Couldn't have said it better mellsom
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Couldn't have said it better mellsom
No Skasian, i cant remove it altogether. Sometimes i feel like i should refrain from using the term God as i don't want you to think i'm talking about the God from your faith or making references to christianity. I dub a "higher power" "God" because i find no other name for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
And yes, i do believe there is some kind of higher power - specifically a form of energy. But when i use/used the term "god like" i only used it to describe something greater than us, thus applying it to my belief that we don't reach that point in this life time, but it is my belief that we can achieve a higher state of mind that is GOD like.
Also God like is a term. I'm not trying to make it sound like we can all be rulers of the universe.
Unless I am wrong, creationism isn't taught in any states of America. Unless you mean private or religious schools, in those it may be. But in any public school it should not be.Quote:
Originally Posted by mellsom
I think if God exists, then no human term such as atheist or Christian matters. If God exists then all is in the will of God. Nothing, ultimately, would experience eternal suffering, or anything like that. We suffer for our own actions long before we have the right to point the finger at anyone else, let alone God, for our sufferings.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
But also the existence of God indiciates that we should seek God out. If something is beautiful, seemingly truthful, and also satisfies your soul at the same time, can it be bad? No, we are interested in whatever is beautiful and truthful to us. God is the same as truth, and within God are the forms of all else. So whatever is beautiful or truthful which we see always comes from God.
Believing in a higher power especially in a form of energy can be defined as God, as God made energy and he can communicate with us by energy. God doesnt necessarily mean a being that looks like an oversized human with long white beard. He is anything pure, all righteous and clean.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Yes Skasian I know that, of course I know that - i just want to make sure that you know when i am talking of God, i'm not talking about the Father of jesus - though i'm not saying that's not who God may be.
I'm not silly, of course i know its not a man with a long white beard..
It's the 9th of January and quite sunny and cool in London.
I do know you wouldnt picture God like this, I was just giving an example that God can be in form of anything as you said higher energy.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
I am happy for you. It's 10th of January and far too scorching and dry in New Zealand.Quote:
Originally Posted by kandaurov
You did read the reason for editing, right? Well what the hey, I'll just ask the question anyway: what do you mean when you say God is all that is 'clean'? And do you find the fact that God chose a people over all others righteous?
(Right, you have summer in New Zealand now, eh? Lucky!)
Actually I have no idea if there is a specific thread that discusses these kind of questions, but there are on going discussions between the religious and atheists and in betweens in this thread and other threads, so I dont think it matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by kandaurov
As you know I am a Christian, I will respond to your enquires with my thoughts as a Christian. First, in the Bible, first few chapters of Genesis indicates God did say 'There be Oceans! There be trees!'
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
If you read the first page of the bible you would know that God definitely created trees and oceans:)
When I said God was clean and good, I was talking about clear of impurities, and evil. In other words, SOURCE of good and light. For example, in a light bulb, it cannot emit darkness, only pure light.
Now here comes my thoughts as I am so insignificant to explain the nature and intention of God, as we mankind cant ever understand God.
I will take reference that in Garden of Eden, there was evil, as one of the Trees in the middle was Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Evil was obviously existed before The Fall of Man. I am not God, so I do not know why evil existed. My thought, evil existed in Earth to serve God. As we all know good overpowers evil, therefore evil can serve good. I think that earth is like a test for all mankind, the weighing of the righteous and good decisions of their freewill, ie accepting and believing in Jesus. Evil serves God by tempting individuals and testing if these people will fall for them or resist to look upwards to God. I think God gives us a choice to choose good or evil by giving us freewill, and hopes for everyone of His creation to choose good, and rightfully take the title of God's Children.
People dying from genocides: God cannot be held responsible. It was human's choice and freewill that lead to these conflicts, not God, so it cant wrong the fact that God is truely all righteous.
Yep I did read the foot notes, I just wanted to express the diversity of the weather in different regions of the world:)Quote:
Originally Posted by kandaurov
Clean, by clear from impurities, simply pure and all truth. I should consider my choice of adjectives in the future as it is causing a bit of a confusion.
Choosing some people over others. The reason why it seems that He "chooses" people I think is because He knows the future. A person may have freewill and free choice of all the decision of His life however as God knows every future move of every man, He will know who responds to His call, therefore to Him, these people who respond to Him in the future are "chosen" ones. Choosing may seem that He picks out by hand, but I think its just that He already knows who will follow Him.
(Yep! Summer all right!:D pity where I live I cant see snow in winter thou)
Right, just wanted to know what a Christian though about these matters. Thanks!
