The puzzle of the socalled "Bach variations".

That theme is not by Josef Haydn. It is (according to Luca Bianchini and Agostino Taboga) by Andrea Luchesi, the Kapellmeister at Bonn from 1771 to 1794. They have found very similar in the music archives of the Estense Library in Modena, Italy. (In the music that was once in the Bonn Music Archives before its arrival there).

Musicology (so-called) is not and cannot be an 'exact' science. It has become a counterfeit produced for public consumption by the music industry. Resisted by honest people. And anyone who deviates from the official line is excluded. Real musicology was too big a threat. Forkel and others. So 'they' produced a cardboard version in its place around 200 years ago, when the first 'histories of music' were published. Real musicology allows/encourages common sense. In fact, common sense is an essential part of it.

You should ask Luca Bianchini and Anna Trombetta to describe what happened when they were invited to lecture on the origins of the Vienna composers in Germany. They travelled all the way from Italy and spoke only for 15 minutes before they were asked to stop. After they had been invited to travel there to give students a lecture on the subject. Check it out ! There are numerous other examples.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Zs2...eature=related

Also see JH at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen (the original of previous composition by unknown composer said to have impressed JH so much that he copied it- or so claims the exact science of musicolgy).

---

What does cousin Trombetta say on the matter?

Replace "exact" with "well respected" if you must, in double quotes both!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

That theme is not by Josef Haydn. It is (according to Luca Bianchini and Agostino Taboga) by Andrea Luchesi, the Kapellmeister at Bonn from 1771 to 1794. They have found very similar in the music archives of the Estense Library in Modena, Italy. (In the music that was once in the Bonn Music Archives before its arrival there).

Musicology (so-called) is not and cannot be an 'exact' science. It has become a counterfeit of the music industry. And anyone who deviates from the official line is excluded.

---

You will have to ask Trombetta. Does that sound fair and reasonable to you ? Did the idea ever occur to you of asking people who have actually studied these things in detail ? I only suggest it as a possible improvement to your posts.

As for musicology being well respected, it is respected by me and others only if it allows criticism. Does that sound fair and reasonable to you ?

Shall I provide you with email addresses so you can write it ? Shall I write the letter for you and send it too ?

I say once again Yanni the history of western music most students are taught is sheer nonsense. How did that happen ? You might care to examine it yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

What does cousin Trombetta say on the matter?

Replace "exact" with "well respected" if you must, in double quotes both!

---

Alas, Robert, your partner-keeper of your "sheer nonsence" pile who also happens to be my distant cousin- never answered my last relative open letter* to you both, modest as it was!
Just like you did (not) in fact.

I suggest you renew your Joint Venture and give it another try, now JH has introduced himself to set you both free.

*See post 96 of http://www.online-literature.com/for...d.php?p=873911 and your following non answer-escape thru Joseph Haydn, ie Kassler's "unknown" JH.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRnA8VaFzD8 (by JH)

Yanni,

I have worked with some difficult lines of research over many years. But I have never encountered such confusion of thought, and such vagueness as I have repeatedly read from you in your posts. What you say obscures and diminishes what you have already said. Why don't you speak clearly about what you think and stop being obtuse ? Are you restricted because of your loyalties ? Your posts are really like spaghetti. Am I alone in thinking this ?

I will tell you clearly - much of what you write reads like nonsense. And the good things you write (which show how clearly fraternities were involved with manufacturing the careers of musicians) are often ruined by it. You do not write as if you know what you are actually saying.

We do not live in mediaeval times. We are free to give our views without any need for vagueness and innuendo.

That is my view and I hope you appreciate the truth of it. Because you are wasting your time and talents and the time of others if you do not structure your posts. They are very tiring and often lead nowhere.

You should study fugue. That will help. And I say this sincerely. But you first need a theme. And what you say must always be relative to what you have said and what you will say - all within the theme of what you are saying. That is something you can do. If you are prepared to try. It doesn't matter how complicated a thing is. It must always be simple. THAT is talent. And if you think you have succeeded in that, do better.

J.S. Bach
Trio Sonata No. 1 in E-flat Major
Third Movement
Allegro
BWV 525/3

http://www.youtube.com/user/smalin#p...26/1y7aw_ExNic


Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Alas, Robert, your partner-keeper of your "sheer nonsence" pile who also happens to be my distant cousin- never answered my last relative open letter* to you both, modest as it was!
Just like you did (not) in fact.

I suggest you renew your Joint Venture and give it another try, now JH has introduced himself to set you both free.

*See post 96 of http://www.online-literature.com/for...d.php?p=873911 and your following non answer-escape thru Joseph Haydn, ie Kassler's "unknown" JH.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRnA8VaFzD8 (by JH)

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

. Why don't you speak clearly about what you think and stop being obtuse ? Are you restricted because of your loyalties ? Your posts are really like spaghetti. Am I alone in thinking this ?

---

As you're alone in reading it - yeah, probably.

I think this qualifies for some sort of prize as the longest thread with the fewest participants. I mean, I look in just to pick up a flavour of the discourse, but I'm the only one who does, I think. Still - you both seem to be having fun, and I'm completely entranced, as one watching the mating rituals of the gooney bird - so at least three of us are happy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkBastable

As you're alone in reading it - yeah, probably.

...but I'm the only one who does, I think. Still - you both seem to be having fun, and I'm completely entranced, as one watching the mating rituals of the gooney bird -

---

You are not alone. Many will think I've lost my mind and for the most part I have, but I've taken a cotton to ole Yanni and Musicology (aka Count Robert), which actually started back in the manufactured Mozart days.

I enjoy the "rituals" as well, though I only observe from the shoreline, hidden among the reeds.

Gilliatt

Spaghetti? "Train of thought" is a more elegant term to use but does not really describe the process of memory-recall/info collection/thought-generation which is certainly not linear. Yes, spaghetti is a better term to use for this extensive as well as intensive, web like, selfcenterd and very complicated, thus impossible to put in words, process .

