Evolution vs. Creation

An old saying: There are no atheists in foxholes. Fear makes many a believer. Professor Flew is 81 years old, nearing the end of his earthly existence as a human. I'm not surprised that he is covering all the bases......just in case. And of course, octogenerians are not exactly well known for retaining complete control of their mental faculties. And one more thing.....who asked the question of him? What bias was injected into this report by the source searching for this answer so as to be newsworthy. And where was it reported? What medium? Was it reported in a religious forum type media? Huh? HUh? *whew*

81 years old? Now that begins to make sense. I second Baddad if he doesn't mind me doing so. Though I think it's not a very good atheist that decides to convert at the last minute - just in case. You're right...it must be age.

Just as I expected..the comments I mean..thank you baddad :nod:


And by the way Missus Darcy, hope that it won't happen to you when you grow old..the age thingy..:rolleyes:..

Just so the 'no atheist in foxholes' thing is out in the open as well, www.maaf.info proves a point in the right direction there.

I'd agree with the age breeds fear idea as well, since well, what harm is there in it at that point in believing just in case, since by then you're pretty much able to make up your own mind without much interference by others. Death is the one unknown that scares more people than any other, so the need for an afterlife more and more as one approaches the time of death isn't too absurd, albeit hypocritical of one's beliefs.

Just to clear things up: not all religious based newspapers twist the facts to support themselves, and going by that thought I wouldn't trust too many secular newspapers either.

Exactly Stan....


So, I think there's a posibillity that one day Dyr and AP change their minds sometime in the future about these evolution and divine being things....

But I'm just wondering, is it only cause the age problem???? Seriously, can't you give something better than that???? Or age is the ONLY reason that you can give to explain about the professor's conversion???

I mean the prof was an atheist for almost his entire life, and suddenly the thought of death scares him alot or perhaps suddendly, he experieced some nerves breakdown, then he converted....I mean is that all????

D'oh
This man was an atheist for long years and he's an intellectual, so you think he just suddenly stunned and said..."OH THERE'S A GOD...".....

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Originally Posted by Miss Darcy

My personal opinion is that this professor was so stunned by the diversity of the microcosmic world, so amazed by the intricate workings of DNA, that he decided that something must have created them - which is certainly untrue. With a bit of logic you'll realise that it would take forever and ever for any god, infinite or not, to put together this very intricateness. No human or godly design could ever make this. This is natural phenomenon.

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maybe he found God through the Grace of God? A revelation.

Yeah, ok Stan, Sub, I never meant to imply that secular media were anymore trustworthy than 'specialty' media, and in fact, my post addressed that very issue of 'media bias'. All I'm saying is that someone may have obviously tried to use the Prof. as a progaganda ploy, and in fact as I reread the quotes reportedly made by the prof I note how easy it is to frame a question so as to get a certain slant with the answer.

And I would never begrudge anyone believing whatever they want, whatever makes them feel good ! It is all good. The Prof has the right to believe whatever he likes, and more power to him!

But really, one's age cannot be discounted as a catalyst, as age is a good reason, if not a driving force, of change to one's perspective. It is not an unlikely occurence (aging=rethinking a position) nor is it a 'simple' solution to a complex question. Time changes us all, waning days occupy the mind with speculation about death, what is it like? will I know I'm dead? do 'I' just stop? At 81 years old a person has already outlived many if not most of your friends, family, perhaps even some of your children.

Perhaps the Prof. had a revelation. Yes, perhaps.

Agree with you there baddad. I posted that excerpts not with the intention to defend one party, just merely trying to "throw" a discourse..What happened to someone, eventhough that he's a professor, can't be generalized to other people.

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Originally Posted by baddad

And I would never begrudge anyone believing whatever they want, whatever makes them feel good ! It is all good. The Prof has the right to believe whatever he likes, and more power to him!.

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Originally Posted by subterranean

Exactly Stan....


So, I think there's a posibillity that one day Dyr and AP change their minds sometime in the future about these evolution and divine being things....

But I'm just wondering, is it only cause the age problem???? Seriously, can't you give something better than that???? Or age is the ONLY reason that you can give to explain about the professor's conversion???

I mean the prof was an atheist for almost his entire life, and suddenly the thought of death scares him alot or perhaps suddendly, he experieced some nerves breakdown, then he converted....I mean is that all????

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Most "recant" stories in the news are just propaganda anyways to further the cause of religion in other people. So that they might stop and think, "See, even I can change someday to find the truth." Or some such idealistic thinking towards such concepts. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but to be fair, you don't hear many stories about people deconverting too often in the mainstream.