(been often told NZ is amazing, will visit it whenever I can. Must be odd to have summer at Christmas though!)
Thats alright! Happy to share my views:)Quote:
Originally Posted by kandaurov
(Oh yes, please visit, you can have a tour of the Lord of The Rings set in Wellington, if you are fan that is.. Yeah, sun sand surf and barbie in Christmas all good:) Our Christmas cards have pot bellied half naked santa surfing with sunglasses on, not the traditional covered up sleighing big red santa.. Seems we are getting a bit off topic, maybe I should link with Christmas and Christ..
I believe in God because Jesus Christ was born in a food bowl for cows and horses on Christmas day, born as Son of God, all pure, perfect. He was born to teach us with wisdom, correcting the old laws for our own convenience, born as a healer to cure the sick and give hope to the one suffering from darkness. He was born to be spat on, mocked and sworn on, born to suffer and die with nails being hammered in his hands and feet, to be slung by an arrow, crowned nailed thorns and be laughed at while he cried for us mankind in a cross.
Jesus Christ was born on Christmas day to be sent to earth to sacrifice Himself and be punished by us when He did nothing wrong. But we forget that on Christmas day, Christ was born to suffer for us, for our sins and for giving us the opportunity to live with God forever. Yet on Christmas day we rather focus on spending money for self indulgence and self satisfaction. On Christmas day, we forget that Christ sacrificed Himself simply because He loved us. Lest we forget His love. Lest we forget to love Him back and thank Him for being born on Christmas day.
I believe in God because He rose from death in three days, giving us a mission to spread the Word about God, and His works and words while in earth. I believe in God because He gives us hope and light in the darkest times in our world. I believe in God because He gave us meaning in the world, giving us the choice to thank Him for His time in earth, and spread the Word about Him. I believe in God because He is with us all the time. I believe in God because as He had done His painful work in earth, I want to repay His love for us by following His Words, and serving Him and His people.
So a big bang made this wonderful earth? Formed all those lovely planets and the skies and lined them up just so? Made them lovely? I don't think so. That was planned and done by God.
Cat
feel free to believe irrational notions. but leave em at that. no need to defend your creationist view with an appeal to beauty argumentQuote:
Originally Posted by Cat_Brenners
I think I jumped in too late here but to answer the original question isn't more reasonable to say you believe in God due to an environment that promotes the idea? Anyone can be indoctrinated into any religion. Cultures have a wide variety of how they view God. Since we live in the west I guess its more likely the conception of God is along the lines of the Abrahamic religions.
What makes this conception more superior? Doesn't the fact that religions and conceptions of god(s) are not uniform make you ponder at least a little on whether you could be incorrect?
Sounds like I might have hit a nerve. lol. I believe in what I know in my heart to be true. No one will convince me that it's irrational notions. Beauty and the formation of our earth and universe is as much an argument as anything I have heard here.
Hugs, Cat
Cat, good on you to link God with beauty. I believe that God is beauty because as He is immaculate, clear from any flaws, He is beautiful. The universe and everything in it is beautiful and that is becuase God has created them. Everything in the world are created by purpose with His intricate care and love.
Try and study the most insignificant feature you can find in nature, and there is no doubt that you will appreciate its complex beauty. Reason is that they are footprints of God, and every footprints made by God are inexplicably beautiful.
I agree with you whole-heartedly Cat and skasian. I also believe that all comes from the divine. Within everyone is that divine. This world only looks to be material because we cannot see beyond that. But actually everything is beautiful, everything is spiritual - not because it is all divine but because it all belongs to the divine. In fact you can see that the divine is within everything only if you really focus on it, even as you walk down the street or sidewalk. Life is eternal, and as William Blake said, if the doors of perception were cleansed, then we would see all as it is, infinite. Saints and rishis all supported this, they said that all is a play of the infinite, or in other words divine. I follow Hinduism more than anything else, but Christ taught the same thing, that there is life within you, the Kingdom of God... it is difficult to explain but it is the destination of the self.
Well, nature has its flaws. Humanity itself is a flawed species -- while other animals obtain satisfaction just by eating, sleeping and breeding, our intellect gives us the inspiration to achieve much more. It's why we have art, literature, science, and civilization in general. While that all sounds like a good thing, it just makes us self-serving wastes of space in the context of the natural world. We contribute basically nothing to it. We try and give back to nature by planting trees and constructing animal shelters, but that's really just an act of cleaning up our huge mess. Humans are just a scab on Earth's backside. I don't see any divinity in that.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
Humanity tends to personify what they are not aware of or what they fear. I say that because you mentioned the "footprints" of God on everything he created. If a god or gods did in fact exist, we could not possibly fathom their existence. We can try to by creating Bibles and religions, and painting pictures of saints and prophets, but in the end it really wouldn't make a difference.
