Being a vegetarian is better,
This adds up health as well as life...
Now a day as there is no guarantee for life,fleshy food adds up cholesterol which is to be completely negotiated to a level from the diet
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Being a vegetarian is better,
This adds up health as well as life...
Now a day as there is no guarantee for life,fleshy food adds up cholesterol which is to be completely negotiated to a level from the diet
Some friends and I went to an all-meat restaurant for the first time yesterday - and damn good it was to!
Having expressed your view at the top of the thread, to which there's been a lot of response both pro and con, what do you expect to add by posting this series of carefully selected citations? Do you think some of the carnivores are going to smack their foreheads and say, "Jeez - George McGovern's giving pro-veg health advice! I shall cease eating cattle forthwith!"
It's starting to look, actually, as if you're not really interested in discussing, but pretty determined to propagandize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radha Krsna
The point about the slaughter of your own food is about realising and accepting the consequences of your actions. I think that many people would be uncomfortable with killing their own food, but are happy to let others do it. We're not talking about extreme situations, but the day to day choices that people make.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
In an extreme situation I would eat meat and kill an animal for my, and my family's survival, just as I would have eaten the human bodies in that Andes air crash. This is not the point though. Very few Westerners are in that survivial situation and we have a choice about what we choose to eat.
This is what the killing your own food point is about. Whether you buy it in supermarket, or hunt it down, it is a moral choice because it involves the suffering of another sentient being. I also think it is a choice an individual has to make, preferably with an appreciation of what really goes on. Preaching vegetarianism to people is counter productive and merely prompts sarcasm and extemity.
Very well stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Thanks Comedian. I think there is room for compromise, as you noted in your earlier post. The veggie question tends to polarize opinion a bit.
Two things here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
First, even as a pretty standard urban consumer, I think that I have sufficient imagination to understand the processes and consequences of eating meat - even without having to actually slaughter a pig. I do realise and I do accept the consequences of my actions. However, if killing an animal is a necessary precursor to eating meat, I'll sign up. I might learn something.
Still, as a strategy adopted by vegetarians in the hope of persuading carnivores not to eat meat, I think the insistence on killing pigs is a shaky one - because human beings are pretty callous when asked to inflict cruelty on a no-blame basis, and I think you might end up with a lot of utterly convinced butchers and a huge pile of pork chops.
But I don't think that the argument about secondary responsibility really applies in any practical way.
You say, "...many people would be uncomfortable with killing their own food, but are happy to let others do it." Which is true. That's how people are. And I can't see anything wrong with that, really. We all square that circle of disengagement from the process.
For instance - I can't think of anyone who doesn't - in one way or another - rely on coal. And digging coal out of the ground is not a pleasant thing to do. It's not merely an uncomfortable job - it's seriously unpleasant and quite dangerous. Yep - the miners get paid - but that's their bargain.
The rest of us get benefit from their suffering. We might not like to think about how coal gets out of the ground, but as we sit in our warm living rooms, we are happy that others do it. And that's the deal all of us make with life. We live with it. We might not like the implications of it - but we understand that's it's a slightly messed up universe.
For me, at least, the suffering of animals is something I can both regret and live with. I'm glad someone else is killing the animals* and I'm happy for them to do it, although I don't want to think about what that means. That's an implicit hypocrisy - but the dichotomy that fuels it isn't argument enough to persuade most carnivores to become vegetarian.
*Incidentally, ask me about my friend the turkey-farmer, and his December schedule. It's not pretty.
Hi MarkBastable. I wouldn't presume to know the extent of your imagination, and it wasn't meant that way. My point was to both vegetarians and meat eaters that it has to be a personal choice. I would dispute whether many people do make that choice though. I wasn't referring to your good self in this regard, as you clearly have some experience of the issue. When i was a meat eater, I too made the choice and accepted the consequences of this. Nothing needs to stay the same though.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
I would now not use the argument to persuade a meat eater either. I don't think soap box vegetarianism works, in fact I think it is counter productive. It may well harden attitudes.
Being aware of actions though is, I think, a good thing. It is about making informed choice against an upbringing, such as mine, that may well not offer choice or education or insight. Meat and two veg were the norm in my parents house, and they would have been very scornful of vegetarianism. If people choose, then fine. I think they are entitled to their choice. I maintain that it is a moral choice, factoring in the suffering of animals.