So nobody really writes down his spaghetti like "thoughts" and we all use "words" (selecting the proper words each and every time) to let conclusions be known when a specific thought process is over, if it ever is, and they have been drawn. If not, a mark at the end of the sentence is placed, indicating "question" and inviting others, when not rhetorical, to take part, hopefully positively, in good faith, in a dialogue when needed.

So kindly explain your conclusions, Robert and be precise if you please: Tell me the specific part of my writings of, say, my previous four or five posts, which was not clear enough for you to understand.

Allow me to suggest you beginn with what I consider, for reasons arleady outlined, to be an important and highly relevant, absolutely clear and outright, realisation/statement/product-of-my-concluded-thought process :

JH, "unknown" for 260 years now and no freaking C.R.A.P*musicologist has dared look in his direction!

...but then, on "second thoughts", you'll have to address post 96 of http://www.online-literature.com/for...d.php?p=873911 which you (and Mme Trombetta, also cordialy invited) never did really!

So allow me to expect, judging from your below quoted last relative evasive, irrelevant and nonsensical reaction, that you shall try to avoid anwering once more, derailing the dialogue and breaking its rules as always.

Is that reasonable and clear enough for you?

As for fugues and talents:

Your use of fugue (in the greek sense, ie escape, getaway, bypass the issue) has been noticed and often commented upon. Instead of your usual head over heels, up and down and around your pile, try Handel/Bach's ie Arc.Corelli's fugues.

I don't own any single attic talent, nor recognise, accept or wish to exhibit any other.

Much obliged in advance for your better focused reply!

PS The "train of thought" expression is really meant to describe the successfull arrival to their final destination of many "partial", interlinked and well focused, conclusions, correctly reaching inbetween stations each and every time. Much like -and even better than-the completion of a puzzle! A train has mass, develops momentum, qualities much needed to get thru the pile of musicological (and not only) rubbish of your decaying "spaghetti".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Yanni,

I have worked with some difficult lines of research over many years. But I have never encountered such confusion of thought, and such vagueness as I have repeatedly read from you in your posts. What you say obscures and diminishes what you have already said. Why don't you speak clearly about what you think and stop being obtuse ? Are you restricted because of your loyalties ? Your posts are really like spaghetti. Am I alone in thinking this ?

I will tell you clearly - much of what you write reads like nonsense. And the good things you write (which show how clearly fraternities were involved with manufacturing the careers of musicians) are often ruined by it. You do not write as if you know what you are actually saying.

We do not live in mediaeval times. We are free to give our views without any need for vagueness and innuendo.

That is my view and I hope you appreciate the truth of it. Because you are wasting your time and talents and the time of others if you do not structure your posts. They are very tiring and often lead nowhere.

You should study fugue. That will help. And I say this sincerely. But you first need a theme. And what you say must always be relative to what you have said and what you will say - all within the theme of what you are saying. That is something you can do. If you are prepared to try. It doesn't matter how complicated a thing is. It must always be simple. THAT is talent. And if you think you have succeeded in that, do better.

J.S. Bach
Trio Sonata No. 1 in E-flat Major
Third Movement
Allegro
BWV 525/3

http://www.youtube.com/user/smalin#p...26/1y7aw_ExNic


Regards

---

There is no doubt about it. I'm an analogue man in a digital world.

My compliments for your efforts, Robert. No hard feelings whatsoever btw: One's myths-to-protect are sometimes another's past, occasionaly including elephants-to-tame!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GF5AYYoOtqM

(Out of all "jump ship" songs I cared listen to, the funniest and least revolting)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

There is no doubt about it. I'm an analogue man in a digital world.

---

Thank you Yanni. You have given new meaning to the term 'eloquent silence'.

Here is something unusual. Discussion without context. With Yanni proving nobody understands what he is saying, or trying to say.

I believe you should take up law (specialising in legalise) and, if not, you should at least stand for high political office. Ezra Pound would have been jealous of your outrageous obscurantism !!


:):smile5:
Regards

Sylvius Leopold Weiss (1687-1750)
Harpsichord Transcriptions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4I2kZM_JWY

You are always wellcome to reasonably answer any of my posts (192 and previous).

Otherwise enjoy your swim!

Yanni, unlike others, I have been answering your posts for months. You are so wrapped up in your obscurantism you should read your own posts. Including 192.

I keep my feet on dry land. Enjoy your own swim and please, please, please, stop the obscurantism ! Thank You.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

You are always wellcome to reasonably answer any of my posts (192 and previous).

Otherwise enjoy your swim!

---

Joseph Haydn has been identified by me some months ago, Robert, and is not eversince my problem. Nevertheless, Mr Kassler's JH elegantly reconfirms my findings, also passing the ball to you and your british coleagues, eversince 1997 or so.

JH, your problem all along, now looks like the cherry to your pi(l)e. Perhaps you may select to reach him thru his undoubtably huge records at your foreign ministry's archive. Same for Mr Kassler and their archives btw.

Otherwise, I am happy you reached dry land and wish you luck with your Mozart. Advise me, when ready to serve, and I'll send you a package of Niessen mustard for dressing.

Unless you have something further to add, I declare this thread closed.

My regards to you and your italian associates.

Ta-ta!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQCZLYgm05g

Joseph Haydn has long been identified by you ? And what use is that if you do not tell us, plainly, in a single post, your considered view ?

As for the involvement of the British Empire, Rome and Venice in the careers of men such as Handel, Haydn, Mozart and even Beethoven, I have repeatedly refered to the role of ambassadors and members of the British Empire during the time I have been a member of this forum. In fact I have refered to this for years. As recently as a few weeks ago. Would you like some quotes from what I've written here ?

Nissen we have spoken of before.

Why not summarise your findings on Josef Haydn and on Nissen and post them here for the benefit of everyone ? I can do the same if you wish. So you are clearly on record and will get any credit that is due for your research.

That is what I mean by avoiding obscurantism.

