of my argument isn't about whether or not human beings can understand the workings of God's mind. Let's agree we can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin
The question is whether or not that's any way to run a universe - whether it's fair to set up a cosmos in that way. And that matters - to me at least -because if he's created us in such a way that we are incapable of understanding him, it'd be capricious to judge us within the structure of that set-up.
Hence this...
...which is the point I was hoping would be addressed by someone who does believe that that is a fair way to run a universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
Pretty cool, Mark. I somehow missed that comment before. Very smartly stated. Why do people worship this invisible, incoherent idea? If any of the gods envisioned by man are real, those gods either have severe mental problems, or zero ability to interact with our reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
The Buddha's experience of Gods was that there are a number of them who live greatly extended lives-eons long- of divine comfort, but who are themselves subject to birth ageing sickness and death. The delusion the foremost of them has - referred to as Brahma, but this is pre-christian, (which raises interesting possibilities), is that they created the universe.
The idea that there is a God realm would seem to account for the different views of Gods that cultures have, and for the different sets of them - Norse, Greek, Hindu, the God vengeful of the Hebrews etc.
The Buddha's claim also sugests that it is possible to know the minds of Gods and that they're not so Divine as they think but subject to Karma just the same as any being. From the Buddha's point of view then, as they too suffer, they need to be viewed with compassion.
Norse and Greek gods are getting a lot of sympathy, not. Now for the rest of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
This is very interesting. I so love stories of Buddha. Of course, they still do not offer hard evidence of a God realm, and the suggestion that the universe was created by beings at all is merely fanciful speculation. However, if we are speaking in hypotheticals, the points you raise imply to me that, as we may know the minds of gods, and as gods may be fallible, it stands to reason that everyone could aspire to be equal to (and even defeat) the existing gods. Another lovely fantasy. I could so take the Christian god in a fight. I'm pretty much a badass, is why. Seriously, I don't have any faith in guesswork, but fairy tales are sweet. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
If there are gods, it is right for us to tremble.
The Buddha's teachings suggest that anyone who follows the path could gain insight into the different realms. Lots of meditation, (of specific kinds) practice needed under the guidance of a Teacher though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin
Nonsense. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by G L Wilson
I put no trust in gods of any kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin
Trust has nothing to do with it. Why "tremble"? What is the worst thing a god could do to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by G L Wilson
Could revoke his internet access.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin
If the "god" were the Creator of all things and the source of spiritual life, and if He were the only source of real love, He could allow you to separate yourself from Him, as it were. Through this action existence would become like hell. But that is only one school of thought. Everyone has to choose for themselves what to believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin
You should be a god, Mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
A theory as sound as any. If this turns out to be the case, I still will not tremble before god. He never made himself clear. I'll just be thrilled to still exist, to not have gone out like a blown candle. If god wants me to fear him, I want to be separated from such a beast. I wouldn't care if I was cast into the most empty void. I would be content to have myself, and to go on. If he takes my "self" away, it will be no different a fate than I imagined.Quote:
Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC
These are romantic musings. Wildest dreams.
We die. Consciousness goes. I have faith in right now, because this is within my realm of understanding. :)
How can you be so sure of that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin
I've seen brain death. I've seen the slow and the rapid deterioration of the human brain. I have knowledge of the way information travels through the central nervous system, and the way memories are stored. As portions of the brain die, and as neural connections clog and stick shut permanently, a person's "self" fractures and fades away. There is nothing left of the awareness that was there. I have never seen a vehicle for this awareness to pass into another realm. I have only seen this reality, so I can never assert that there is another.
My family died a long time ago. Like squashed insects, they were destroyed. I haven't heard from them since. Go figure!
Can I say there is no afterlife? No. All I can say for certain is that corpses decay, and new stuff eventually grows out of them. It's not as depressing to me as it is to those clinging to delusion. That being said, faith in guesswork can make some people happy. Unicorns and dragons made me happy when I was 4 and imagined they were real.
Also, it doesn't matter what I feel sure of. Like I said, I'm contained in the present reality.
I am trapped in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Varenne Rodin
That awareness makes you special. This is the only kind of thinking that will lead to progress. Someday maybe death will be beaten. Maybe lifespans will be extended, or maybe we'll figure out how to upload individual minds into greater technology than human bodies. Maybe we'll improve space travel to a point where we find something we never imagined. These are fantasies, but much more viable to me than theistic musings. Someone has to pave the way. You're not alone, so don't despair. Your ideas, when shared, cause a chain reaction. That makes you important to me, to other people like us, and to future generations.Quote:
Originally Posted by G L Wilson
Besides, comedy is fun. There are beautiful things happening all the time. Chin up, sugarplum!
Be done with it already and stop torturing the rest of us please. When did Litnet become a group support system?
If I want to say something nice to someone, I will. I'm not burdened with the habits and norms of Litnet.Quote:
Originally Posted by jersea
When did LitNet become a wilderness?Quote:
Originally Posted by jersea
Don't worry sugar, I don't think anyone follows any norms on LitNet. Why let anything burden us?