what is Her Ladyship doing here on Litnet ? Send her back to Bebo..
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what is Her Ladyship doing here on Litnet ? Send her back to Bebo..
I hope some of you realize that it's ok to have an opinion. In fact, I'm sure all of your favorite authors had very strong opinions - strong opinons about ideas, other authors, and books.
Live a little.
General Mod note to all. Remember that others opinions may be different from your own. Please refrain from nit picking and personal insults and return to the topic at hand. If it continues, posts may be edited or the thread will be closed.
I can understand your comments about Faulkner and Conrad, but this comment about Animal Farm seems odd. Apparently you don't like swine. Is that hatred based on some childhood experience, religious preference, or what. Swine are not naturally dirty or smelly. They gain those conditions from the conditions in which they are usually kept. Using swine as allegorical characters amplified the allegory; although it also made it so transparent that it become pointless by the end of the book.Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalLove
No it's not. People have the right to criticise a book and when a book is bad then someone needs to point it out. It's like modern art today, rich people keep thinking "oh this piece of art is so amazing etc etc" when it is actually just as simple as an apple or a window lol. Sometimes a ciggar is just a ciggar and a bad book is just a bad book even if someone was open minded I think they would have to be as much when judging a book.Quote:
Originally Posted by wingwizard
I couldn't finish Don Quixote. This is the only novel that I haven't been able to push through to the end. Something about this poor demented character struck me as almost obscene to watch...kind of like getting laughs by going to a nursing home to watch people fall down. I've promised myself to give it another try, but I'm not sure that as I age, the story is going to become any more palatable.
Hi Black Flag, could you back up these statements with examples please? ...and just how many Lawrence works have you read in order to come to this conclusion? I find these statements totally misleading and simplistic; casting a negative oppinion to other posters about one of the world's most accomplished and remarkable authors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Flag
I'm not currently sure what the worst book I ever read was.
Back in high school, I was assigned to read Catcher in the Rye, but I was only able to read the first chapter; I simply didn't have interest. Lately I've been considering actually reading it.
It seems as if many on the forum must have some rather amazing reading habits considering the fact that an author such as Faulkner, Lawrence, Conrad, Orwell, Hawthorne, or Cervantes could be imagined as the "worst" thing they had ever read. Seriously... Don Quixote?!!!:eek2: I'd personally place it among the best novels I had ever read. I've re-read it several times and each time was still a pleasure and a learning experience. I do understand the sense of a reluctance at garnering laughs from such a poor and demented character... but I've always found that as the novel unfolds one begins to not merely feel sorry for the Don but actually to imagine him as a truly heroic figure... a figure nurtured on great books and heroic literature who continues to dream in a world that has forgotten how... a figure with a great deal more wisdom than many around him credit him for. There is a magnificent sense of irony to it all... the man who continues to dream in a world that has forgotten how does appear comic... even pathetic. There is also a great sincerity. The relationship between the Don and Sancho unfolds into one of the greatest friendships in literary history.
I had to read that book in high school and hated it, I'm thinking of trying it again. The other worst book would have to be Orlando I dispised word of that book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zelly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zelly
Could both of you elaborate, please? I absolutely loved the book. I might go as far to say Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter taught me to keep an open mind when forced to read something, or, rather, it provided an example of something interesting among what I thought to be a bunch of drivel. Speaking of Hawthorne, do you, Zelly and papaya, hate The Scarlet Letter itself or Hawthorne's writing in general (have you read anything else by him?)?Quote:
Originally Posted by papayahed
Dori, I too liked "The Scarlet Letter" emensely. I thought it was as very intricate and complex book and does indeed, prompt one to ponder many things. Let's face it, it is a 'dark' sort of novel, but I really thought it was so well-written and I like dark novels. I would classify it with "Wuthering Heights", which also, was very complex and thought-provoking and very dark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dori
Everyone is intitled to have thier own personal taste and I really do not see the reason for people to crizitze others simply for not liking something you yourself may like.