A person's reasons for changing their beliefs about a topic such as gods means only anything to the person in question, very rarely has it anything to do with why I believe or how I will in the future. Many people grow up and lose gods, others gain them. That's life, we all cope with it in different ways.

Don't you think this is a two way street? Like an atheist professor 'sees the light', a religious person can also realise that his/her beliefs are not satisfactory anymore and become an atheist/agnostic etc... None of us know how our future expriences will affect us.

Indeed.............

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

.. None of us know how our future expriences will affect us.

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Originally Posted by Scheherazade

Don't you think this is a two way street? Like an atheist professor 'sees the light', a religious person can also realise that his/her beliefs are not satisfactory anymore and become an atheist/agnostic etc... None of us know how our future expriences will affect us.

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Well, I thought that was assumed, but so be it: Yes it's a two-way street and I didn't meant to imply anything other than that, though I can only comment on what I've seen.

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Originally Posted by Dyrwen

Most "recant" stories in the news are just propaganda anyways to further the cause of religion in other people. So that they might stop and think, "See, even I can change someday to find the truth." Or some such idealistic thinking towards such concepts. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but to be fair, you don't hear many stories about people deconverting too often in the mainstream.

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Most news stories in the media have been exceptionaly anti christian. I have seen alot of anti-christian propoganda, I am not sure where this pro christian propoganda that you speak of is.

Just look in the UK press. We constantly get articles, letters and opinion columns defending the existence of religious schools; the incitement to religious hatred bill; the loss of family values due to loss of religion; etc etc.

Well, atleast here in Canada, where I am, the newspapers are very anti christian

Maybe they are making up for all those centuries of aggressive persecution of dissent against Christianity:)

Maybe they are a bunch of narrow minded loud mouths who persecute one group for no reason other than hatred for that group. :mad:

If you were a scientist and you wanted to make a new life form, how would you go about it? If you were the life form created, how would you define your existence? Evolution vs creation is a fruitless subject, since the evidence on both sides can point to one side or the other. The one question you should ask your self is; which is more profitable to you? That there is a God who loves you and wants you to be with Him for eternity? or your just a big bag of dirt and when you die you will return to the earth and your existence will end.

Bag of dirt. No contest.

Pascal's Wager isn't effective, realize that or just stop talking.

I don't need a god in my life, whereas using your argument, I would only need a god in an after-life, which may or may not exist. Until you can make a decent reason to believe in a god, while I'm alive, you'll continue to meet resistance over the idea you're presenting. Work on that though, really.

By the way, if you could cite some of that "evidence" presented by creationists that contradicts evolution, I'm sure we'd all find it useful in believing your idea presented, again.

For you my friend there is no argument that would persuade you. Your mind is made up. The bible calls this state the state of the walking dead. So enjoy your existance, until you do die. Then when you are in front of the living God, you can tell Him that he doesn't exist.

Least you're willing to admit, by mere suggestion, that your mind is made up as well. So I can respect our mutual disagreement, heh. Better not to be persuaded by the mere mouths of men, than face the consequences of an alternate god in the end. Or as a more appropriate wordsmith would say it:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson, 1787

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Originally Posted by Dyrwen

Or as a more appropriate wordsmith would say it:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson, 1787

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...IMHO...
Hear, hear! No god could show disfavour towards rational thinking. Organized religions' approach seems to be an appeal to emotion, and not an appeal to human kinds ability to think for themselves. Religious groups prefer to indoctrinate people early in life, the younger the better if the brainwashing is to take a strong hold and last a lifetime. Fear is used as the stick, and an everlasting life of happiness at some undefined point in the future is the carrot. The last thing any church wishes its parishinners to do is think for themselves. What they really want is for you to hand over your free will to them because it is obvious by their reasoning that people cannot be trusted to think for themselves. If there is a God, he would probably be dismayed, at least, with the tactics and irreverent partisan approaches taken by organized religions.

qO978: So spiritual belief (according to one of YOUR posts) is a matter of profitability? And the notion of profitability is tied to either faith (God exists) or scientific fact? I do believe in choosing whatever perspective makes one's life the easiest, as long as it injures no others. But to ignore truth (we ARE of the earth, chemicals, gasses, etc) as so many religions advocate seems to me to be exactly the trouble with organized religion; "ignore truth, believe us".
I think I'll advocate for truth and fact. But hey, that's just me.....

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Originally Posted by baddad

I think I'll advocate for truth and fact. But hey, that's just me.....

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*Vehemently* It is not just you, you've got pretty much every atheist in the world behind you... :nod:

I'm afraid there's so much proof against God that there is absolutely no reason to believe in him. Or her. But I don't think most Christians call God a her...simply for the reason that Christianity is ruthlessly sexist, giving no rights to women...that is, Christianity in its wholeness is merely faith in a book, and therefore we should consider all in this book to be adhered to.