I am specialising in Mozart but will not ignore the context within which all of the above composers lived. They are all highly relevant. As for the work of other researchers these have value too.

It would be unfortunate if you close shop on this thread just as we are asking for plain answers.

Regards

CPE Bach (1714-88)
Concerto Wq172/3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OdOa...eature=related

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Joseph Haydn has long been identified by me, Robert and is not eversince my problem. Nevertheless, Mr Kassler's JH elegantly reconfirms my findings, passing thus the ball to you and your british coleagues eversince what, 1997?

JH seems to have been your problem all along. He now looks like the cherry to your pi(l)e and perhaps you may select to reach him thru his undoubtably huge records at your foreign ministry's archive. Same for Mr Kassler and their archives btw.

Otherwise, I am happy you reached dry land and wish you luck with your Mozart. Advise me, when ready to serve, and I'll send you a package of Niessen mustard for dressing.

Unless you have something further to add, I declare this thread closed.

My regards to you and your italian associates.

Ta-ta!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQCZLYgm05g

---

I did just that, summarize, not only for Haydn and Nissen but many others as well.

My own genealogy purposes -and curiosity (a strong motor)- satisfied, I neither believe it's possible, nor have the wish or stamina, to change existing form and put everything in a nutshell.

No, but thanks for asking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

You really should summarise your findings on Haydn and on Nissen and post them here for the benefit of everyone. So you are clearly on record and will get any credit that is due for your research.

---

OK Yanni,

What we see in all these things is really a hybrid religion that is no religion. An agenda which has infliltrated, managed and controlled much of western art and culture virtually since the early 16th century (with the assistance of corrupt men who serve it at the price of their souls) but whose origins date back far earlier, to pre-Christian times. Fake Jews and (later) fake Christians. The managers of fake history in the corporatised music industry.

Regards

If you so say, Robert!

Yes, I say so, and so do a growing number of other, honest researchers. It's the usual Khazar/Vatican/occultist hybrid - and the documentary evidence to support it is overwhelming. It is the most prominent, most verifiable feature of music history. And in its place to hide us from this fact are standard fairy stories, presided over by the pseudo-musicological stooges of the music industry.

There ! That's easy to understand, isn't it ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

If you so say, Robert!

---

Don't want my Niessen mustard and prefer Khazar dressing for Your sausages? Fine with me but may I humbly suggest to His White English Holiness,He better go promote His Sacred Products elsewhere?
I am a vegetarian, as He may notice, and this site is for colour blind sinners exclusively.

Do Bless us on Your way out!

Amen!

September 24, 2010: Brother Robert on Rome’s War Against Protestant Culture
EJP hosts White English Brother-in-Christ Robert Newman as he reveals Rome’s war on White Protestant Culture in the area of classical music. Protestant Lutheran Bach was the target for the Order in attempting to excel his compositions. While George Whitfield was preaching the gospel in the American Colonies, Bach was moving all of Europe with his God-glorifying, musical masterpieces!

(In excelsis Bachum-Handelum, pax vobiscum, allelujah! Frater Kochum, cantor graecorum-negrorum.)

Yanni,

The 'war' of which you speak is one on humanity, as a whole. The kind that humanity now realise is ongoing. Part of which is directed to ruthlessly destroy Christian and even Jewish and Muslim culture. By any means. Including through the financial, banking, military, political and even the academic world. Coming from frauds and liars of the pseudo-Christian and pseudo-Jewish elites and their fraternal sub-contractors, over centuries. In union with each other as we see in the banking, political, academic and every other sectors. Not content with having scammed entire nations and their governments out of their national sovereignty they want full control of history and education. As they had for centuries. Through their tin-pot fraternities and fraudulent corporations. Members of which have infiltrated and counterfeited virtually every sector of the religious, academic, business and cultural worlds. Whose targets include the Catholic and protestant churches themselves plus Islam and even Jewish communities. Counterfeits are the order of the day in their thinking. But misinformation is a plain fact accepted today by virtually every honest person. The occultist scum bags of evil. Hence the need to counter their dogmatic obscurantism with plain, indisputable but little known facts of history. The kind you so obviously love to learn ! Even in matters of music history.

Any hiearchical structure is vulnerable to corruption by globalist liars. In fact, globalism is enforced through hiearchical structures and their products. They come to us in the name of 'democracy' and even of 'culture'. The history of music (so-called) is a prime example. Fraudsters, fraternity freaks, agents of misinformation and the usual vested, feudal, bloodline interests. Increasingly exposed in our own time. At last.

I must be doing something right since I have and have had for a long time many good Jewish, Catholic, Orthodox, Muslim and Protestant friends. Of various nationalities and ethnic backgrounds. Each to their own.

Don't you just love the rising of the sun and real accountability ?

But it was sure to happen. The gooks don't like being exposed.

Do yourself the great favour of serving mankind. Then we are on the same side.

Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Don't want my Niessen mustard and prefer Khazar dressing for Your sausages? Fine with me but may I humbly suggest to His White English Holiness,He better go promote His Sacred Products elsewhere?
I am a vegetarian, as He may notice, and this site is for colour blind sinners exclusively.

Do Bless us on Your way out!

Amen!

September 24, 2010: Brother Robert on Rome’s War Against Protestant Culture
EJP hosts White English Brother-in-Christ Robert Newman as he reveals Rome’s war on White Protestant Culture in the area of classical music. Protestant Lutheran Bach was the target for the Order in attempting to excel his compositions. While George Whitfield was preaching the gospel in the American Colonies, Bach was moving all of Europe with his God-glorifying, musical masterpieces!

(In excelsis Bachum-Handelum, allelujah! Frater Kochum grecorum-negrorum, cantor.)

---

I didn't "speak of war", YOU did and still do.

http://www.ejpress.org/about/

I am not buying!

But the 'war on error' justifies virtually all aspects of our lives these days. Don't you know that ?

Our corporate governments and the mass media tell us so.

Our enemies are all those who question their official output. (LOL).