And just becasue a writer might be well renowed, or considered classical, does not mean that thier particular style of writing will be to everyones personal taste or liking, but I really do think that is a reason to try and insult ones intelligence.
In fact would it not be kind of boring, if we all liked the same thing?
By the way, this is just a genral message not directed at anyone person, made based on some of the comments I have observered, so I hope no one thinks I am pointing at them persoanlly. That is not my intent.
Just asking people try and keep an open mind to other people's opinions.
Oh stop that rhetoric, no one has been doing criticizing, people have been baffled but this is everyone's right. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that includes the right to find surprising that some books might be seen as worst. I feel that as soon as some people disagrees some people start whining, and this is quite annoying to have these moralists jumping all the time for no reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I agree, actually with both of your who posted before me. In point of fact, I keep asking what the point of this thread is exactly (???).
DM, this is the perfect statement here:
I always say - 'to each his own!'Quote:
In fact would it not be kind of boring, if we all liked the same thing?
It seems to me that if we are to engage is a dialog or a discussion about something that we feel passionate about... like?... oh, shall we say BOOKS!?... then there will arise instances from time to time when we may find ourself disagreeing with another's opinion. Now we can all just go on posting with no thought to what another has said, unless it be to give the obligatory "thumbs up": "Jolly good point!" :thumbs_up. Personally that is not what I find of value in any discussion. I greatly value the right to disagree with another's statement and to defend my stance. I also greatly value another's right to question my opinions and defend that. In fact... I find that I have far more use for someone like jon1jt who inanely disagrees with me with regard to the relative value of Kerouac:D, than I do for those who offer nothing but kudos. What's the point of a forum if all we get is kudos? Certainly such disagreements must remain civil... and I understand that in this forum the rules of civility are different than they might be at other forums. Still I find that the right to disagree is essential to any dialog if it is to go beyond mere cheer-leading: "I love Dan Brown" "Ooh! me too!":thumbs_up. To me, it would seem that the value of civil disagreement is that it forces me to think about my stance... to clarify what I believe or feel and why... it also exposes me to counter-arguments or other ways of thinking that I might not have come upon otherwise... and as such it may even force me to go as far as to re-think my own position in certain instances. As such, I must respectfully decline the invitation that we never think to disagree.
I think StLG makes a good point. Without different views and arguments, the Forum would have little purpose and use. We do not have to (dis)like the same books and authors and it is this fact that keeps the discussions alive and makes us (re)consider our understandings and impressions and this thread does a good job providing an opportunity for challenging our views.Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
Thanks to such posts expressing various and different views on books, I gave second/third chances to the books/authors I had not been keen on and was surprised to discover that my earlier impressions were not well-based (Faulkner being one of those authors ;)).
Please do not resort to inflammatory and/or personal comments and keep in mind that it is the opinions that we discuss; not the members themselves personally.
Further off-topic posts will be deleted.
As I mentioned I read the book in High School, perhaps it was the time, my age, the subject matter all I remember is my burning dislike of the book, which is why i mentioned I might try it again...eventually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dori
St. Luke's seems to have read my mind, not only regarding Don Quixote (seriously, how could anyone actually dislike DQ?) but regarding the caliber of the "worst" books on this thread. As I pondered, though, I realized that part of the problem with naming the worst book you've read is that it is generally also an incredibly forgettable book. I remember reading a book once in which a dead character inexplicably took part in the dialogue post mortem. I thought that perhaps the otherwise dreadfully inept writer might be starting something clever but, given that the temporarily resurrected speaker was never again alluded to or became any kind of plot point, I'm assuming that not only the author but the editor was sleeping on the job. I wish I could remember the author or title, because it really had to rank among the worst, not only for sloppy continuity but for almost undigestible style.Quote:
It seems as if many on the forum must have some rather amazing reading habits considering the fact that an author such as Faulkner, Lawrence, Conrad, Orwell, Hawthorne, or Cervantes could be imagined as the "worst" thing they had ever read. Seriously... Don Quixote?!!!
