Thanks for the clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
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Thanks for the clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Heaven is real - Hell is not real. Many people in this world think this is the only world, but there are many worlds. There are infinite worlds, infinite dimensions, as life is infinite, as there is infinite existence. There is only one reality, which is infinite. This world is most-finite - the only finite. This universe seems infinite but our universe is just the most-finite point of the infinite. The one and only reality is infinite peace, bliss, knowledge, and existence - this world, this reality is just an illusion. The only hells that exist are illusion, and temporary - they are not reality. Certainly not a permanent, eternal physical place. That's a false idea, nothing like that exists.
The OP contains the article from the Independant. The contention is that the usual formulation of Heaven hell does not tally with biblical texts.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
One of the points made is that hellish conditions exist on earth - fire, flood, earthquakes, war, oppression. If you beleive in a hereafter, or reincarnation, then the possibility exists of hell after this life.
As to your post:
this reality is just an illusion
Illusion or not - pain and suffering can still be experienced. Presumably then, the same goes for heaven and hell?
"I, also, see it difficult how any reasonable person could disagree with the conclusions reached.
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God” (Psalm 14:1)."
My grandpa told me something like this when I was 8, except it went like this
The fool says in his heart, “There is no Santa Claus”
Boy was I in for a surprise...
I also love the fact that no one responded to the athiest's Scotsman's fallacy link. Funny how logic and reason scares people away.
But in all seriousness, let us follow the bibbles logic.
Live as an atheist and there is no god, you die and become nothing
Live as a christian and there is no god, you die and become nothing
Live as a christian and there is a god, you die and go to heaven
Live as an atheist and there is a god, you die and go to hell for eternal suffering
So logically just before you die, believe in god, so your good. As was pointed out on this thread earlier it doesn't matter how you live as long as you believe before you die, so making peace with god just before death, just incase seems the best option to me. And God, according to the Bible, finds it fine to, rape, kill, whatever, just believe in him.
Hellish states certainly exist for some people on earth. It's more a question of do they exist in a hearafter? If you believe in some kind of life after death - then the possibility of there being hellish conditions exists. If you don't, then there is just the hell on earth idea.
Heaven is a bit more problematic. Does anyone live a heavenly life? Some possibly - but this woud be very much down to the definition of the one expereincing. So if heavenly states exist on earth, then if you beieve in some kind of life after death, the possibility of heaven also presents itself.
Both Heaven and Hell exist as earthly states of mind in which we all have experienced at some point. IMO it is actually rather selfish to use your own moral doings throughout life for the benefits of a glorified afterlife. The act of good will for the sake of humanity is one of man's greatest nobilities, but only if it can be separated by the natural impulse of greed and self-pride. Life is its own big endowment, and death is only necessary. I would rather not attend either such place anyway, the overbearing dominance of total perfection or total brutality would be too overwhelming. Reincarnation sounds like a much more gratifying alternative to be; however, truth of it shall never be reached so long as you are earthly conscious.
Well said and great avatar & address!Quote:
Originally Posted by Serena03
I don't disagree with anything you've said. I will only suggest to you something and I'll ask you to keep it in mind for life. It's only this. I've experienced a reality beyond this one - which is equally described by many, and adequately described by Black Elk, the medicine man, as the spirit world, where everything is spirit; that world is more real than this one. I know this is little evidence, but I've got a bit more to say, but I'm almost done. The only words I can use to describe it are infinite peace, bliss, and existence. I never believed in the soul or spirit or God as a kid, in fact the opposite - I believed for sure they did not exist, as surely as the Atheist here. But at some point I began a path which one day led me to experience the divine. As I said I cannot give you any more description than the words infinite peace, bliss and existence. Many people who are absolutely convicted atheists will argue forever and say that what I experienced was not true. And they may argue while I step out and do something more healthy. But in reply to what you said about the overbearing dominance of total perfection, I can tell you this is not what I felt when I experienced divine consciousness. It was like waking up, and suddenly realizing that I'd come from an infinite peace, will return to one, and was never separate from the source, the ground of reality. I know this has gotten a bit more verbose - all I want to do is let you know what I know to be there, within, without. Logic does not dictate that we are not connected to all life, that we are not part of the source of reality, and that there is not an infinite existence to which we are connected. It's only our language that tells us this - language which is both helpful and limiting in both surviving and understanding (reality and ourselves).Quote:
Originally Posted by Serena03
Is it good to be so sure, or is an open mind better? When you say you'd rather not attend such a place - I don't think there's a choice. It depends who's right.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Serena03
I'm fortunate that the Buddhist view doesn't have the qualifying for heaven/banished to hell for etenity conundrum.
According to the teachings, Karma is a natural law which determines where you will be reborn etc according to the positive or negative actions performed in life. Buddhism does have a notion of heaven and hell, and whether they are psychological states or actual realms is a moot point in the West. Its not moot according to the teachings though. THey're not an eternal state.
So when you say reincarnation may be more gratifying, it may not be when you consider the possibility of being reborn as an animal, a ghost, or in hell. It's not an easy - everything will be lovely - concept in Buddhism, but needs work on oneself to progress into positive rebirths - ideally as a human. As a human a being can commit terrible atrocities and acts of great bravery/ compassion. There's no predestination, and so it's up to you. There is the idea of accumulated positive and negative Karma which can ripen.
As for knowledge of reincarnation - you're right - an ordinary person like myself can't perceive other lives - but some can - The Buddha and other realised teachers. There are instructions to find out.