I hope you now don't think I was attacking you.
So what about this Turkey farmer? I hve a strong stomach - I used to work in a slaughterhouse.
Don't worry. I didn't feel attacked, or offended. The argument is an intellectual one for me. And for you, I guess. Though admittedly not for the pig.
I find the whole vegetarian debate very interesting. I’m not a vegetarian myself but I have been leaning towards that track for a while. It comes down to not really being able to justifying having a creature killed just so I can have a particular flavour filling for a sandwich! I mean, I like cheese, I like egg, I like a whole manner of things, so how can I justify putting meat in the middle when the others will do just fine?
As it happens I eat meat relatively rarely, but the point is I do still eat meat and why is that? No, I couldn’t kill a creature for the sake of one meal in a day-to-day context. I would find it a little difficult, (I think) it would be a too messy and quite frankly it would be just easier to boil some pasta or whatever.
I suppose it comes down to convenience and lack of choice in certain contexts. Often in restaurants in particular the vegetarian option is all too often a token choice with very little appeal. I usually struggle in these cases to go for the vegetarian option. I suppose the argument is that the more vegetarians there are, the better the choice there will be, market demand and all that, but where does that leave me in the meantime?
I think, however that I will eventually cut out meat altogether, and join the ranks of the vegetarians, I just see myself drifting this way.
Cheese is iffy. It is an animal by product (it doesn't harm the animal in any way) so if your views are strictly for not harming a creature, no biggy. Eggs, definitely. Eggs would eventually grow into chickens. I don't see how that counts as vegetarianism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neely
Meat is not strictly about taste. If I was more educated in nutrition, I would tell you, but something about amino acids, protein, things like that. For carnivores like myself, taste is a definite plus. But taste isn't the sole reason for consumption.
I think "kill to eat" is a rather weak argument for vegetarianism as I probably would not have many vegetables/fruit or fish either if I had to grow/catch them myself... Somewhat out of laziness, somewhat out of a dislike for serious gardening, I doubt I could/would grow everything I am happily consuming today.
PS: I am not a great meat-consumer but I wouldn't consider myself a vegetarian either.
Again, I think the "kill to eat" usually (or, at least, most usefully) occurs in the form of a "Would you..." thought experiment. Laziness or skill aside, gardening would of course be quite different to do or observe being done, for most people. I used to be completely oblivious to how meat made it into the supermarkets, and always sensed it would be troublesome to pursue such thinking.
Whatever one's conclusions, I think it is useful to think about how so much cheap meat comes about. Presumably, it could be even cheaper, if less consideration for the animals (and workers) were shown. Looking into current practices, I've seen some improvements (apparently, a growing fraction of veal, 35% on the Wikipedia page, is coming from animals that have been permitted to socialize, walk, and see grass and sky like normal cattle would), and plenty of situations that remain disturbing, and uncomfortable to contemplate.
I am sure that my eating habits aren't perfect, and I am no "fundamentalist" about animal suffering. But I think we can push back against the often inhuman thrust of large-industry profit motives, from time to time, at the very least. If not to shut a factory down, then perhaps to at least slow the line down, when necessary.
No-one can be compelled to vegetarianism, but it may be that our eating choices are really habits nurtured by a culture of meat eating. I was brought up on meat and two veg, and it was only later that I reflected upon it and decided to become a veggie. Similarly, there are veggie societies such as in parts of India.
The kill to eat argument isn't about actually having to do it - nobody needs to, as has been pointed out. It is sorted by others. It is about informed choices. Things are a little better nowadays in that there is more information available about meat production methods. My reaction to seeing information on factory farmed eggs on the TV at the age of 25 was to go free range. I didn't like what I saw.
If it is a moral choice, then a choice needs to be made. My younger self - and I am not referring to anyone else on this forum - didn't realise that there was a choice. It was just an eating habit.
Someone else has also pointed out the very bad representation of veggies that you get with celebrity chefs and cooking in general. We watch a number of such progs, and their attitude is consistently scornful. If they do a veggie dish, then it usually involves goat's cheese, which all my family think tastes of stables. Veggies are not well represented.