I kind of stumbled into this thread at a late time so if I am intruding on some other discussion then ignore me. But, still, I don't see how anyone can believe anything based on faith, even if it's a question that science hasn't completely answered yet.
Considering that it wouldn't matter what this earth looked like, that as humans, living in the environment our entire lives, we would find beauty in whatever it was, I doubt the earth is beautiful. The earth is beautiful to us, and its inhabitants, because they've lived on it for billions of years.
sure but its the arrogance of thinking one knows (through belief--which is blasphemy of the word "know") the random, weird, contradictory whims of this dude named god, then making threats about hell when the only proofs lie in arrogance and ignorance, and finally admitting that you can't wait to throw the end of the world party with jesus---both of you toasting all the sinners into non-existence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat_Brenners
again, i've said it before on these forums. belief needs to be put on trial.
this is because faith is constantly given more value/virtue than open mindedness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat_Brenners
stone age homo sapiens also liked to attribute things they didnt understand, like thunder and lightning for an example, to a god. seems like, as a species, we cant seem to shake this archaic tendency. this doesnt prove the existence of god. it just proves that old habits are hard to break and that we like to name the unknown. makes us feel like we know itQuote:
Originally Posted by Cat_Brenners
I said on another board that I keep getting quoated but misinterpreted. I pray for everyone and hope no one burns in hell. I think sometimes people finally have to say " Let's agree to disagree and I will pray for you and love you anyways". God bless.
Hugs, Cat
Er, I deleted this post because it was irrelevant.
By that I mean I hope everyone makes their peace with God but I know it won't happen. Just wish it could be so.
Hugs, Cat
So it seems you are a fan of science - abit of a too much believer in science? I ask you, can science touch the spiritual level? I see you are relying on science to answer your interrogations about faith and belief however I am sorry to point out, it just never will.Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
There are differences between the physical world we live here and now and the eternal worlds in afterlife. As you, an atheist do not accept God in your life, you admitted "We contribute basically nothing to it." it being the world. This is natural, since you have no sense of spiritual motivation dedicated to a living God. The religious however is the opposite; we have a fixed motivation in our lives in earth and life in heaven. We do not think that we ourselves contribute nothing to the world. That my friend, is the difference between you and I, even though we may be compromised and surrounded by the same matter of the world.
Belief needs to be put on trial? For what offense? What did belief ever do to upset you? Belief is something personal; I have a sense of belief, you have a sense of belief in something completely different. We are all human, unique and no two are the same. Each individuals holds on to a belief that does not require the other to hold the same. What does it matter for you when you dont have to believe in someone elses belief? If someone has a completely contrasting belief than yours, then dont rebuke and disagree it too seriously - everyone in the world has a right to have a belief and no one should dare stop one from having that belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by billyjack
Well, you can't "believe" in science, because science is not a belief. It is a procedure of collecting evidence, researching, investigating and observing. Plus, science does give us spirituality. You feel happy when you think of religion, and you feel things you can't explain, am I correct? That's your brain giving you those feelings. There's no rationality in faith. Logic and rationality is what places humans on top of the food chain, and when we build our lives around faith we discredit those traits. Of course all humans have a sense of wonder, and they question whether a god exists or not. But why should we subscribe so heavily to the belief in a god based on pure faith? You probably don't believe in Norse gods such as Odin and Thor. I don't think you believe in scientology either -- yet there's about as much truth to scientology being correct then there is Christianity (or any monotheistic religion for that matter). So who says the Judeo-Christian god is the right one? Irrational conclusions, i.e. faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
And by the world, I meant the natural world, because you kept harping on how everything in nature is somehow divine. If you look in the context of OUR world, the one we created, then yes, we have contributed great things. We have a civilized system of government, currency, language, architecture, et cetera. But that means nothing when nature is involved. We are not even a dot on the map in regards to the universe. I don't see how you can argue that. Our intellect gives us a superiority complex and is easily explainable with science.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
But let me make my stance clear -- I understand people who believe in god because I have wondered that so many times myself. Although I'm an atheist I don't trot around pretending like that's the absolute truth because we can never know. However, I don't see how someone can believe so heavily in the idea of a god existing. Nothing makes the bible more important than the Qu'ran or the Bhagavad Gita or even Norse mythology, and vice versa for all those.