When it comes to the classics, this thread prompts a cleansing confession from me--one that might force me to hang my head in shame if it ever came out among my colleagues. This is that I fell asleep three times the first time I attempted to read Milton's Paradise Regained, and actually didn't finish it until a couple years later when I made a second successful attempt for scholarly purposes. Not that PR is really all that bad (actually I've grown to appreciate it considerably more of late), and certainly not the worst thing I've ever read, but I think it was problematic to try to read it just after reading Paradise Lost for the first time. Can I help it if I find Christ being good boring? :lol:
Petrarch's Love... I'll excuse you in this instance... but if you tell me that you had any similar "problems" with the Purgatorio or Paradiso after having read the Inferno... well then all bets are off!:lol:
Totally agree. I think when they mention works that are deemed masterpieces as the worst book, what they really mean is eitherQuote:
Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love
A. Why is this book so critically acclaimed? I've read better.
or
B. I didn't care for the author's message.
BTW, one of the worst books I've read is The Devil Wears Prada. A friend gave it to me to read on the plane. It was a hell of a flight. Didn't know she hated me that much.
This is dead on. I neither remember nor care to remember the worst books I never read. There are few memorable books that fall into the perscribed catergory for this topic and since the whole idea is that you never finished the book, your creditablity as a critic is less than desirable.Quote:
As I pondered, though, I realized that part of the problem with naming the worst book you've read is that it is generally also an incredibly forgettable book.
Having said all that I very much enjoyed reading these posts simply because I like to investigate opinions. A recurring theme appears to be that when forced to read a piece of literature (if you wish to classify all mentioned in this manner) "for school", many find the result disagreeable. Along this vein, I hated being forced to read The Great Gatsby and did not therefore appreciate the book. In like manner I was disgusted by The Lord of the Flies. Only much later have I reconciled myself to their worth. I place total blame on my high school English teacher. Will I be burned at the stake for wishing students had the ability and the inclination to choose to read good literature on their own, thereby avoiding this phenomenon?
Keeping with the spirit of the topic, I never finished The Birth of Venus and have no intention of doing so.
:lol: Nope, no falling asleep going through Purgatory, though I seem to recall being frustrated during my first read of the Paradiso, simply because I had to keep whipping out my language dictionary (I was in Italy at the time, so English translation wasn't an option, and my Italian wasn't as good as it is now).Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
While I recognize the validity of your observation--that forced reading breeds malcontent--I must take the opportunity to stand up for the poor maligned High School English Teacher. The problem is that the vast majority of students will not read good literature on their own. Rare is the student who resents being forced to read a book for school because it means they're forced to read Steinbeck when they would rather be reading Tolstoy. In most cases the resentment of being made to read the book stems from the resentment that they are being made to read anything at all, or that they are being made to read something with a challenging style or subject matter. Even if students are bored and resistant at the time, assigning classics in high school at least forces some people who might literally never pick up a book in their life on their own to be familiar with a few things. As someone who teaches Renaissance literature at the college level, I can attest to the importance of that familiarity. When I talk to people about what I do, they feel moderately comfortable and interested in talking about Shakespeare because they've all read Romeo and Juliet in high school. That familiarity is a place to start later in life when people might have matured a bit and become more interested in learning about literature and history, going to plays etc. I don't blame the teachers at all. I blame youth. Youth is bored with a lot, but if young people are made to read a few things in high school, they at least have a base of exposure to literature that they can go back to later when they may, perhaps, be more interested in the idea of reading and learning.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzaFan
By the way, I'm guessing from your user name that you share the opinion of those of us who are outraged at the suggestion that Don Quixote belongs on the "worst" list. :)
I find this intresting, for though I can understand people not liking to being forced to read certain books, I always enjoyed the assigned reading I had for school, I saw it as a way of exposing me to books I might not have thought of or picked up on my own and getting me to read things I preivously might have just discounted. Though I did not nessciarly enjoy all the books, most them I rather did like.
Though I personaly found The Great Gastby to be one of the most pointless things I have read, I still thought it was a good story and I still enjoyed it.