The moral aspect may be why meat eaters are a bit defensive about it. I think a choice is proper, and a non judgemental attitude to others best. It may become an increasingly poignant issue though if food poverty increases, and we have to re-evaluate our habits. Perhaps a sensible reduction would help.
Well, do not worry your heads off that way, some are compelled to vegetarianism. Around here meat is getting more and more expensive as each year passes...I think we (my family) will not afford to buy meat too often! Will we be vegetarians by choice? :blush: :D
Eggs? No eggs that are sold for human consumption are unfertilized, and fair food for vegetarians surely?Quote:
Eggs would eventually grow into chickens. I don't see how that counts as vegetarianism.
Though for me it is a moral choice of having an animal killed just for the sake of it. If I order a chicken salad I am effectively ordering the death of another chicken, which is starting to come across as a bit selfish from my perspective, when I could quite easily order something else. For me it is as simple as that.
I've improved my diet over the last 6 months or so and cutting out mass produced factory meat is just part of that move. I eat much more fruit and veg, pasta and rice, and cutting down of pizzas and such. So I sort of see my move towards vegetarianism as an extension of that. It is often hard to get quality meat or to guarantee the quality of it anyway - and top quality stuff is often hard to come by and on the expensive side. I certainly won't touch microwave ready meals and never have, just think of the meat in those!
I did go for an an Italian the other day and went for the vegetarian option, where usually I wouldn't have probably. I was a little disappointed with it, if I'm honest, as I said before I think they are often sort of token dishes in some restaurants, but in all reality I would be quite happy eating the margarita pizza washed down with a glass of red wine - so next time I'll just do that, it's not a problem.
Yes, it's probably only going to go up too. Where are you from anyway?Quote:
Well, do not worry your heads off that way, some are compelled to vegetarianism. Around here meat is getting more and more expensive as each year passes...I think we (my family) will not afford to buy meat too often! Will we be vegetarians by choice?
trust me you don't want to know :D
well, I think from now on people won't talk to me
:alien:
I'm from Romania :D
And I'm a Hungarian (we are a numerous minority here) - is that correct?! :redface:
No I do want to know I'm interested. What's wrong with Romania or being Hungarian?
Many western people are prejudiced about Romanians (not Hungarians), and they do have reasons (there are many Romanians going to their countries, and - to put it euphemistically - they tend to misbehave) nevertheless, there are many more that don't, but these aren't really in mass media, as the thugs and rapists,what's more, there are a lot of scientists for instance in America and almost everywhere else, both Hungarian and Romanian, that are very useful for those countries(Romanian educational system is not the best there can be, but it is tough enough, and if you're resistant, determined and ambitious, you have opportunities to learn, from excellent teachers). All in all this country and the people are not bad, they do commit mistakes, as all of us do, but as I said, the bad things are everywhere (TV, newspapers etc.), and there are several negative preconceptions about Romanians, although they are warm, kind and friendly, some of them even open-minded and smart! (But this is the wrong place for me to think that people judge according to the opinions of others.) Glad we cleared this! :)
Oh I see. I think it unlikely that many people here are going to hold such preconceived views of an entire nation - you're safe I think. :)
Thanks a lot Neely! That is quite relieving, though I should have been aware of the fact! Of late I've been so paranoid :rolleyes: about everything...(one explanation for this might be that I didn't get too many comments on my poem, and I honestly don't know what to think of it :( )
I work with a Romanian lady, and I have taught Romanians who can speak English, but needed to improve their grammar and spelling etc. If people are labelling a whole country, then they are frankly daft. There are nice people from everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackieGinger
I also travelled to Hungary in the early 90's. We really liked it - Budapest was great, and Lake Balaton was a brilliant place to visit. We found the people - as everywhere - very friendly.
As I understand the gist or idea of your post, I think it is a most important, beneficial, and necessary effort that we as humanity need to make. Thanks so much for stating this so well.Quote:
Originally Posted by billl
http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Av/Buddha/Buddha.htmQuote:
Originally Posted by Buddha
To each his own... I enjoy meat. Doing what is pleasant (in moderation) seems better to me than eating a diet based upon guilt.