JacobF,
I admire and agree with most of what you say. But one line I find rather bemusing. You say that "Although I'm an atheist I don't trot around pretending like that's the absolute truth because we can never know". Does that statement not make you an agnostic rather than an atheist?
I call myself an atheist, because, for me, neither knowledge or truth have to be absolute. If they did, we would all have to call ourselves solipsists. But just as the solipsist goes too far with his or her quest for certainty, so does the aspiring agnostic. We CAN say we know there is no god with as much certainty as we can say we know anything else, that we know the sun will rise tomorrow. In fact, our observations and experiments show that the existence of god is as likely as the sun not rising tomorrow: ie there is no evidence to suggest either to be the case, and all our observations suggest the contrary.
What sort of experiments and observations suggest that there is no God? I can understand how someone could say there is no evidence that must necessarily be attributed to the existence of God, but I don't know what tests have been run that show that God probably does not exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
I call myself an atheist because that's my subjective belief. I really don't think there is a god or gods. What I said, that we can never know if there is a god, was more against the notion that there absolutely is no god, because how can we ever know that? I'm simply inclined to believe there is no god because there has never been any evidence or inklings toward one existing. It is, to me, the most rational and truthful stance. I suppose that makes me a weak atheist, but so be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
As an atheist I just want to point out that were not anti-theists. There is a difference. I agree with the atheists here and what our opinion is, hopefully not being too presumptious here, while we do not believe in the spiritual world our only objection is when scripture or dogma makes assertions about the physical universe that are incorrect. Even if they were correct an appeal to dogma would halt progress. Atheists believe in the scientific method not scientific theories that exist today. We only use the ones we have currently because they are the best. We're expecting better.
As for the spiritual I think most of us here nailed it. I think most of us have some wonder and appreciation for the universe only because we are conscious observers. Like other posters have said its only beautiful to us.
There might exists a god or gods beyond the universe but after all the millenia of billions of people begging for "His" appearance "He" is at best sadistic.
Everything we do and everything we hear -- everyone we are around, all this has effect on us. I am going to leave these forums for a little while at least, because I am not helping anyone I think, and I am not being helped myself because I think I care too much about all you people. When I am trying to tell people about the divine, I am not trying to get people to be irrational. The divine is not irrational. But I am not trying to convince you of this, I am merely trying to give you an alternate option, an alternate route, to atheism. Cat and skasian have said things well. Christ said he was teaching a well-spring which was inside us, and which did not ever end. I have partly realized this is love of God, dormant within us. You cannot have this randomly or for no reason, or if you just wish to demand it. Everything in our life is made up of our own intentions, of what we hear, what we say, what we do, eat, breathe, what we read, etc; it's a vast conglomorations of intention and suggestion and will. Godhead is not irrational, actually Godhead is supreme and infinite. This may seem foreign -- especially in our society which revolves around the desire for sex enjoyment. But actually we are souls, we are spirit, we are not just matter. We can't derive happiness from squeezing it out of matter - it doesn't work. And so we should seek for God, seek out the soul - Harrison said this often. And this is what I was trying to discuss. I was trying to discuss the divine. But it does not work if people do not come with any kind of open mind. If they wish to start a war on belief -- on faith. This is actually something like nihilism. Anyway I just wished to say that I wish you all peace -- and God is not saddistic He is the source of love, beauty, truth, etc. You do not see it but if you search for it you will find it. This is part of the infinte source from which you are sprung. It is your right. It is much better than living for material life. But while it is not offensive to me for someone to say they are atheist -- trust me, it is not -- it is offensive for believers -- devotees -- to be insulted, to be called delusional, and this has happened.
Actually there are traditions from all around the world which go very far back -- philosophical traditions, religious traditions... I say tradition but i don't mean dogma, because these traditions are made up of the lives and contributions of so many people. There is not a place you can go on this earth where you will not find love and beauty.
Um, so yeah, peace and good health. Bye.
Well, I tried to be as respectful as I could. And to be honest, I thought I approached this thread with a pretty open mind. I simply posed general questions to believers in the thread (I think I asked skasian about the Old Testament, I'll have to look back and see) and it continued from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
Once again, I see no inklings of insult or animosity from any atheist or believer in this thread. Compared to other religious threads I have seen on other forums, this one is pretty civil.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
I apologize sincerely if you thought I meant this at all about you, I didn't. And looking back a couple of pages I see you are right about this thread. So perhaps it is just a delayed reaction to people being called "delusional." In this case I wrote it on the wrong thread... I apologize and withdraw what I said. I guess in that light it isn't helpful. But if anyone calls anyone delusional, I am gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
In every effect there is a cause. I can not see the wind but I know it's there, I breath it, I see the trees dances because of it.
