Racism

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Originally Posted by Brian Bean

I'm afraid you are reading too much into what is a very limited contact between blacks and whites in the UK. Despite enormous efforts by various governments since 1948 to integrate West Indians into the prevailing culture, the vast majority of whites do not have contact with them unless forced to by virtue of their work or some other situation that cannot be avoided. Go into any public house in central London at any time of day and you will see proportionately fewer blacks than their numbers would imply. After a dispute with the staff at my usual pub, I have recently been drinking at various other venues and, although most of them have been packed in the evenings, I have not seen one black person among the clientele. Whether the government like it or not, the great majority of white people will not agree with an act of parliament that was forced on them without their consent, often moving abroad or out of urban areas rather than suffer what many regard as an unacceptable situation. It's a known fact that many parents have actually moved house rather than send their children to schools in predominately black areas.

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Not only do I think you're wrong, a lot of what you're saying is offensive. Where is your proof on the statements you're making? Where is your proof that the "great majority of white people.........suffer what many regard as an unacceptable situation....." and where is it "a known fact that many parents have actually moved house.........." etc?

I don't know where you live, but I live in a relatively ordinary, middle-class area, and work in a good school, in what is seen as a rather posh area. I have black neighbours, and the school is multicultural. I have many friends from different ethnic backgrounds, and I can honestly say that I don't see parents trying to move to get out of the catchment area of our school. It's a popular choice, people are trying to get in. Your limited contact statement is a nonsense, it certainly is where I live and work.

You really should get out more & explore areas & pubs especially in & around London where you would come into contact with a whole range of ethnic minorities whose company I'm sure you would appreciate.
When in the UK on home leave, I frequent abodes in Hatfied, St Albans & Potters Bar outside of London where fellow topers of Polish, Nigerian & Chinese ethnicity indulge in boozing as a heroic sign of humanity and are quite prepared to mix.
In London proper I range between Irish pubs in Cricklewood, West Indian pubs in Harlesden, Jewish pubs in Golders Green, pubs at the south end of Edgeware Road frequented by Arabs dressed in mufti & pubs in Erith where the ethnic English still hold out.
Please don't take this unkindly, but how we tangentally got off the original thread again beggers belief. Like Falstaff down at the Eastcheap tavern; "It ascends me into the brain... makes it apprehensive, quick, forgetive, full of nimble, fiery and delectable shapes; which delivered o'er to the voice, the tongue, which is the birth, becomes excellent wit."

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Originally Posted by wessexgirl

Not only do I think you're wrong, a lot of what you're saying is offensive. Where is your proof on the statements you're making? Where is your proof that the "great majority of white people.........suffer what many regard as an unacceptable situation....." and where is it "a known fact that many parents have actually moved house.........." etc?

I don't know where you live, but I live in a relatively ordinary, middle-class area, and work in a good school, in what is seen as a rather posh area. I have black neighbours, and the school is multicultural. I have many friends from different ethnic backgrounds, and I can honestly say that I don't see parents trying to move to get out of the catchment area of our school. It's a popular choice, people are trying to get in. Your limited contact statement is a nonsense, it certainly is where I live and work.

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The fact remains that if you were to go to a cinema, concert hall, theatre or virtually any public place, with the possible exception of pop concerts and sports venues, you will not see blacks and whites together in any numbers. It is merely a fact that can be observed virtually anywhere in the UK unless of course you don't wish to observe it. I also live in an area where both races live and there is no visible interaction between them.
Education being the hot potato that it is in the UK, it features regularly in the media and there are plenty of reports to the effect that parents cannot find the schools of their choice, only the naive and disingenuous refuse to understand what that means. I personally know of one family where the woman and her daughter actually cried when the girl was accepted for the school of their choice.

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Originally Posted by JBI

You completely misunderstood the posts - the residential school system, which existed in the US as well, was a system set up to assimilate Aboriginals into white society - generally, it involved essentially kidnapping children, and sending them to religious schools, where their culture would be destroyed, language rights removed, and where the not so holy priests would have their way with them, as is want for priests.

Of course, the American system didn't last as long, and pretty much went out in the 20s, but the general damage had been done. Of course, the difference between the systems is, whereas Canada's aboriginal affairs is based on treaties and reservations, in the US aboriginals are treated as any minority, essentially, without any special treatment. In that sense then, the US is not "as racist" in that their policies aren't inadequate - they simply do not exist. The criticism in Canada essentially deals with Canada not doing enough, and not providing enough, whereas in the US, the government does nothing, and doesn't intend to do anything, as, quite simply, the vast majority of the Aboriginal communities have been all but wiped out, and the Native population base isn't very substantial in the country, in contrast to Canada.