What we really need, they say, are a totally dumbed down population. Just queue up for more austerity measures, more banker bailouts, more political correctness, more fake vitamins, more vaccinations, more planning for national emergencies, more false flag operations, more GM crops, more 'cultural control', more invasions and occupations and lots more corruption in our corporatised governments and court systems. Everyone is to blame except them.

In my small field (musical history) I've seen my fair share of nonsense. And I reject it. That's all. The myth makers have been at war with reality for a very long time.

You don't 'buy it' ? That's good. It's really not for sale. It's as free as rainwater. But there are plans to sell that soon too !!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

I didn't "speak of war", YOU did and still do.

http://www.ejpress.org/about/

I am not buying!

---

Discussions on curent political issues are against the rules of this forum.

I am not discussing them. I am only listing them. They do not require discussion. Are they not acts of war against mankind ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Discussions on curent political issues are against the rules of this forum.

---

Googling for "Musicology Handel Bach" this thread lists #1 in 55000.

"Now you know!" as Mell Gibson (conspiracy theorist-cabdriver) would say! Or was it Bruce Willis?

Every war is a conspiracy, every act of wholesale deception and, each day, thousands of crimes are prosecuted in courts worldwide which are proved beyond doubt to be acts of criminal conspiracy.

The official report of 9/11 is a document which refers (no less than 3 times in its published text) to a criminal ''conspiracy''.

So it's perfectly OK to believe in criminal conspiracies - as long as they are 'official' conspiracy theories.

Let's all believe exactly the same thing. And no more conspiracy theories except of course 'official', 'sanitised' versions. :hand:

We interrupt this conversation to have a short statement from our corporate sponsors (LOL) !!!

'Good evening ! '''Everything you've heard is true''' !! So says the trailer of the film, 'Amadeus'. And our cornflakes are much better than anyone else's'

and -

''Razor blades remain in short supply but the war with Eurasia is reaching a decisive phase. Pig iron production has also increased by 2% in the last month'.

(Approved for broadcast by the Ministry of Truth who, next Tuesday, will be staging a concert of piano concertos by the Salzburg genius W.A. Mozart for our cultural education. Guaranteed to be free from genetically modified contents, artificial colourings and additives, and...... ). :crash:

///

Some Caccini-Caussin-Cosyn music in honour and memory of sweet Queen Charlotte (and her top page Frederic Nicolay) who had the kindness to buy it* in an auction, 1779, and preserve it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69sFhS6DRiY

(The Cosyn Virginals Book; circa 1620. The British Library, R.M.23.l.4., ff. 102v-103r. Copyright © The British Library Board)

*See: http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelpres...icnicolay.html

This is fun music. Whether it belongs to a much larger piece with more variations I do not know. But it is very nice without once challenging us or taxing our ears.

Thanks for this Yanni

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Some Caccini-Caussin-Cosyn music in honour and memory of sweet Queen Charlotte (and her top page Frederic Nicolay) who had the kindness to buy it* in an auction, 1779, and preserve it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69sFhS6DRiY

(The Cosyn Virginals Book; circa 1620. The British Library, R.M.23.l.4., ff. 102v-103r. Copyright © The British Library Board)

*See: http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelpres...icnicolay.html

---

A musical offering for Yanni. Best wishes -
Robert Newman

Domenico Scarlatti (1685-1757)
Sonata K9
Mark Swartzentruber

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yavu...eature=related

and -

Antonio Vivaldi (1678-1741)
Concerto RV 522
Op. 3 No. 8 "L'estro Armonico"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E-RTI-H2oI

//

Alternatively: Anglosaxon Cloak and Dagger stories.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of particular music interest for this thread are Frederic Nicolay's duties as "music administrator-librarian" to the royal couple, his hosting of both Mozart and Haydn, as well as his undertaking to "prepare Handel's manuscripts for binding, probably in the 1780s".

Frederic Nicolay was furthermore blood related to a "Carl Ludwig von Nicolay", of the german branch of the family, who died 1820 in Vyborg, Carelia, today Finnland. CLvN has been already identified in previous threads as comte de Saint Germain's last alias. His, practically empty, biography includes no family details.

Fred.Nicolay's three sons however ...

Frederick's three sons were: George Louisa, named after the King and Queen of Denmark who were his sponsors, Frederick and William. Reverend George Louisa Nicolay became Rector of St Michael Paternoster Royal in the City of London and Chaplain to Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany[14] Frederick became Chief Clerk to the British Treasury[15]. Lieutenant-General Sir William Nicolay K.C.H., C.B. (B.1771) became a distinguished army officer in The Royal Artillery, Royal Staff Corps, Royal Engineers and the King's German Legion. He was present at a number of significant battles and was decorated for his exemplary command of 5 companies of the Royal Staff Corps at the Battle of Waterloo. Sir William went on to become Governor of St Kitts, Mauritius & Dominica and was made a Knight Commander of the Royal Guelphic Order (KCH). He died at Oriel Lodge, Cheltenham, England on the 3rd May 1842.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolay_(family)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_...ch_von_Nicolai

Yes, there is no doubt that Frederic Nicolay (1728-1809) had a remarkable career (being host to both Mozart and Haydn etc in London and involved with Handel manuscripts) and was an important contact for both men in England. His name appears (I believe) in a list made by Leopold Mozart in Salzburg before the Mozart's even arrived in London. There can be no doubt he was a man of much importance in the musical/social regime of his time.

Nicolay (at least officially) arrived from Saxe-Gotha (therefore with permission of Queen Charlotte) and by 1751 had entered the Royal Household as Assistant to the Dancing Master to the Prince of Wales (the future George III). He rose to a related position that included head page and also as librarian and was culturally very influential within the British royal court.

As I see it there are two largely unexplored areas in the music history of that time - the role of Venice and the role of the British Empire. Both were massive in the careers of virtually all the 'great' composers.