I would have to say one of the least enjoyable books for me, that I was required to read was Of Mice and Men.
Of course you are right, and not just about Don Quixote. I have great admiration for English teachers, actually all teachers with the exception of a few narrow minded college professors I had the misfortune to encounter. Namely those that discouraged my efforts to obtain a degree due to my gender. Please excuse my wandering. My point is, I understand and readily acknowledge the often misdirected attention of youth and appreciate the determination of educators to redirect them. Had it not been for my quilty English teacher (May God Bless Her) I would have missed many works that I did enjoy. It was unfair of me not to present the other side of the coin. However, I still hate required reading. :angel:Quote:
By the way, I'm guessing from your user name that you share the opinion of those of us who are outraged at the suggestion that Don Quixote belongs on the "worst" list.
Of the books I've been "required to read," I still hold a grudge against Lord of the Flies. Yes, it was in tenth grade (a long time ago now,) and yes, I know, it's an important book...but I hated it then and I hate it now. Its ideas seemed obvious, its symbols didn't interest me, and I resented having to spend an entire term writing papers about it...although, I'm not sure I ever did actually write any of those papers...It doesn't matter; I still hate Piggy, and the conch shell, and that horrible bleeding hog's head that was on the front cover.
That's a book I hate, but not the worst book I've ever read; that (dubious) honour goes to Erica Jong's Fear of Flying. It was alternately self-congratulatory and self-pitying; it convinced me that all feminists were hypocrites; it employs the word "which" in about a thousand places where "that" should be used...and some of the "earthy" descriptions of sexual things in the novel just grossed me out.
ETA: Like many others, I can understand not loving Don Quixote, but if it is the worst book a person has read, I can only say that I envy their extremely refined reading lists.
Lord of the Flies, an important book? I don't know... I've read it once because I had found it and didn't really know about it (therefore making me free of any preconceived ideas about it) and I thought it was good, but nothing so special. I mean I don't see any reason why this book should be considered important. The only reason I can see is that, like Orwell's 1984, for example, it's a great bargain literature/accessibility.
Etienne, I do not base my idea of "importance" on anything academic or intellectual: I figure once The Simpsons have done an entire episode satirizing something, it becomes important...hence, Lord of the Flies is "important."
Yes, yes, I was not criticizing it as your opinion, but the very fact that it was considered important. It was just an observation, if you want.
I'd like to add the translation of Aristotle's De Anima I have. It's simply horrible. Already that Aristotle was a very bad writer, what I have in my hands is partly undecipherable. To understand I had to get some other translations, honestly...
Take this example:
"We must note also that, if the soul moves itself, it must be the mover itself that is moved, so that it follows that if movement is in every case a displacement of that which is in movement, in that respect in which it is said to be moved, the movement of the soul must be a departure from its essential nature, at least if its self-movement is essential to it, not incidental."
This translation allowed me to understand what my translation said (it's in french however, so not much use posting it here) as the syntax is absolutely horrible... but note that in the context this sentence is even more mind-boggling then taken separately.
Glad to hear you don't actually have it out for high school teachers. ;) Just had to make sure the other side got out there before all the young students on these boards started running around making teachers the scapegoats for their dislike of Cervantes. I'm actually with Dark Muse. I've never resented any required reading (except a few choice works of literary theory required in my first year of grad. school, but that's because they really were pretentious and nonsensical). It does, however, seem to be a common opinion that required reading is more boring. Maybe people just don't like being told to do anything, even if it is reading a great book. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by PanzaFan
By the by, welcome to the forums, since I think you're fairly new around here. Look forward to having some good conversations with you. In fact you've already inspired me. I'm looking for the next read and I may go dig up Don Quixote. Haven't read it in ages, and it sounds like just the thing about now, especially since I've just finished an intensive reading list of the epics and romances that inspired the Don.
Also, may I add, a pox on misogynistic narrow minded college professors. Hope you showed them by getting your degree with high honors!