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Perhaps I miss understood. Coming from New York City I really have no idea how we tried to assimilate Native Americans. My thoughts on Native American culture is that it's caught between two bad choices. Yes, they can assimilate into the big city centers, but that would essentially wipe out their way of life. If they segregate themselves into Indian nations, then they essentially condem themselves to a lack of opportunity and agrarian poverty.

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As for not having racist policies - perhaps in practice, but keep in mind, country policy involves Domestic and foreign affairs, on all levels of government, including the police, which is a government institution, and is the issue here. Canada doesn't have racist "Policies" in the legal sense, there just are racial issues that haven't been addressed properly, such as lack of funding for reserves, and poor education and living standards in certain areas, not unlike the US.

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We do have a similar problem in pockets. Yes, we try to emphasize local government, especially of school systems for the very reason that local communities have individual and specific values. But that does create less funding for education for lower class communities, many of which happen to be black. That is an issue. But I would contend that's not out of racism but a by product of striving for local governance. It is a problem and a struggle. New York City doesn't really have this issue because it spreads it's city costs across many neighborhoods, but New Jersey, for various demographic reasons does.

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In general, neither country is particularly racist, but it's a bit ridiculous to deny at least on some level racist programs (I am not allowed to get into contemporary politics, so I will leave it at that).

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I would agree that neither (I would assume for Canada) are not racist. But what you consider racist may be unfortunate struggles between various values.

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Originally Posted by MANICHAEAN

You really should get out more & explore areas & pubs especially in & around London where you would come into contact with a whole range of ethnic minorities whose company I'm sure you would appreciate.
When in the UK on home leave, I frequent abodes in Hatfied, St Albans & Potters Bar outside of London where fellow topers of Polish, Nigerian & Chinese ethnicity indulge in boozing as a heroic sign of humanity and are quite prepared to mix.
In London proper I range between Irish pubs in Cricklewood, West Indian pubs in Harlesden, Jewish pubs in Golders Green, pubs at the south end of Edgeware Road frequented by Arabs dressed in mufti & pubs in Erith where the ethnic English still hold out.
Please don't take this unkindly, but how we tangentally got off the original thread again beggers belief. Like Falstaff down at the Eastcheap tavern; "It ascends me into the brain... makes it apprehensive, quick, forgetive, full of nimble, fiery and delectable shapes; which delivered o'er to the voice, the tongue, which is the birth, becomes excellent wit."

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Thanks, I do not take it unkindly and agree that I might find the company of those you have mentioned congenial, but this is the trouble with liberal thinking, the fact that I find a certain situation agreeable, doesn't mean that others will. Attempts to cajole or coerce will be met with resistance from those whose opinion is different.

Agreed.
But I would not regard myself as particularly either liberal or conservative.
If I had stayed a Londoner & worked in London all my life, very likely I would have been influenced by the dramatic changes in racial diversity that have evolved. And age anyway brings with it a nostalga for "the old days".
Because I have spent the last 30 years working in: Nigeria, Ghana, Cameroons, the West Indies, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Qatar & Canada, I've seen it from the other side in many aspects of life, inclusive the racial issue.

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Originally Posted by Brian Bean

The fact remains that if you were to go to a cinema, concert hall, theatre or virtually any public place, with the possible exception of pop concerts and sports venues, you will not see blacks and whites together in any numbers. It is merely a fact that can be observed virtually anywhere in the UK unless of course you don't wish to observe it.

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Having lived in South London for fifty years, I have to say that's not a fact at all. It might be an observation you make if you wish to perceive things that way though.

You might say that mine is just anecdotal or personal evidence - and that's true - but so's yours.

A more objective indicator might be, for instance, the proportion of mixed marriages over the last forty-odd years in those areas with significant immigrant populations.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

Having lived in South London for fifty years, I have to say that's not a fact at all. It might be an observation you make if you wish to perceive things that way though.

You might say that mine is just anecdotal or personal evidence - and that's true - but so's yours.

A more objective indicator might be, for instance, the proportion of mixed marriages over the last forty-odd years in those areas with significant immigrant populations.

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Well you obviously live in a different part of South London to mine.
As for mixed " marriages," whilst it is true that I have observed the occasional black/white couple, they represent a miniscule number if one considers the great number of blacks who live in London and elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Brian Bean

Well you obviously live in a different part of South London to mine.
As for mixed " marriages," whilst it is true that I have observed the occasional black/white couple, they represent a miniscule number if one considers the great number of blacks who live in London and elsewhere.