It is entirely possible Nicolay may have been an alias. But around this time (c.1751) that would not have been unusual. He lived in to the 19th century. I have some notes on him I will dig out. The fact that one of his sons went on to become a Knight Commander of the Royal Guelphic Order (KCH) strongly suggests his link with Germany.

The fact that

Thomas Arne (1710-1778)
Concerto No. 3
1st Mvt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jGP7WUbMr8

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Alternatively: Anglosaxon Cloak and Dagger stories.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of particular music interest for this thread are Frederic Nicolay's duties as "music administrator-librarian" to the royal couple, his hosting of both Mozart and Haydn, as well as his undertaking to "prepare Handel's manuscripts for binding, probably in the 1780s".

Frederic Nicolay was furthermore blood related to a "Carl Ludwig von Nicolay", of the german branch of the family, who died 1820 in Vyborg, Carelia, today Finnland. CLvN has been already identified in previous threads as comte de Saint Germain's last alias. His, practically empty, biography includes no family details.

Fred.Nicolay's three sons however ...

Frederick's three sons were: George Louisa, named after the King and Queen of Denmark who were his sponsors, Frederick and William. Reverend George Louisa Nicolay became Rector of St Michael Paternoster Royal in the City of London and Chaplain to Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany[14] Frederick became Chief Clerk to the British Treasury[15]. Lieutenant-General Sir William Nicolay K.C.H., C.B. (B.1771) became a distinguished army officer in The Royal Artillery, Royal Staff Corps, Royal Engineers and the King's German Legion. He was present at a number of significant battles and was decorated for his exemplary command of 5 companies of the Royal Staff Corps at the Battle of Waterloo. Sir William went on to become Governor of St Kitts, Mauritius & Dominica and was made a Knight Commander of the Royal Guelphic Order (KCH). He died at Oriel Lodge, Cheltenham, England on the 3rd May 1842.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolay_(family)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_...ch_von_Nicolai

---

Nicolai, Christoph Friedrich (1733-1811), code name: Lucian. Bookseller and publisher, Berlin; founder, along with Lessing and Mendelssohn, of the Bibliothek der schonen Wissenschaften (Library of Fine Philosophy) and the periodical, Briefe, die neueste Literatur betreffend; editor of the journal Allgemeine Deutsche Bibliothek. His circle: Lessing, Mendelssohn, Herder, Goethe, Schiller, Kant and Fichte; and, perhaps most notably for the present study, Adam Weishaupt himself

Nicolai was the focal point of the German/Prussian Aufklädrung (Enlightenment); and, along with his partners Lessing and Mendelssohn, he was largely responsible for it. Nicolai was undoubtedly Weishaupt's main source for procuring books and journals, and from that acquaintance was likely initiated into the Order himself. Subsequently, the Illuminati would publish many pamphlets, articles and revolutionary tracts through this most important channel.

To stress the importance of Nicolai to the dissemination of ideas during the German Enlightenment it is reported that his journal Allgemeine Deutsche Bibliothek, for instance, reviewed a staggering 80,000 books in forty years. It was "intended to review (and thereby to expose to as large a public as possible) the entire prose production of the time …" ( The Eighteenth Century German "Trivialroman" As Constructed By Literary History And Criticism)
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Illuminati.htm

Yanni's timeline extract:

17 july 1761, Sterlitz: "A" Colonel Graeme(Grimm*) writes to "Mr Mitchell ,upon Lord Harcourt's journey to demand the hand of the Princess of Mechlenburg-Sterlitz"
(Wikipedia: ....when his affianced bride Princess Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was to be married to the King, his Majesty sent Frederick De Nicolay to attend his future Queen.)

Giessmannsdorf, 23. Juli 1761: Letter An den Hauptmann und Flügeladjutanten Freiherrn von Cocceji •Schreiber:Friedrich (Preußen, König, II.) •Empfänger:Cocceji, Johann Friedrich

On 8 September 1761, the King married in the Chapel Royal, St James's Palace, Duchess Sophia Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, whom he met on their wedding day

September, 1761 One of the two little germans in Diderot’s circle in Paris was Ludwig Heinrich Nicolay**, 1737-1820. (Friedrich Dominicus Ring, éditeur de Diderot, p116.) see also L.H. Nicolay (1737-1820) and his contemporaries, by Edmund Heier

*FMGrimm is nowhere to be found 1761-1762, and his next record is in a letter by Frederick King of Prussia to his cousin Duchess of Saxen-Gotha: Potsdam, 22 juillet 1763, Madame ma cousine,J'ai de grandes obligations au sieur Grimm, ma chère duchesse, puisqu'il me procure une lettre de votre part, où vous m'assurez de votre précieux souvenir.Nous avons ici M. d'Alembert, qui vaut mieux encore en société qu'en ses livres

**notable members of the German branch of the House of Nicolay, including Baron Ludwig Heinrich von Nicolai - Private tutor of Emperor Paul I of Russia and his son Baron Paul Von Nicolay - Russia's State Council and the Tsarist Ambassador to London, Copenhagen and Stockholm. The family owned and developed the manor and park of Mon Repos (Vyborg) from 1788-1943.

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PS RICERCAR, Your Grace, ricercar,if You don't want to make a Fool or Liar of Yourself : http://www.online-literature.com/for...d.php?p=615557 post 32.

What a pity Yanni is back to his obscurantism again.

Can you summarise your last post for us Yanni ? It reads like the headlines of a pile of newspapers. What is the story ??

We don't want the dots but the spaces in between. Like this -

Antonio Vivaldi/Johann Sebastian Bach
Concerto
BWV 1065/3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfu4c...eature=related

Music had nowhere to go. Let's invent the music industry. LOL !!

Your, breathtaking in their wisdom, "hang it all on Rome" and "Mozart was manufactured" announcements, are monumental evidence of Your unique powers of summarising, Your Grace, as such, please allow me to keep the hope alive that it is Your Goodness who will put it in a nutshell for Your humble servant and Your rezpected congregation.

Preferably after finding Your notes on the Nicolais to compare to mine, that is.