And as to "evidence" for creationism...I'd be extremely interested to hear it. So please don't hold me in suspense for too long. You know what I mean by evidence...logical, credible stuff, not mythology of any kind...though I do love mythology...I digress. :D And I don't want "miracles", either, because any that have happened in actuality have been merely natural phenomena.

Darcy

P.S. Well, Sub, I've got a great idea. If I change my mind about God, I'll get back to you in 65 years to tell you how and why. ;) Though I must admit anything can happen, I am even more willing to admit I see absolutely no chance of that happening. And even if it did, I'd only have to read a paragraph or so of Dawkins, or Hawking, or Gribbin, or anyone like that, and I'd easily slip back into atheism with a sigh of relief.

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Originally Posted by q0987

For you my friend there is no argument that would persuade you. Your mind is made up. The bible calls this state the state of the walking dead. So enjoy your existance, until you do die. Then when you are in front of the living God, you can tell Him that he doesn't exist.

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Well, not everyone on this forum is uh... 'walking dead'. I was born and raised Christian and have just... 'converted' to atheism. My mind is far from made up and I still search Christianity, Buhddism, non-religious ethics, etc... for direction in how to live my life, and I gotta say, Dyr and AP make a helluva lot more sense to me than Mr. 'I don't want to argue with the walking dead'. Way to spread the Good news q0987!!! Keep us new atheists away from your silly church.

Please let's remember to keep the discussions -especially those which relate to sensitive issues such as religion- within the Forum rules and respect each other's views even though we do not agree with them.

sorry :ashamed:

Well I think q0987's statement is no better..So no need to feel sorry Kik

Could you give the scriptural reference for this please. I don't recall reading this before.

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Originally Posted by q0987

For you my friend there is no argument that would persuade you. Your mind is made up. The bible calls this state the state of the walking dead. So enjoy your existance, until you do die. Then when you are in front of the living God, you can tell Him that he doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by baddad

...IMHO...
Hear, hear! No god could show disfavour towards rational thinking. Organized religions' approach seems to be an appeal to emotion, and not an appeal to human kinds ability to think for themselves. Religious groups prefer to indoctrinate people early in life, the younger the better if the brainwashing is to take a strong hold and last a lifetime. Fear is used as the stick, and an everlasting life of happiness at some undefined point in the future is the carrot. The last thing any church wishes its parishinners to do is think for themselves. What they really want is for you to hand over your free will to them because it is obvious by their reasoning that people cannot be trusted to think for themselves. If there is a God, he would probably be dismayed, at least, with the tactics and irreverent partisan approaches taken by organized religions.

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Well, er, ahem... Organized religion isn't about brain washing, it is about worshiping God, and learning of his will for people on Earth. It is not about indoctrination, it is about belief and faith. One doesn't call there home an indoctrination facility, so why should a simple structure that houses the concecrated body of christ an indoctrination facility???

And athiesism has it's "carrots" aswell. A life wher one may do whatever they please because there is no eternal consequance.

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You know what I mean by evidence...logical, credible stuff, not mythology of any kind...though I do love mythology...I digress. And I don't want "miracles", either, because any that have happened in actuality have been merely natural phenomena.

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:rolleyes: well you see there is no concrete proof, THAT IS WHY IT IS CALLED FAITH. And mmiracles have happened, infact there are quitew a few, there are the biblical miracles, there are the stigmata miracles, there is the miracle at Guadalupe! So just stating that there are no miracles is tripe, I would like to see your proof that no miracles have occured!

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qO978: So spiritual belief (according to one of YOUR posts) is a matter of profitability? And the notion of profitability is tied to either faith (God exists) or scientific fact? I do believe in choosing whatever perspective makes one's life the easiest, as long as it injures no others. But to ignore truth (we ARE of the earth, chemicals, gasses, etc) as so many religions advocate seems to me to be exactly the trouble with organized religion; "ignore truth, believe us".

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Organized religion does not preach to ignore facts, and the bibal states that man is made of the earth, read Genisis for that'ne.
And it is not ignore truth believe us, it is ignore heracy believe God.

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Originally Posted by Stanislaw

Well, er, ahem... Organized religion isn't about brain washing, it is about worshiping God, and learning of his will for people on Earth. It is not about indoctrination, it is about belief and faith. One doesn't call there home an indoctrination facility, so why should a simple structure that houses the concecrated body of christ an indoctrination facility???