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The Office Of National Statistics supplies figures indicating that 7.9% of the UK population is "from a non-White ethnic group" (2001).

It also records that in that year 2% of marriages were 'inter-ethnic'. In London the figures for ethnic population is 3.15%. In other words, two percent of people (four, if you count both parties in a marriage) are marrying outside their ethnic group, which given an ethnic population of three percent is a pretty significant proportion.

From the BBC

Figures published by the Office for National Statistics in 2001 revealed the number of mixed race people grew by more than 75% during the 1990s to around 415,000, 10% of the total ethnic minority population in the UK.

By 1997 already half of black men and a third of black women in relationships had a white partner according to a major study of ethnic minorities published by the Policy Studies Institute (PSI).

It also revealed that other inter-racial relationships were flourishing with a fifth of Asian men and 10% of Asian women opting for a white partner.

From Wikipedia:

In 2000, The Sunday Times reported that "Britain has the highest rate of interracial relationships in the world" and certainly the UK has the highest rate in the European Union. The 2001 census showed the population of England (a sub-section of the UK) to be 1.4% mixed-race..

By 2020 the mixed race population is expected to become Britain's largest ethnic minority group with the highest growth rate.

2005 birth records for the country state at least 3.5% of new born babies as mixed race.

Integration is a generational process, but it seems to be happening. It always has. When's the last time you walked down a London street and remarked on the huge number of unintegrated Huguenots?

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

The Office Of National Statistics supplies figures indicating that 7.9% of the UK population is "from a non-White ethnic group" (2001).

It also records that in that year 2% of marriages were 'inter-ethnic'. In London the figures for ethnic population is 3.15%. In other words, two percent of people (four, if you count both parties in a marriage) are marrying outside their ethnic group, which given an ethnic population of three percent is a pretty significant proportion.

From Wikipedia:

In 2000, The Sunday Times reported that "Britain has the highest rate of interracial relationships in the world" and certainly the UK has the highest rate in the European Union. The 2001 census showed the population of England (a sub-section of the UK) to be 1.4% mixed-race..

By 2020 the mixed race population is expected to become Britain's largest ethnic minority group with the highest growth rate.

2005 birth records for the country state at least 3.5% of new born babies as mixed race.

Integration is a generational process, but it seems to be happening. It always has. When's the last time you walked down a London street and remarked on the huge number of unintegrated Huguenots?

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As I have had cause to mention on these forums before, Disraeli's statement that there are lies,damned lies and statistics needs to be born in mind.
As for that old canard about the Huguenots, I suspect that the statistics would show that there were many more than originally came to these shores.
Either way, I prefer to believe what my own eyes tell me and will continue to do so.

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Originally Posted by Brian Bean

Either way, I prefer to believe what my own eyes tell me and will continue to do so.

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Do. But don't address the forum as if you expect the rest of us to believe what your eyes tell you.

Incidentally, my eyes tell me that your spelling's a bit suspect.

It's minuscule and borne.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

Do. But don't address the forum as if you expect the rest of us to believe what your eyes tell you.

Incidentally, my eyes tell me that your spelling's a bit suspect.

It's minuscule and borne.

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Members of the forum are quite at liberty to disagree with my observations as I am to disagree with theirs.
I am always pleased to receive corrections to errors of spelling, typing or grammatical inaccuracies.

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Originally Posted by wessexgirl

Not only do I think you're wrong, a lot of what you're saying is offensive. Where is your proof on the statements you're making? Where is your proof that the "great majority of white people.........suffer what many regard as an unacceptable situation....." and where is it "a known fact that many parents have actually moved house.........." etc?

I don't know where you live, but I live in a relatively ordinary, middle-class area, and work in a good school, in what is seen as a rather posh area. I have black neighbours, and the school is multicultural. I have many friends from different ethnic backgrounds, and I can honestly say that I don't see parents trying to move to get out of the catchment area of our school. It's a popular choice, people are trying to get in. Your limited contact statement is a nonsense, it certainly is where I live and work.

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Originally Posted by Brian Bean

The fact remains that if you were to go to a cinema, concert hall, theatre or virtually any public place, with the possible exception of pop concerts and sports venues, you will not see blacks and whites together in any numbers. It is merely a fact that can be observed virtually anywhere in the UK unless of course you don't wish to observe it. I also live in an area where both races live and there is no visible interaction between them.
Education being the hot potato that it is in the UK, it features regularly in the media and there are plenty of reports to the effect that parents cannot find the schools of their choice, only the naive and disingenuous refuse to understand what that means. I personally know of one family where the woman and her daughter actually cried when the girl was accepted for the school of their choice.