Thank you for the "welcome aboard". I am stupidly crazy about Don Quixote right now, so of course I would recommend it to you as I have to all my friends. The majority of them think I am a bore and prefer lighter reading, mostly the type of stuff you find in a magazine rack in a bathroom.Quote:
By the by, welcome to the forums, since I think you're fairly new around here. Look forward to having some good conversations with you. In fact you've already inspired me. I'm looking for the next read and I may go dig up Don Quixote. Haven't read it in ages, and it sounds like just the thing about now, especially since I've just finished an intensive reading list of the epics and romances that inspired the Don.
Also, may I add, a pox on misogynistic narrow minded college professors. Hope you showed them by getting your degree with high honors!
FYI
I did get the degree. I wish I could claim high honors but I am terrible with math and since I majored in electrical engineering I had alot of math. I did receive some honors despite that but mostly for English. Go figure :blush:
Tuesdays with Morrie. Ugh!
[QUOTE=Etienne;489874]
I'd like to add the translation of Aristotle's De Anima I have. It's simply horrible. Already that Aristotle was a very bad writer, what I have in my hands is partly undecipherable. To understand I had to get some other translations, honestly...
Take this example:
"We must note also that, if the soul moves itself, it must be the mover itself that is moved, so that it follows that if movement is in every case a displacement of that which is in movement, in that respect in which it is said to be moved, the movement of the soul must be a departure from its essential nature, at least if its self-movement is essential to it, not incidental." [QUOTE]
LOL... that's philosophy for you. Sadly when you get complex ideas you tend to get complex (cough) writing. Then again isn't there some debate as to whether what we have of Aristotle's work was actually written by him? I could've sworn that in one of my A Level textbooks they said that there was a chance that some of the texts were in fact taken from his students' lecture notes, which might explain the above!!!
I think the problem with 'required reading' is that often students are required to proceed at a set pace rather than going through the book at their own pace and thus enjoying it more. I also found it very boring to have to listen to my teacher at GCSE read "Of Mice and Men" all the way through with a slightly dubious American accent. That said, I'm sure I'd have enjoyed the book much more if I'd have simply read it for fun, but reading a book with the pressure of a looming exam on it does tend to take the enjoyment out of it!
I really like "Emma", though, which we're doing for AS Level, so I guess its a swings-and-roundabouts sort of situation. And it really does depend on the teacher, of course. But we mustn't forget that if it wasn't for the original "required reading" back in our primary school days none of us would be here discussing books!!!
Hmm... the worst book I've ever read? It was free with a magazine, absolute chick lit, had to throw it away. Can't remember the title - as someone has already said, the bad books are the ones we try to forget! I found "Bleak House" a bit of a struggle but appreciated it on certain levels and am glad I read it, though I think there are other 'classic' writers I would choose over Dickens.
I'd say I'm fairly lucky in that there are very few books I have disliked reading. :)
Indeed, the only writing of his own hand that survived (only partly) was the Protreptics. What we have now is not what he "published" but more lectures given to his classes, in fact. But nonetheless, the extract I have written was translated by myself from French, but I had to get three different translations (both French and English) to be able to get a good idea of what was meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoVis
The sad thing is that medieval philosophical literature was mostly through commentaries of Aristotle and they did keep this bastardized form which leads to what is now considered "typical" philosophical literature (although the mold has been broken since a while). But philosophy's destiny and perhaps even human destiny could have been totally different had Aristotle works survived in it's literary form...
Eragon. I might still be bearing a grudge against it though, having paid twelve pound upon its release and then never managing to read past the first few chapters. That's the only book that really comes to my mind as 'bad'.
Not surprising considering that the author was a teenager when he wrote it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cral
I know that this is a play, but Our Town by Thorton Wilder is possibly the worst thing I've ever read. The point of the plot is to be as mundane as possible, and, well, isn't the point of literature to escape from the mundane?
Otherwise, I would have to say the Lord of the Flies was dreadful.
I personally enjoyed Lord of the Flies, it was not the best think I have ever read, but I liked it well enough
The message was fine, and I believe that the ending was the best part because of what it revealed about civilization. And beside that, it provided for a release from the book...