Are we all supposed to walk the road to Heavenly Zion without Your enlightened guidance, cracking each his own nuts?


Allelujah!

Yanni,

It is not good to 'quote' others when they have not said the words you are 'quoting'. It doesn't help your reputation.

I have not said 'hang it all on Rome'. In fact, I have said the opposite. Let me repeat myself (once again) so you cannot possibly miss it.

The history of music with which most of us are familiar is an elaborate fiction. A version of events we subscribe to with minimal, if any, cross-examination. An elaborate fiction but a fiction all the same. It is, for a start, blatantly hiearchical. It has been patronised by elites, defined by them, and its products are taught as being the academic and cultural measure for everyone else to believe. The fashions of elites, the music of elites and the alleged generosity of these elites and of their 'genius' employees. So, eventually, even composers associated with hieararchical elites are seen as elites themselves. As 'great' composers. See the trend ? We arrive at a sanitised history of music which has elite ('great') composers who (academically and culturally) live (they say) on Mount Olympus. The names of a few composers literally dominate music and musical history and always have. Yes ? Thus, for example, far less than 1% of composers who lived and composed in Mozart's time are known to us, recorded, performed and taught. What sort of 'history' is that ? And, as for the rest, we delegate that to 'experts'. Imagine a mathematics where 99% of all achievements are simply ignored ? Or an astronomy, or an art history ? It's laughable. And publishers, teachers and editors expect you to consume an official version of musical 'history'. Even if their version is shown to be filled with exaggerations and gross falsehoods. Wherever you see hieararchies you will certainly find the same kind of corruption, vested interests, fictions, hidden truths, exaggerations and falsehoods. Does this make sense to you ? I mean, is it any different from what we find in any other sphere of western civilization ?

Mozart was of course manufactured in the same way Handel, Joseph Haydn, Gluck, Mozart, and even Beethoven were manufactured. But to prove it, to show it correct, we might focus on just one of these individuals. Allowing facts, actual evidence IN CONTEXT to speak for itself. Your Cocchis were certainly managers of this myth. Why not tell us what you know of that fact ? It was part of the agenda of these same ruling hierarchical elites. And it took lots of hierarchical people to achieve it.

Certain things are true. But they tend to be suppressed, edited out, ignored. Somebody actually wrote this music. But 'they' don't want you to know about their music and their cultural factory. They want you only to believe in individual 'geniuses' as 'great composers'. Their own. The exceptions to this rule are (and always were) the real history of music.

The music of the time we are discussing (mostly the 18th century) was written at a time when there was an EMPIRE. That meant those who wrote music were SERVANTS - members of its civil service. Or were ecclesiastical employees. There were virtually no individual composers. These came later.

Imagine a book on Mozart, or Gluck, or Haydn which ignores that fact ? Ignores the entire reality of those times ? Imagine a history of music which ignores the sheer dominanance of the aristocracy, their beliefs, the role of the organised churches, the fraternities, the patrons of music and their own role in music and musical performance ? Which gives us in its place a fairy story ? Welcome to the world of Mozart ! It would be as ridiculous as to write a book about World War One or World War 2 without refering to the armies who were fighting there, or the regiments or battles they fought, or the leaders of those armies. Music and its official history is like that. It focuses on the INDIVIDUAL and largely ignores the reality of how they individually lived, who really sponsored them, who promoted them, made them, advertised them, what they (these composers) actually believed, the details of their influences, the fraternal and other networks to which they belonged and on which they relied.

Individualism is a great thing Yanni. But during the last decades of the Holy Roman EMPIRE that corrupt system (which had literally dominated Europe for centuries) was itself massively changing to become a secular EMPIRE. The name of that time is called (romantically) the 'Enlightenment', but it was designed also. It had the same corrupt, lying, vested interests as it directors - as before. The Cocchi clan (whom you are interested in) were certainly involved in 'managing' this movement (musically) as were many others. So were the occultists of Venice. So were the occultists of the British Empire. And so were the occultists of the Holy Roman Empire. So were many Freemasons and all the usual vested interests. So were the fake Jews and the fake Christians. Who would eventually write the 'history of music' as we know it, complete with its iconic 'great' composers. Part of the cultural side of globalism. As for the actual facts, well, these could be and were twisted, perverted, invented, attributed, by a new emerging music industry.

We really have to escape from this idea of 'great' composers. Of 'genius' composers. (Terms we never seem able to define). The fact is what was not part of the mainstream culture of the elites was ignored. And THAT is the real history of music.

You have refered to Gluck and other composers. These are artificially made careers whose origins were (of course) with the same hiearachical elites. It all goes back to academic and cultural CONTROL. Control of what is taught, believed, absorbed, consumed, and what is almost never cross-examined.

As for your 'irreverence' it's no more relevant than my reverence. Is it ? What we are interested in is to examine these issues fairly in the light of the actual, available evidence. So we can make up our minds having heard both sides of the story. Can't get fairer than that, can we ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY3Tc...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WKql...eature=related

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Your, breathtaking in their wisdom, "hang it all on Rome" and "Mozart was manufactured" announcements, are monumental evidence of Your unique powers of summarising, Your Grace, as such, please allow me to keep the hope alive that it is Your Goodness who will put it in a nutshell for Your humble servant and Your rezpected congregation.

Preferably after finding Your notes on the Nicolais to compare to mine, that is.

Are we all supposed to walk the road to Heavenly Zion without Your enlightened guidance, cracking each his own nuts?


Allelujah!

---

Yes, ofcourse, Your Grace, that's an exquisitely ornamented nut case.

Care to open it and tell us when Frederick De Nicolay was appointed Queen Charlotte's backstairs page?

Why should I be interested to know when Frederic de Nicolay was appointed the backstairs page of Queen Charlotte ? Will the answer relate to what I have just written, or is this another example of Yannian obscurantism ? :rolleyes5:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

Yes, ofcourse, Your Grace, that's an exquisitely ornamented nut case.

Care to open it and tell us when Frederick De Nicolay was appointed Queen Charlotte's backstairs page?