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Ok abit of a convaluted answer to these two posts but Ill get there in the end ( I hope). First off I think if it isn't obvious I mght as well say I am not white. Im not Black, in fact annoyingly most ethnic origins forms doesnt even have a tick box for me .. and Ive had a cupole of times where the makes forgot to add the any other mixed category and so I couldnt asnwer the question at all ( I did on the otherhand get to jump up and down and scream you are discriminating aginst me- mind the person who wrote those was a friend of mine so I did it as a joke to her, but also as a warning becasue she was involved in the student union adminstration and in MAnchetsre there are more than a few people in my position or rather of a similar brand of ethnicity). When I am not in manchetesr I live in a small village Almost completly white although there are afew obvious non white inhabitants - we all tend to stick out and every now and then a new family appears on the scene. ( Kind of a bit like eastenders really :rolleyes: ) But in general ecxcept for 2 or 3 occasions Ive been treated really well and really welccomed. There are the occcasional moments of schoking racisim that people say without even realisng it. like a 2 year old who wanted to know if I was a "flithy stinking paki" ( I should have answered "no darling Im a Pharoh"- instead I stumbled and tripped in shock). Then there were the school boys who yelled there ain't no black in the union jack so F*** off and don't come back ( this time I was better prepared I rolled up my sleve and yelled OI look here I am whiter then you you idiot! " at least this is the story I tell myslef about what I did the true story is around here somewhere and I cant really rember what I said or did.
But Like I was saying there is alot of unmeant I am not going to use the word racisim but how about hurtful ignorance. At work one day they came up with this oh so hilarious BOOM joke... which I didnt find at all amusing but its kind of hard to say you know what you should say that becasue its tupid and ignorat and biggoted and racisit so I bit my tounge and smiled. And recntly I had a guy in ( The same guy who called me fat christmas eve, who thought I would like to read a cbook on how evil muslims are... now really?!
Or once we were out to dinner and this complete stranger stops me and goes good for you you are allowed out and you wear colours, because I was weraing a bright pink hijab.

I do know that there were some kind of statistics about black children failing schools, but these have since been replaced with teh white WASP boys are the failing group in uk schools. Aisin kids coming up the highest followed by Arab- middleeastern children then black children then white girls then finally the boys. ( I could have got the middle bit wrong but I am sure on the aisian kids being the highest and the WASP boys being the lowest.

But even though some places are supposedly very multicutlural from my limited experiance they aren't really, take machester. leaving out the city cntre and move down. Rusholm or the curry mile is filled mostly with aisians and arabs, longsight is mostly black people. And the shops all reflect this. But move on down and fallowfield is like another country orr rather more like the white england. ( comparativley speaking of course there were alot of nonwhites in fallowfield I am sure but they arent as apparnat and obvious as in places like rusholme, hulme mossside or longsight ... and concidering mosside-hulme and longsight are 2 of the most deprived areas in england Brian bean may have a point.

Id like to make a load of political comments especially concidering reccent political events and a 40+ anniversery of a british political event. But I shall refrain I will say though I dnt think that institional racisim is as much a problem in the UK as it could be. I have a black friend in her mid fourties who I am niavie about it all. And I may be.
I do think though the over sensitivity to hints of racisim - Im atlking about the maddess of politcal correctiness) somtimes makes the issues worse. I mean the chalk board balck borad nosesne was just going too far you know? It makes the minority look stupid and oversenstive and its just blame I cant even think of a word for how idiotic it is. It also makes everyone feel a bit uncomfortable a is barraier against integraion its highlights the difference more than anything else.

on another personal note earlier this year I went to a County services Cultural services day I was a room of well over 200 people of all levels of staff of the County council cultural services divsion and I suddenly realised that in the whole room I was only obviously nonwhite member of staff. ( well there was a greek looking woman but I think greeks, italians and spanish are counted as white aren't they?) And I realised that the sudden introcutionof racial incednt report form after Id ben working a month or so , and the requests for me to provide my 'minority' experiance of working for the local government and the request that come in every so often when they dont want a 'typical' librarian for a job is because I am it. I am the token non white person.

on the whole I am glad I didnt know earlier, it is an uncomforatble bit of knowledge and kind of scary. Not that I suspect racisim or any other cause its just its wierd knowing that they had to introducce things becasue of me- akward like.