The whole universe exists. Everything exists. The ultimate ground of existence is what I call GOD/god or whatever you might call it.
Call it datulakan, faith or no faith, it's there.
There are people that believe in science, especially in evolution. They BELIEVE that they come from a long line of cave men and apes etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
Science does not touch the spirit. Science cannot form an equation of the spirit because it cannot explain what it is. Religion making us happy? Being happy is just a response from a stimuli, which in this case is God. Other than this basic idea, science doesnt explain religion or spirit all together.
Try and define faith. Easy right? But try to understand faith and try for yourself to have faith in something. Not easy. You may have hard time trying to have faith that you cant see, but when you open your heart and be WILLING to accept a God, then faith forms.
Everything in nature that is not human made, ie organic is divine and beautiful in everyway,and yes we are a dot in the universe, we have a since of direction and space, therefore as we may look very insignificant in the universe, we are all important in the universe regardless of size.
The theory of evolution comes out often in these debates and I think its being unfairly judged. Does it have flaws? Yes. However until science has a better theory on the development of life on this planet its the best answer based on empirical evidence we have.
If this theory were on trial today and you were the jury consider this: If God created all the organisms just as they were would you expect all the animals to remain the same as they were or change over time? Evidence such as new strains and mutations in genes suggests that every form of life is evolving. More evidence includes genetic make up mammals close to the human and a large extent of the genes match. At the forefront of modern medicine the theory of evolution is being applied to every recess of research from stem cells to mapping the DNA of life forms and recognizing mutations in genes which can cause diseases. And its working.
So in light of this evidence one can suppose two possible answers. That evolution occured previously and will continue to do so, or evolution occured after God created all life. To say evolution doesn't not occur is blatantly incorrect. If you wish to believe theory B thats okay however I believe it is more reasonable to assume the first considering if you extrapolate this theory back to the beginning you would have small handful of life forms evolving to more varieties.
This isn't an attact on faith however an appeal for the "God did it theory" is an appeal to ignorance because it is not a scientific theory, does not improve modern medicine and halts the well being of those who will one day need it.
You can have faith in whatever you want. Everyone is entitled to that. However science improves lives physically and of course you need to be physically well before you can appreciate anything right?
They don't just BELIEVE in evolution, they have some evidence to back it up. A belief is very subjective, such as "do you believe in god." To deny evolution, even though it is not a perfect theory (no theory is) is to deny real evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
Plus, I've felt faith before. I used to go to church and I genuinely believed in god and the bible. But when I reached an age when I started to think, I realized god was made-up and the bible was just a bed-time story for grown-ups. But today I still feel faith. Not in god, but faith in friends and family, because they are close to me and are part of my life. They aren't imaginary. I had faith in my mom when she started her own business, faith in myself when I do theater. It's an irrational emotion drawn from insecurity, and while it made me feel better I would never build my existence, my identity around it. Let alone would I let faith haze my judgment enough that I follow an age-old scripture which was written as an authoritative tool more than anything.
Science can't explain what isn't there. So, you are correct in that science can't explain the spirit. The spirit is an idea and nothing more. And you don't even need science to explain religion. It was created as a psychological remedy for the natural insecurity that people felt, as well as being a great tool for spreading culture and in turn expanding empires. Just look at how well the Islamic empire spread after Mohammed's death.
As for your last paragraph, you just keep regurgitating that, somehow, everything in nature is divine. Yet science has explanations for the development of nature and, even though they are not perfected, they are better than the cop-out that "god did it all."
Your only main point is that I have to have faith in order to see things as divine. That I have to 'accept faith' in order to see things the way you do. But I've been through all that faith-in-god stuff in my life and I've learned from it that it's pretty much imaginary. I don't claim to know everything about the universe from this self-revelation, but I do know that freeing myself from the prison that is believing in god has helped me see things more clearly, see things for what they are, not 'divine.' As ohmy said, you're entitled to your faith but it's my belief that faith in god is not necessary for humanity.
i think you really made the point for me: science will not and cannot make claims about that which is unknowable (ie that which cant be explained, just experienced and felt), ie the spirit, the numinous, oneness, that which makes us marvel at the universe, whatever you choose to call it is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
religion on the other hand doesnt just make claims, it professes a knowledge of the unknowable that is remarkably detailed considering its unknowability.
on a sidenote. speaking of the unknowable as a known strips it of its luster, takes the shine off the apple. infects our sense of awe and replaces it with a sense of loyalty to ancient writers