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Wow. You sound a bit brainwashed. Actually, a lot of people do think of the home as a brainwashing facility and see it as the task of becoming an adult to liberate themselves from the received ideas passed on to them by their parents. One of which might be religious belief.

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Originally Posted by Stanislaw

And athiesism has it's "carrots" aswell. A life wher one may do whatever they please because there is no eternal consequance.

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Sorry, but this is just nonsense. Every action has a consequence - although the idea of heaven is a fantasy of a place where there aren't any and the idea of being forgiven all your sins and going there is a fantasy of the consequences here on earth ultimately not mattering.

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Originally Posted by Stanislaw

:rolleyes: well you see there is no concrete proof, THAT IS WHY IT IS CALLED FAITH. And mmiracles have happened, infact there are quitew a few, there are the biblical miracles, there are the stigmata miracles, there is the miracle at Guadalupe! So just stating that there are no miracles is tripe, I would like to see your proof that no miracles have occured!

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Yes. This is why these arguments are so pointless - because the religionists deny the basic terms of argumentation from the outset, stating that through their faith, their going to continue to believe no matter what arguments the rest of us offer. Their faith apparently doesn't extend to faith in the idea of logical argument. And yet they continue to argue.
You immediately jump from stating that proof doesn't matter to giving proof. This obstinate clinging to something that doesn't make sense is making you incoherent, or preserving your incoherence.

How can you be so sure?

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Originally Posted by Miss Darcy

*Vehemently* It is not P.S. Well, Sub, I've got a great idea. If I change my mind about God, I'll get back to you in 65 years to tell you how and why. ;) Though I must admit anything can happen, I am even more willing to admit I see absolutely no chance of that happening. And even if it did, I'd only have to read a paragraph or so of Dawkins, or Hawking, or Gribbin, or anyone like that, and I'd easily slip back into atheism with a sigh of relief.

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Just a silly question:

Did the ancient man have the same body structure as today's man? I mean did he have same, for example, digestion system, neuron system, blood circulation system, etc???

Ancient man, in terms of <10k years ago did have basically the same structure biologically and mentally. They just weren't exposed to the same amount of information to become as full brained, pardon the term, as we have. For the most part, mammals hold the same organs, and only differ depending on diet. Like how hyenas can digest hooves, human teeth are built for omnivorous eating, I'd imagine apes have a certain resistence to certain potencies of citrus depending on their fruit intake.

So Dyr, do you mean that ancient man had less complex systems than ours? I mean for example less complex brain and lung structure?

Is that mean also that we have systems (respiration, digestion, etc) which already evolve?

Well, we're always evolving minimally. If your family are great swimmers more than two generations back, then usually the ability to hold your breath, or even move your muscles in a manner less physically exerting sometimes is created through adaptation.

I'm saying that we had the same general systems though. Our brains were about as complex, they just weren't able to be used as thoroughly since our understanding of the world was lessened. For the most part, you could say they were as creative as we are since all mankind has that natural portion of our minds, but the difference of biological structures was more than likely just more reliance on physical adaptation over time rather than mental. Anything huge though, like loss of hair or walking on two legs, obviously takes a lot more time.

Like how some folks say their good at math because their parents were, but back in the day one might've been good with a bow, rather than a spear because of where one grew up or how one's family hunted. Hard to say, really, but int terms of skeletal structures, we're pretty sure that a primitive mind was just as capable of all we're capable of today. Even the neanderthals had larger brains than homo sapiens (which were chro-magnums (sp)) at the time) until we wiped them out.

Hopefully that answers somewhat of your question.

You see, there is no ultimate proof for or against God. There are minor proofs, but for the most part, athiests ignore them.

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Originally Posted by blp

Wow. You sound a bit brainwashed. Actually, a lot of people do think of the home as a brainwashing facility and see it as the task of becoming an adult to liberate themselves from the received ideas passed on to them by their parents. One of which might be religious belief.


Sorry, but this is just nonsense. Every action has a consequence - although the idea of heaven is a fantasy of a place where there aren't any and the idea of being forgiven all your sins and going there is a fantasy of the consequences here on earth ultimately not mattering.





Yes. This is why these arguments are so pointless - because the religionists deny the basic terms of argumentation from the outset, stating that through their faith, their going to continue to believe no matter what arguments the rest of us offer. Their faith apparently doesn't extend to faith in the idea of logical argument. And yet they continue to argue.
You immediately jump from stating that proof doesn't matter to giving proof. This obstinate clinging to something that doesn't make sense is making you incoherent, or preserving your incoherence.

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There are countless creation myths the world over - but of course the old testament is the only true story. Of course. God just made all the other ones up to...er...to test us! That's it - to test our faith. That and the dinosaur bones. HELLO!