But like I was saying before stressing the difference is the wrong way to go about sorting out the differcens. You end up in a Dr. Money type bind, which not where you want to be. Not on excalyty racce realted but I have sat in rooms filled with muslim students fretting and seeking perscusion and discrimination everywhere they look. Now whetehr its all or at least partially just a case of the preciving it where it isnt ther is aside question, as is the fact taht it could be ajitators at work fanning the flames of fear. But the fact remains that if people feel they are being persecuted then they get nasty. and this where trouble begins. And talking about rasicim just brings it to peoples minds makes look for it everywhere precive it everywer and feel perscuted and act upon it.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Caddy your highlighting has confused me. As best I can respond, yes there is no doubt that some racism exists in some people's heart. (Let me distinguish racism, which is prejudice, with pre-judgements which are linked to rational associations.) Some people will hold racist views, and I imagine that's around the world and universal to a degree. I'm not saying that's extinguished. But the ability for those people to affect the lives of those they hold those views against those they hate is small, and again I only speak for the US. We have all sorts of Equal Opportunity laws which enforce and investigate claims and push minorities up. For the most part those things are good, though i would like a day when we don't have to such efforts.

As to how to end this consciousness. Well, it was my contention that the Prof Gates and the Jesse Jacksons of the world actually promote race consciousness. The question has to be, why does this consciousness exist for black americans and not for asians or jews or Italians, or other ethnic groups. Perhaps given the war on terror, there may be a slight suspicion when it comes to muslims, I grant you, but they certainly aren't in a ghetto with lack of education and high crime rates. I believe the race consciousness will end when African-Americans break out of the problems that have plagued them and do not have the high crime rates, go on to high college graduation rates, and are prosperous. That is what every other ethnic group has done. Their claim that racism has held them back, while once true, just doesn't square with the facts of the last forty years. There is a sub-cultural phenomena (unmarried mothers, the valuing of sports over education, drug glorification, gangster values, etc.) going on. Bill Cosby, by the way, has been very eloquent on this issue. Thos like Gates who perpetuate this race conscious attitude is diverting the black community with excuses that diverts them from real change.

I leave you with the say quote i left earlier from Thomas Sowell. "If jews had waited for the end of anti-semitism to make it in America, they would still be waiting."

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So the last 40 years have been nothing but prosperity and moving on up for blacks, but at the same time they are plagued by poverty, unmarried mothers, valuing the wrong aspects of culture, low graduation rates, etc.? You try to square these contradiction away by pinning this on a sub-group within the larger community that makes up the black population of America, but at the same time use imprecise language that also makes it sound like you're speaking of the black community in general, not just a minority:

"I believe the race consciousness will end when African-Americans break out of the problems that have plagued them and do not have the high crime rates, go on to high college graduation rates, and are prosperous."

Racism exists. Institutional Racism exists. By institutional racism we don't just mean it exists in a few individuals in society, but it is a system of biases, prejudices, stereotypes, and assumptions that proliferates through our institutions, such institutions may include: our businesses, our banks, our schools, our literature, our stores, etc. If institutional racism didn't exist then there wouldn't be publishers who consistently white-wash characters on book covers by turning characters who are black into white people (see link). This is evidence that racism is inherently attached to many of our institutions, such as the fabled publishing industry. If institutional racism didn't exist this story about black kids being excluded from using the pool in the "white-only" club never would've happened. Racism in America goes far beyond a few nasty individuals.

Also, why do you assume race consciousness doesn't exist for Asians (Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese, Laos, etc. as there is no one Asian group), Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Mizrahi, Ethiopian), or other ethnic groups?

1. I agree with Chris (Admin) that the post-MLK civil rights leaders push identity politics, but this fact in and of itself does not mean that racism--to Drk's point, has vanished, and I think Gates' arrest points to this, and Philadelphia itself points to it.

I lived in the inner city proper for 8 yrs, and I witnessed episodes that destroyed my naive sense that integration was justice too long delayed. What I experienced scarred and hardened me, despite my educated conscience.

What I experience in this section 202 housing adds to this, minus the toll of violence, which is admittedly rare in this unit.

But there is a Foucaultan conflict--the seniors most active on the tenant council are overtly hostile to the disabled population--which, as I previously indicated, is just as bad, if not worse, than racial prejudice.

And I'm damned if I know how to square it, ultimately, for myself.

I doubt I'll last here another five years--because I push back against management, and they have increased the pressure on me, and what I've been through since winter,well.

I don't know where I will wind up, but I am very jaded about what Ellison calls *social equality*, because there are so many differences, and stereotypes.