---

Royal Music Library archivist records that -

‘’From a childhood in Saxe-Gotha, Nicolay had emigrated to England and by 1751 had entered the Royal Household as Assistant to the Dancing Master to the Prince of Wales (the future George III).

Ten years later (1761) he became Page of the Backstairs to Queen Charlotte, and in due course was elevated to the position of considerable responsibility of Principal Page. He associated with the members of the Queen's private band, and met both Mozart and Haydn. It is clear that Nicolay's duties extended to upkeep of the Queen's Music Library. The ascription 'This Volume belongs to the Queen' is written in his hand in more than fifty of the books in the Royal Music Library, and throughout the Handel autographs there are interleaved sheets on which Nicolay has meticulously noted omissions, mixed-up leaves and other points’’

A will still exists for Frederick Nicolay (1728-1809) 'of Saint James's Palace , Middlesex Dated 27 May 1809' and strangely there is another (again for a man named Frederick Nicolay), ‘of His Majesty's Treasury of Whitehall‘ of Middlesex dated 7th March 1818.

It seems clear young Nicolay came to England with his father and other relatives from Germany. (The surname was not uncommon in England at this time).

Most of his work with Handel manuscripts seems to date from after 1785.

When the family arrived and under what circumstances is not known. It must have occurred before 1750 and there were various families of that name in London by that date.

Regards


///

And here (it seems) is Nicolay's background -

Gaspard De Nicolay was a member of the Court of Frederick III, Duke of Saxe-Gotha-Altenburg. He, his wife Joanna Sapphira and their two sons arrived in England from the Duchy of Saxe-Gotha (now Thuringia, Germany) in 1736. Gaspard was Attendant and Page to Princess Augusta of Saxe-Gotha and the Nicolay family accompanied her to London, where she was to marry Frederick, Prince of Wales. Gaspard became Page of the Presence to Princess Augusta and Prince Frederick from 1736 until 1751 and then Page of the Backstairs from 1751 until 1772. Gaspard and Sapphira's two sons were Frederick De Nicolay (elder) and Christian Frederick De Nicolay (younger).

Frederick was introduced to King George III, with whom he became a very great favourite; so much so that when his affianced bride Princess Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was to be married to the King, his Majesty sent Frederick De Nicolay to attend his future Queen. He remained ever after the confidential friend of both their Majesties, as well as of their family, the Princes and Princesses and lived in St. James's Palace. The affection with which the King and Queen held for Frederick was demonstrated in his appointments as a violinist in the Queen's Chamber Band, keeper of the Queens Music Library and the Queen's Principle Page. Frederick married Albinia Lattman and had 13 children; only three of whom lived to maturity. He died at St. James's Palace on the 16th May 1809.

Frederick's three sons were: George Louisa, named after the King and Queen of Denmark who were his sponsors, Frederick and William. Reverend George Louisa Nicolay became Rector of St Michael Paternoster Royal in the City of London and Chaplain to Prince Frederick, Duke of York and Albany. Frederick became Chief Clerk to the British Treasury . Lieutenant-General Sir William Nicolay K.C.H., C.B. (B.1771) became a distinguished army officer in The Royal Artillery, Royal Staff Corps, Royal Engineers and the King's German Legion. He was present at a number of significant battles and was decorated for his exemplary command of 5 companies of the Royal Staff Corps at the Battle of Waterloo. Sir William went on to become Governor of St Kitts, Mauritius & Dominica and was made a Knight Commander of the Royal Guelphic Order (KCH). He died at Oriel Lodge, Cheltenham, England on the 3rd May 1842.

The younger son of Gaspard De Nicolay, Christian Frederick, was brought up in the medical profession. He was private Physician to the Princess Dowager of Wales Princess Augusta of Saxe-Gotha, mother of King George III on whom (with Sir Clifton Wintringham and Dr Pringle) he was in constant attendance for two years. They alone were in the room with H.R.H. at her decease. He also attended her son Prince Frederick of Great Britain. Christian married Miss Turner and had three sons and two daughters, of whom only two survived: Augusta Georgiana Louisa Nicolay; God Daughter to King George IV and also sponsored by the then Queen Consort of Prussia Louise of Mecklenburg-Strelitz and Thomas Frederick Nicolay who became a Lieutenant-Colonel, Staff Surgeon to His Majesty's Forces and Deputy Inspector of Hospitals.

Only Thomas Frederick fathered children: Christian William, Frederick Lewis and Thomas Frederick, all of whom were in the service of the East India Company. Lt-Colonel Sir Frederick Lewis was killed at Ootacamund, India in 1855 whilst commanding the Neilgherries of the 29th Mechanised Native Infantry and Captain Thomas Frederick of the 1st Madras European Fusiliers was killed in January 1853 at the storming of the Pegu stockade during the Second Anglo-Burmese War .Lieutenant Christian William was a member of the 28th Madras Native Infantry (refer to: Madras Army) before being pensioned through Lord Clive's Fund. He died in Brighton in 1848.


///

Yes of course, Your Grace, that's what the Royal Music records and the Nicolays themselves claim but as the Royal wedding took place September 1761 and there has been a mixup between "a" colonel Graeme and a Frederic de Nicolay, both entrusted to escort the bride to the groom earlier on in the year, I was hoping that a Deus ex machina would appear to advise You of the exact date of backstairs appointment of master Frederick, saving You from another of those misfortunes that seem to haunt You lately.

Must be those evil obscurantist Khazar powers disguised as Popes of Rome and Cardinals of Venice, all hiding in the detail.

Good night!

A very important period really, 1761-1762,for our kleine nacht musik:

A JCBach arrives in London, you see, to replace Gioachino Cocchi who somehow vanishes everafter in obscurity, never-ever to assume authorship of or conduct another opera*.
This JCBach-highly appraised by the Royal Couple and their Music Librarian Frederick de Nicolay, Handel's editor in London who is blood related to Berlin/Leipzig etc Frederick Nicolai publisher**, the latter a close friend of the "Russian" Monrepos Nicolay-seems to be totally ignorant throughout his life*** of his father's JSBach own music style or his existence even and is futhermore a Roman Catholic.