Well, it is probably needless for me to go on about near-death experiences explained, many cases have been described similar to this one. I don't think anyone really 'knows' the truth behind their experiences, they usually are merely conditional. However, what has been explained is also indeterminate to complete justification as it does not contain all the answers. But for the answers that are still pending, it does not necessarily mean that a deity or divine force wins by default. It may be difficult to perceive exactly what was experienced, but nonetheless serves no complete justification as they cannot be completely understood without language or visual evidence being the carrier.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
"Total perfection" may be subjective to each individual, but it still usually pertains to an individual's idea of 'absolute bliss' like as what you seemingly described. Nevertheless both the nonspiritual and spiritual worlds as we 'know' them has still shared common compatibilities of the same aspirations and encompassments of goodness, peace, love and truth that will at least let us meet each other half way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
In this case, there are no choices as 'hell' is really the only choice. For even "perfection" is not perfect. Even Karma cannot fully determine which life of each creature is either loathsome, mediocre or most noble for the lives and 'emotions' of each cannot be fully understood. When I said "may be more gratifying," this does not necessarily mean that it will be gratifying. But at least you could return to Earth with more of a counterbalance of good and evil that can be logistically bearable.
From the Buddhist perspective, it's not about choice. That's our problem - we act in ignorence of the results of our actions which can lead to an unfortunate rebirth. Karma means action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serena03
You're right that Karma doesn't determine a being's life. There's no predestination, but choice dissipates when a being is born into an unfortunate realm. They are too taken up with the sufferings of that state.
Being human offers great potential. It's not about being atheist or not believing anything - it's about the morality of intentions. Intentions are not initially pure an the sense that there's no self interest in actions, but you have to start somewhere, and it can be improved.
Oh, no this was nothing about a near-death experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serena03
It cannot be proven either way. How do we know that heaven and hill is true?
It's just an only a superstitious belief..
It depends on your point of view/ beliefs etc, but there are hellish conditions that exist on earth. If a person believes that there is an afterlife of some kind, then doesn't the possibility of hell also exist?Quote:
Originally Posted by panel123
I beg to differ!Quote:
Originally Posted by panel123
Hills are a geological and geographical fact! Their existence cannot be denied!!!
Eee I missed that - or am I of the green marking pen brigade?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
This heaven and hell stuff is never ending. I do not think, in fact few think today, they exist physically. Does God too exist physically? Is God substantial? I mean God is made up of the substances we are made up of?
God is a concept, not a physical entity at all. We cannot beleive Greek Gods, millions of Hindu Gods, Christian Gods.
God is an idea, a product of our thought. The idea God is not God. This is an imagination. Yet the Universal God, the Impersonal God, the source all of us outsource to for our energies is a different issue I cannot deny.
Here most are groping for a way in the dark and fighting with another without realization
Yet clearly some people experience hellish and heavenly conditions on earth. Unfortunately I think hellish conditions are more common - whether that is a mental hell, as in certain mental health problems, or hellish physical conditions.
Having said that, your post seems to concur with the original point of the article in the OP. This was that the common western conceptions of heaven and hell has no basis in the christian scriptures or the Koran.
Why the "yet"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
To contrast with Blaze's post when he says heaven and hell do not exist physically - when the conditions for these do exist on earth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Propter W.
Ah, I see. But "hellish" or "heavenly" conditions on earth have nothing to do with the concepts of hell or heaven, imo. Sometimes people define god as nature, but we don't need a mystical term to describe something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Anyway, my brain's shutting down... Sorry for the feeble reply. Perhaps I'll be able to express myself more clearly in the morning!
No doubt in my mind which one there's more of here - the hellish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Heavenly conditions exist occasionally for the majority, but in such small increments as to be negligible against the enormity of lifelong hell that some endure.
That's right.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Why do people search for Heaven and Hell?
You can already find it here.
The OP was about modern conceptions of heaven and hell and how they are inconsistent with the Bible and the Koran.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skia
Like I said.
Either in the bible or the Koran, You can find heaven and hell on earth if you look hard enough...
You're right, and you don't have to look too hard. We were talking about the possibility of the existence of heaven and hell. If you believe in an afterlife, and you can see hellish conditions on earth, then the possibility of heaven/ hell existing in the hearafter increases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skia
There are hellish conditions... perhaps there are hell worlds. Who knows? I don't think of it often. I'm really inclined to say there's no permanent reality called hell. Buddhist cosmology states that there are many hell worlds and innumerable heaven worlds. Taoist, and actually every single spiritaul culture has found that there's a union of opposites. It's a really sacred truth humanity has had for millinnea. It's just a quiet knowing.
If I could provide evidence would any of you believe in either? These aren't physical locations that are evident by physical proof-- SO these things can only be proven through Spiritual tests (such as prayer and study in texts provided by whichever supreme creator that you think "most likely" real). Its all determined by feeling and spiritual confirmation. Sounds nutty but at the same time, if it IS nutty, then testing it out should come easy to you all.
What kind of evidence do you have?
Cause and effect.
Valid question.Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
The evidence that I would use for heaven or hell is what people who have had near death experiences tell us about it.
Yes, but if you are going to believe them then you might as well just believe what the scriptures teach... as long as we're gonna take someones word for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
I prefer taking someone's account of their experience more seriously than texts that might have been written by someone who had no experience in the matter but was articulating a theory.
Besides near death experiences one could include shared death experiences, after death communication and out of body experiences that might give some relevant information.
One of the things one can learn from these near death experiences is that anyone can have them. They don't have to be members of a specific religion who promote a specific sacred text. Now, that's good news.
true trueQuote:
Originally Posted by YesNo