It is difficult to come to terms with the idea of nothingness...

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02-09-2010, 06:51 PM
Paulclem

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

The scientific perspective on where we get our morality is simple... sweet, sweet evolution. Humans don't have claws, or sharp teeth, or fur... while other species can use conflict to obtain the resources that they need, we have to rely on cooperation to survive. Rules of right and wrong ensure that our species continues to exist. Behaviour which is beneficial to the group is sustained, and that which harms the group is selected against (we kill the offender, or put them somewhere where they won't be able to reproduce, like prison). Behaviour which we now consider "bad" is that which harms the group, and that which harms the group tends to debilitate either ourselves or our offspring in the long run. That's why the majority of people don't go around stealing, raping and murdering. That's where morality comes from. We don't need the idea of a god to instruct us, it‘s just common sense.

Don't get me wrong, people still do bad things; however, some system of laws and morality has existed in every culture, and arose because of the group's need to cooperate.

Besides, religious people do bad things ALL THE TIME. Spanish inquisition, anyone? And, Hitler thought that he was doing God's work. Yeah, religious people are always sweethearts.

A bit of a generalisation, but it seems so. I think religious people who do bad things become more high profile because we experct them to be good/ better(?) for being religious. It is especially disappointing for such a person to flaunt the law/ morality.

There have been quite a number of scandals, child abuse, corruption, double standards and so on, but there are lots of religious people out there quietly doing good - helping the homeles, Haiti etc,etc. It is a shame to tar these people with the same brush.
02-09-2010, 08:07 PM
OrphanPip

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

The scientific perspective on where we get our morality is simple... sweet, sweet evolution. Humans don't have claws, or sharp teeth, or fur... while other species can use conflict to obtain the resources that they need, we have to rely on cooperation to survive. Rules of right and wrong ensure that our species continues to exist. Behaviour which is beneficial to the group is sustained, and that which harms the group is selected against (we kill the offender, or put them somewhere where they won't be able to reproduce, like prison). Behaviour which we now consider "bad" is that which harms the group, and that which harms the group tends to debilitate either ourselves or our offspring in the long run. That's why the majority of people don't go around stealing, raping and murdering. That's where morality comes from. We don't need the idea of a god to instruct us, it‘s just common sense.

Group selection is kind of a weak hypothesis, it isn't really supported by any substantial evidence. It makes logical sense, but there are better explanations. I would go with kin-selection and reciprocal altruism to explain the evolution of morality in humans. Selection working on the level of the individual rather than the group is better supported by the evidence.

Individuals who are moral and cooperate better with others will have a higher chance of survival, thus genes that promote cooperation, thus moral behavior, get selected for. I'm just nitpicking but I prefer to crack down on group selection whenever I see it prop up.
02-10-2010, 07:52 AM
caddy_caddy

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

I've always been fascinated by the atheist's concept of death. The atheistic belief is that when you die, that's it. It is the end of you, the end of your person, end of story. This is a difficult idea to cozy up to. Personally, I think that it takes a lot of courage. So here's what I want to know:

Atheists: How do you come to terms with death? The actual idea that you will end? What do you think it'll be like, to not exist (that's a weird question, but go with it)? Do you have any hope that your consciousness will continue in some form? Why are we concious in the first place (why do these little atoms and cells come together to make the humans that we are, if you get my meaning. Why are we ourselves)?Are you afraid?

Theists: I want to know what you think about this. I don't just want to hear "that's not possible, I KNOW that there's an afterlife because I believe in my god and have faith," I want to know how you feel about the supposition of cessation. Do you think that loss of consciousness is a possibility? Do you think that atheists are doing a disservice (causing damage, or whatever) by teaching their children that death is the end? Are you afraid?

As a theist I do envy them to think of death as the end of everything . It is a great relief .For the theist death means " time is out " ; you cannot repent anymore ; it is a new beginning for a new life .
From my own experince I found out that there are many meanings and purposes to our life . In this light I cannot say that an atheist cannot have his / her own meaning , purpose or morality . The religious meaning is the " Ultimate one " you can reach in your life ; it gives you additional or higher motives but is not everything .
On the personal level it gave me extreme peace and pleasure I couldn't reach with anything else .

On the other hand , I think there is an atheist within every theist .There come many moments in our life when we behave , think , and response as an atheist . Life is a struggle ; this struggle is part of the meaning itself .It is not human to stick to one way in each moment of your conscious life .
02-10-2010, 08:28 AM
Katy North

Quote:

From my own experince I found out that there are many meanings and purposes to our life . In this light I cannot say that an atheist cannot have his / her own meaning , purpose or morality . The religious meaning is the " Ultimate one " you can reach in your life ; it gives you additional or higher motives but is not everything .
On the personal level it gave me extreme peace and pleasure I couldn't reach with anything else.