No, you'll have to do better than that, brother Robert, cantor of the all white fraternity, since you are the one who wave the JSBach banner allover: Read Kassler's book on JSBach's introduction to the british public, find the requested date, put it in your timeline- if you have any-and come again!

*not quite like Gluck's "never again in London after 1746" however: Gluck reformed himself musically and survived thereafter in central Europe.

**who, as Berlin's biggest publisher as from 1755 was following Cocceji's instructions/laws on cencorship to the letter and was certainly aware of Handel/JSBach's Leipzig existence or relative "London" abscence.

***Equally so ignorant of any JSBach is the Berlin publisher Nicolai.

Yanni,

You asked about Nicolay so I have now provided 3 posts on Nicolay including detailed information on his family, his arrival in England from Germany, and the date when he was appointed to the post (including others). I might further add that Queen Charlotte married George (3rd) on 8th September 1761. How is that for obscurantism Yanni ?

Antonio Vivaldi
RV 569
Allegro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Pyd...eature=related

You are trying to find a needle in a haystack but it seems you don't know what it looks like.

JC Bach (that glorious convert to the church of Rome and therefore the receiver of a bag containing 30 pieces of silver from the British elites) was only one of a vast production line established from around the time of G.F. Handel, joined later by the careers of men such as Andrea Luchesi, this managed during Mozart's own time by musical charlatans as Abbe G Vogler, overseen by numerous performing seals such as the Cocchis etc. (dating back to the Council of Trent), even managed by Padre Martini of Bologna and by so many others. Mozart's career was stage managed even before the time of his birth. (It had already become standard procedure, you understand ?). You might also examine the careers of numerous others such as one Bohuslav Cernohorsy (friend and musical mentor of a certain 'great' operatic composer, Herr Gluck - that genius so conveniently born on the estate of Prince Lobkowitz in Bohemia), the wayward career of a certain Giuseppe Tartini (supplier of a violin treatise manipulated and published in the name of a certain 4th violinist and friend of Venice friendly and of papally approved Fugger bankers and merchants in Augsburg, (formerly collectors of indulgences during Martin Luther's time), appearing in print by one Leopold Mozart, in 1756 and published courtesy of the Duc D'Orleans in Paris), also the careers of Baldasarre Galuppi, Giordano Riccati, Hasse (that German operatic giant who lived for years in Venice and correspondent of that strange man, Abbe G. Ortes) and so many others of the Venetian/Jesuit connection which was basically transplanted to London and Paris. London became the 'New Venice'. This achieved with the assistance of numerous cardinals and potentates of Rome, the usual Venetian occultists (with Jesuit intermediaries) and the creative manufacturing of musical history as we know it. (No expense has been spared in the writing of musical 'history' !). With the usual hypocrisy supplied by Romanist elites of the British Empire. As for Khazar input, and the Akkadian Society (oops, Arcadian Society) we must overlook such things AND any Romanist manipulation of our subject. Since both were in union with each other at this time. The subject must be airbrushed out of official versions. Let us focus on the 'genius' of one iconic W.A. Mozart and ignore, completely, contexts or anything of his own century or musical time. 3,000 composers of the 18th century posthumously agree that Mozart was a 'great' composer and a 'genius' - terms we never define. Let us studiously avoid all contexts because these too are irrelevant. Since we have learned to be content to worship our icons on the manufactured musical Easter Island. Overseen by the usual soft spoken priests of pseudo-musicology.

JS Bach
Concerto
BWV 1052

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz4gY...eature=related

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by yanni

A very important period really, 1761-1762,for our kleine nacht musik:

A JCBach arrives in London, you see, to replace Gioachino Cocchi who somehow vanishes everafter in obscurity, never-ever to assume authorship of or conduct another opera*.
This JCBach-highly appraised by the Royal Couple and their Music Librarian Frederick de Nicolay**, Handel's editor in London who is blood related to Berlin/Leipzig etc Frederick Nicolai publisher**, the latter a close friend of the "Russian" Monrepos Nicolay-seems to be totally ignorant throughout his life*** of his father's JSBach own music style or his existence even and is futhermore a Roman Catholic.

No, you'll have to do better than that, brother Robert, cantor of the all white fraternity, since you are the one who wave the JSBach banner allover: Read Kassler's book on JSBach's introduction to the british public, find the requested date, put it in your timeline- if you have any-and come again!

*not quite like Gluck's "never again in London after 1746" however: Gluck reformed himself musically and survived thereafter in central Europe.

**who, as Berlin's biggest publisher as from 1755 was following Cocceji's instructions/laws on cencorship to the letter and was certainly aware of Handel/JSBach's Leipzig existence or relative "London" abscence.

***Equally so ignorant of any JSBach is his Berlin publisher cousin.

---

You mean you really don't have a timeline and/or Mr Kassler's book on JSBach and don't care to explain the Nicolay-Graeme, Windsor-music-archive royal blunder?

Holy White Moses, what an insult to musicology you are, Sir!

PS Wonderfull palaces the Nicolays owned in France. What a great and very old french family(13th century and earlier) they were! Enobled May 19, 1815, by King Louis XVIII, they aquired both their palaces Chateau de Lude and Château de Courances only around 1760-1770's and kept them both long after their enoblement. Their german cousins (Baron Ludwig Heinrich von Nicolai, Private tutor of Emperor Paul I of Russia, and his son Baron Paul Von Nicolay - Russia's State Council and the Tsarist Ambassador to London, Copenhagen and Stockholm) did not do so well in real estate, apparently. They only managed to aquire their Mon Repos (Vyborg) dacha round about 1788 to keep it until 1943. If not mistaken, I remember reading somewhere they were contemplating to also aquire a small property in Yalta at the time but changed their mind for some reason or other.