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Just finished today - really enjoyed reading it :D
I also found the goat killing surprising - there was no real indication that Rachel had planned this, but I suppose the suddenness helps to emphasize her 'inhuman' nature.
Empathy does have some benefit - the humans were able to bond with one-another, and support those who were depressed. It also gave hope to people like Isidore...
I agree. Rachel is the character which fascinated me the most. I think Rachel is deliberately crafted to make us question what it is to be human, what empathy means, and whether the androids are 'machines' and therefore 'retireble' or whether killing androids is just killing. What does it mean to be alive? And why is it that some machines are cared for, and others are destroyed? In fact the more 'alive' a machine, the more likely to be destroyed it is. Electric toad didn't get retired, after all. There are great similarities between the themes explored in this book and the recent series of Battlestar Galactica which, if you haven't seen it, is an excellent series.Quote:
Originally Posted by mkhockenberry
I thought the exact same thing. On the face of it the androids' behaviour prompts a disgust response. However, when you think about it a little more, they behave no differently to human children. So retiring an android is like retiring a child, but I suppose the argument is that androids will never grow up to have empathy. Strange though, I find that a lot of humans don't develop great swathes of empathy either. But is what they do to the spider worse than what Rick does to them? Even with empathy for the androids he still kills them, and clearly the chase is torture to them. In a sense, I think that's worse. When Mercer says to him:Quote:
Originally Posted by mhockeberry
Perhaps what the androids lack isn't empathy, but it is instead this shared vision of futility offered by Mercerism? Perhaps androids don't 'violate their own identity' and this is the precondition on which they must die when trying to assert it. To free themselves from economic slavery. I found myself questioning, a number of times, whether the androids were displaying evidence of empathy. Like Luba Luft, both in terms of her career which, as a singer, must require empathy for the role she is performing, and in her final appearances in the art gallery (considering that appreciation of art requires a degree of empathy). I was curious why she selected that particular picture, particularly bearing in mind Rick's observations on it.Quote:
"I am here with you and always will be. Go and do your task, even though you know it's wrong...
You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go. It is the basic condition of life, to be required to violate your own identity. At some time every creature who lives must do so. It is the ultimate shadow, the defeat of creation; this is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life. Everywhere in the universe.
Then there's this part where Pris calls Isidore a chickenhead and Irmgard responds as follows:
which struck me as empathic. Irmgard considered how Pris might feel in Isidore's shoes and admonished her accordingly. Kind of like my mother used to do for me :DQuote:
Don't call him that, Pris," Irmgard said; she gave Isidore a look of compassion. "Think what he could call you."
But did she? Trying to manipulate someone with sex seems a rather human trait to me. And it raised an interesting point. Why was she trying to save the androids? Are we not told all along how androids don't care about other androids. Is this empathy? There's also the question of Rick's accountability. After all, he got her to help him in the first place by saying he wouldn't retire the androids. Only after she'd got to the hotel did he admit that he was going to anyway. And then she says this:Quote:
Originally Posted by mhockenberry
As regards the goat, I wonder this is just a continuation of Rachel's attempts to dissuade Rick from killing more androids. When they're talking in the car, she says this:Quote:
"You made a good deal when you made that deal,"..."We androids can't control our physical, sensual passions. You probably knew that; in my opinion you took advantage of me."
and earlier, Rick says to Iran:Quote:
"That goat," Rachel said. "You love the goat more than me. More than you love your wife, probably. First the goat, then your wife, then last of all-" She laughed merrily. "What can you do but laugh?"
Perhaps Rachel picked up on that, but to do so would require, I think, something approaching empathy. But I think that dividing line is drawn very thin between humans and androids in this book; I'm not convinced that the androids don't display it. Perhaps Rachel hoped that if she took away his 'compensation', the thing which enabled him to continue killing androids, then perhaps he would kill no more?Quote:
"Something went wrong, today; something about retiring them. It wouldn't have been possible for me to go on without getting an animal.
I think Rick has already shown that he is capable of having no remorse. Despite his empathy for the androids, he still retired them. And in the end he'd elevated himself to a kind of God-like status:Quote:
Originally Posted by mhockenberry
then a little later on:Quote:
"Mercer," he said, panting; he stopped, stood still. In front of him he distinguished a shadowy figure, motionless. "Wilbur Mercer! Is that you?" My god, he realised; it's my shadow.
and in his visions of Mercer (self-delusions, perhaps?) he is absolved of accountability for what he does. He kills because he must 'violate his own identity'; he is not responsible, it is the nature of the universe.Quote:
But if I'm Mercer, he thought, I can never die, not in ten thousand years. Mercer is immortal.
I agree Jazz. I think empathy is an emotional response which gives us a very great deal. It creates a belief in shared experience, and in so doing a mutual desire, or willingness, to protect. Empathy is the basis for some of our most valued, and yet least followed, maxims: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, and so on. But whilst empathy can create a shared, positive experience it also gives us the tools to cause great pain to others, to take from you what you value the most. Hence, perhaps, Rick and the goat?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz_
Just read 1/4 of the book; I am kind of enjoying it.
I love how silence and loneliness are described in the chapter Isidore is introduced: oozing from the walls and furniture.
Well, I got a problem. I had to return the book to the library and I thought for sure i would be able to take it out again, and as it turned out someone had a hold on it. :( Darn. I may have to drop from this read.