People like you inspire others to be more supporting of everyone's beliefs. Thank you!

:grouphug:
02-10-2010, 03:38 PM
Nietzsche

I believe there is nothing after personally. I HOPE there is no after life. In Christian terms, the idea of heaven and hell sound utterly ridiculous. In hell, you suffer. In heaven, basically you serve a god for eternity. Yeah, it's described as a pretty place, no suffering, and luxury... but everything in there is described to honoring God and Christ. (Revelation 4:8-11) ;

There is no fear, sadness, anger, or any of the "dark" emotions that complete our humanity. (Revelation 21:4)

The bible says we should "long for heaven" , or in other words, wish to die. (Phil. 3:14; 2 Tim. 4:8).

Everyone will end up in the same white robes, and so forth. (Dan. 12:3; Matt. 13:43; Rev. 3:4; 6:11) I'd say everyone would be the same, but God plays favorites in heaven. (Matt. 6:19-25; 25:20-21; Luke 19:17-19; 1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:9,10). Moreso, certain people will be given crowns. the crown of life (James 1:12; Rev. 2:10), the incorruptible crown (1 Cor. 9:24, 25), crown of rejoicing (1 Thes. 2:19; Phil. 4:1), crown of glory (1 Pet. 5:1-4), and crown of righteousness (2 Tim. 4:6-8).

Sounds like a place that's all fine and dandy, but it's all happiness. You can't even FEEL sadness or anything. The very dark side of the mind that gives us our complete humanity is gone. It's a contradiction to the will to life (suffering is needed to promote survival, hunger, for instance). And this will never stop. The same robotic worshiping christ, and feasting for eternity.

I don't mean this so much as an attack on Christianity, but the idea of heaven does not sound appealing at all. I
02-10-2010, 04:27 PM
The Comedian

Been thinkin' more about this, and the more I do, the more I come back to the subject line of the post: "It is difficult come to terms with. . .". How true. Paulclem in several of his posts has expressed this difficulty. And I think I may have been too quick and dismissive in my initial post on the topic.

I think whether we are atheiest or theists, we all seek shelter from the prospect that there is nothing, that we will be nothing. Of course, I will argue strongly that just because "nothingness" is scary, doesn't mean it's the truth. I think that many of us (myself included) are too quick to equate bad news with the truth.

Sometimes the prospect of nothingness makes me want to cry like a little girl. I want to cry because, when faced with the horrible prospect of nothing, I become filled with regret: I wish that I had better spent my brief time here better (not more indulgently, but with a mind of poignancy and an eye for simple beauties). It makes me want to say "sorry" to a hundred people. Maybe this is the origin of atonement and the Jewish high holiday of Yom Kippur. And even the true presence of nothingness does not kill meaning and purpose: meaning and purpose become isolated moments, bursts, hugs & kisses -- not interconnected chains.

But as others have expressed here, such as NikoliI: just because the prospect nothingness appears to us doesn't make it real. Our perception of "nothingness" could simply be, in reality, a transition: into light, a cockroach, a bit of stardust, a ghost, or something else entirely for which we have no word and no wisdom to describe.

Okay, I'll sign off on this speculative rant.
02-11-2010, 07:22 AM
Babbalanja

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

I've always been fascinated by the atheist's concept of death. The atheistic belief is that when you die, that's it. It is the end of you, the end of your person, end of story. This is a difficult idea to cozy up to. Personally, I think that it takes a lot of courage.

But the courageous part is living. Without the certainty of a prescribed moral code and the threat of punishment after death, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to act? The nothingness isn't just after death, it's throughout our lives. It's no wonder some people can't accept it.

Quote:

Atheists: How do you come to terms with death? The actual idea that you will end? What do you think it'll be like, to not exist (that's a weird question, but go with it)? Do you have any hope that your consciousness will continue in some form? Why are we concious in the first place (why do these little atoms and cells come together to make the humans that we are, if you get my meaning. Why are we ourselves)?Are you afraid?

Death is part of life. Why should not being alive anymore feel any different than not being born yet?

Those why questions are the ones that can't be answered honestly. What answer would you conceivably accept?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

Without the idea of an afterlife, then what's the point of doing anything while we're alive?

I think of it completely differently. If there's no afterlife, that makes it all the more important to do meaningful things while we're alive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nietzsche

I HOPE there is no after life...the idea of heaven does not sound appealing at all.

I don't share that hope. I think it's understandable that the suffering of the innocent and the unfairness of life make people wish for justice in some afterlife. But just wishing for it doesn't make it plausible. And the empty promise of an eternal reward has caused incalculable misery on Earth.

Regards,

Istvan

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