NikolaiI, yes I like that one. Oh I have finished that book you recommended me, it was very interesting thanks, a good mixture of primary extracts.
Ah, the framing thing. You may say it is based on guilt or you may say it is based on empathy. That's called framing - how you frame it, to make it seem favourable or unfavourable.Quote:
Originally Posted by 9 Bean Rows
Technically, I suppose all opinion is "framed". However my comment was not based upon another person's reasoning, but simply my own (i.e. should I choose to 'go vegan'). I do not require everyone to agree with me in order to respect them nor do I feel compelled to demean those with whom I disagree. It's called tolerance, I believe.
H NikolaiI,
I should just point out that the Buddha is often claimed as part of the Hindu canon - an incarnation of Siva. Whilst this isn't a problem for Buddhists, there are fundamantal differences with regards to Karma, Reincarnation and the ultimate nature of reality in the teachings of the Buddha and texts like the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita. I just noted your source was a Hindu site.
I wasn't referring to your position but how you stated it. As in, I prefer to act in what is pleasurable (in moderation) rather than eat a diet out of guilt. That is using a word with negative implications. That's what framing is. The other side of the issue would be vegetarians who would say that their diet is the compassionate way, and that others are a heartless way. Then if they asked you, "Do you eat a diet that is the compassionate life-style or do you eat a diet which is heartless?" That's an extreme case but that illustrates what framing is. You can't answer the question because it isn't asked fairly but it is framed in a completely subjective way.Quote:
Originally Posted by 9 Bean Rows
I wasn't criticizing you just commenting, and of course the what you said wasn't a extreme case of it - just a mild form of framing to make it sound like those who are vegetarians, well that they are associated with guilt somehow.
It is a global economy - to each his own implies some kind of individual isolation, but the fact is that all actions have repercussions. No Man is an Island.Quote:
Originally Posted by 9 Bean Rows
The argument earlier in the thread was about choice and the consequences of choice. You could try to justify anything because it is pleasant. It's not really an argument.
Well, I would just probably give the example TheDave gave a long while ago, of Dave Scott, who lived on a vegetarian diet, winning the Olympic triathlon gold medal more than once...Quote:
Originally Posted by skib
As for nutrition, I can tell you that I am strong and healthy as a vegetarian, although perhaps not as strong and healthy as Dave Scott. But the point is that you can be strong and healthy as a vegetarian. And you can do serious exercise or sports, like Dave Scott.
As one person pointed out, there are societies in India, some places the whole village is vegetarian. And they are healthy and happy. They live their whole lives, long lives, healthy and happy. So that's pretty strong evidence that it's possible to live a long life free of disease.
And actually, Skib, there is very extensive research and studying giving a ton of evidence for the health benefits of eating a veggie diet. Less chances for almost all kinds of cancer is a big one, and many other diseases. Lifestyle of course is necessary, but those studies, I think they are fairly scientific. It's not just sentimentalism but those are facts.
I just saw your blog and I am not telling you what to do.
As for eggs, no egg you will buy in the store would ever have become a chicken, because they are unfertilized.
As for cheese - well, on farms where cows are loved and considered to be sacred, and kept with care and love; those are happy cows. And oxes used to work - that is their natural life. It is not exploiting to work, actually they need to work, just like certain types of dogs need to run every day.
Actually the Vedas say that the cow is one of the natural mothers of humans (one's natural mother, the teacher or the wife of one's teacher, the earth, the cow, etc.). They are considered to be the mother of humanity because of the nurturing relationship and how they provide us milk. And the ox is like the father. So that is why the cow is considered to be sacred and it is very wrong to kill them.
But Billl said it best. I understand that I am very unliked around here because I am a vegetarian, so I hope I don't tarnish him by saying that admire what he said. But it would be very good if we could give a push against the profit-is-the-bottom-line system which is going on - I know I can't say it as well as Bill. Another thing I heard someone say once, in response to the argument of doing good for humans is a higher priority than doing good for animals, was the following: knowing the agricultural and environmental benefits of growing crops to feed humans as opposed to growing grain to feed cattle, etc., what would be better than a reduction of grain-fed meat, for humans? That is, knowing how much more food would be available for feeding humans, as well as the environmental benefits too.
The idea of being vegetarians is really appealing.