:( That isn't any fun. I would offer to send you my copy, but wouldn't you know it's a library book too. Maybe they can get a copy from another branch. They can go state wide here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
It dawned on me just a few moments ago that I should have tried another branch, or even if there was another copy on the shelves. Oh well, perhaps next saturday. I'm going to re-read Henry James' The Turn of the Screw since we have a hot discussion on that thread going.Quote:
Originally Posted by mkhockenberry
Good point, Jazz.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazz_
If the book continued on and androids became more and more human-like in their emotions, perhaps the empathy test would eventually need to evolve into an altruism test. An altruistic act, by definition, gains nothing for the actor. So, for example, upon witnessing a child being swept out into a river and starting to go under, very few adults would hesitate to jump in and try to save the drowning child, even if that adult could swim about as well as a brick, and even if the child was a stranger to the adult. An android, by contrast, wouldn’t bother jumping in the water, knowing it would just sink to the bottom anyway.
It is a very human thing to do. I still wonder about the motivations for trying to save the androids. Was she really trying to save them. I mean she tried to make a deal to get Rick to let them go, and I would consider the lengths she went to in order to get him to leave them extraordinary measures. The one thing she didn't do was really try to stop him when he was leaving. She tried to break him, but when that didn't work, she seemingly gave in. Then we find that she did retaliate in kind with killing his goat. I don't know if it is empathy, but it is certainly anger or vengeance. He took something dear to her, so she retaliated in kind. I think his animal was the most dear thing at that point since he seemed to have little more than a begrudging tolerance of his wife.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFifthElement
As for the why of trying to save the other, I don't really know. Perhaps it is just one of the mysteries of the story. I suppose part of it has to do with her position in the company. The business doesn't want them destroyed, which makes me wonder at the motivation there, but is it really Rachael that wants them saved? I think with all of the tampering with the androids to make them more and more lifelike, Rosen finally succeeded more than they ever thought. There was very little way to tell the difference between the Nexus 6 and humans. Rick wouldn't have pegged Rachael if it was not for a single question, and I hardly think that failing to be empathetic in a single situation, or having to analyze it first before deciding, is evidence of a lack of humanity.
Before starting to read the book, I also thought that it was an allusion to "sheep counting" but after reading the book, I believe the title is asking whether androids wish/long for electric sheep just like humans wish for live ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by dfloyd
I agree - I believe that the title asks "Do androids have dreams/long for things?" - helping to further the question of whether or not they are human-like...Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
I think the androids attitude towards living animals is pretty obvious - but do they act differently towards electric animals? Does Rachel enjoy having the electric owl in the beginning - or does she simply pretend to admire it for Rick's benefit? Perhaps they feel a connection with them? Though that might imply a sort of empathy...
I think the title also poses the question of just how similar androids are to humans. Do the androids feel and long for the same things as humans, but just a little differently? The newest model was so lifelike that Rick was only able to cause her to trip up on a single question for the empathy testing. That's pretty close in my book, and it could simply be a variance you would find in humanity. The others were "retired" without him having administered the test at all. Perhaps they would have been just as similar in reactions.
So, I find myself wondering, are the reactions real or simulated? If they're simulated, the doesn't it stand to reason that even if the reaction is started by their body a microsecond too late they still feel what it is their body is signaling? In my mind they, theoretically, should be able to feel all of the different reactions they simulate. We see they're capable of love, or at least caring, and they're certainly capable of lust and vengeance. Why would these be any more or less real than empathy?
I think they are simulated...Quote:
Originally Posted by mkhockenberry
But, then again, what is a real reaction? In a way, human reaction/behaviour is simulated as well since it is all learnt. I think this issue is brought into discussion with those humanbeings who are unable to show the expected reactions/empathy and they worry that some day they might kill someone thinking they are "retiring" an andy. Didn't Rick accept this explanation about Rachel's childhood initially?
What is your take on the toad?
I have no idea about the political inclinations of the author; so, I am also wondering if this has anything to do with the Communist witch hunts...
Rick did accept the explanation. I do wonder how they are justifying the testing as conclusive, but I guess they're not really doing that. I can't find the quote, but didn't they explain it away a bit by saying that they were likely humans that would be considered undesirable anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
I was a little surprised by the toad for a multitude of reasons. First, I don't really have any reference to say why a toad. That went entirely over my head. I kind of saw the toad as Rick's salvation in a way, and it just seemed such an odd choice of animals. Keeping with the idea of the toad as salvation, I also thought that is was a bit of a shock to have it be an electric animal. I just thought it oddly poetic in a way that the same thing that saved his sanity or sense of self was not real at all.Quote:
What is your take on the toad?
The toad was supposedly one of Mercer's favourite animals, so since Rick "became" Mercer, the toad seems like a reasonable choice in animal.
I think it also had something to do with the natural behaviour of toads - they bury themselves and survive in hostile environments (like the Earth in the novel) - highlighting the benefit of adaptability and giving Rick some hope for survival in such a cruel place...
I am still not that far along in the book, as I guess my internal wheels are spinning, but one thing that occurred to me is that John Isidore, is, to my mind, just as human, and as compromised within that humanity, as Rick is in terms of being our lead character. This is an alternate world where humanity has already been broken down into pieces, and living things are unnatural precisely because they are unnecessary, like the ostrich in that heated cage he is sulking over.
A reader over @ Amazon stated that Dick prefers what makes us really human as opposed to the androids being an illusionary approximation, and maybe this reader is right, but what I see so far is a world in which the robot may not want to kill its parents (which is the analogy today's robotic scientists thrust out to the public optimistically), but is a dead world because of mechanization.
I may read on a little more this evening. I have 500 things!