April / Novel of Manners Reading: The Awakening by Kate Chopin

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I haven't read this book in a long time (and I'm not reading it now), since undergrad days and that's a while back. So it's not fresh in my mind. But that's how I felt too. What was so bad about her husband? What was so bad about her life? I don't think that Chopin's point was a woman trapped in a bad marriage. I think the point is that here is a person who's soul just wants to go beyond the common every day life. It's not so much a woman's lib story but a story of a person (could have been a man, but the author chose to write from the point of view of a character from her gender) of a person who seeks a trascendental experience.

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"trascendental experience".

Is that about the same as Lawrence's concept of "transfiguration"?

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I cannot really blame her as far as her relations with her children back than if she were married she would not have had much of a choice or option to have kids weather she wanted them or not, having children were forced upon her. So speaking as someone who does not want kids, I could not imagine being stuck with them against my will.

For a woman who did not want to be a typical mother/housewife, her only real option would be to never be in a relationship with anyone, but to be a "spinster"

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I understand that, but now she has the children, so what can she do but accept them, love them; they are her flesh and blood. She does not seem to have much maternal love for them; not a truely deep connection. I don't know what to say. I am not sure I buy this book entirely; or the fact, she could just leave children behind her so easily. I don't know why she is taking up with the other young man, she knows she does not love either. Maybe, the children were mostly raised back then, by the nanny, and so women did not find it that hard to disregard them and find their own independence. It just seems that in books like "Anna Karenina", Anna did suffer over the separation from her young son and here Edna seems removed from her children, almost like they are nieces and nephews; not her own children. I feel somewhat sorry for the children, although they seem to love the grandmother and have bonded with her; at least, that is some consolation.

You cannot force someone to be maternal if such is simply not in thier nature to be and from the begining Edna is just not a maternal person. I can understand that, now that she has the children pehraps she has some resposneblity to them, but you cannot exepct someone to just will themselves to be a maternal person, and it is not really her fault having the kids if she did not "choose" to have them as that really was not an option.

I feel that her feelings were genuine for Robert and she truly did love him and would have been with him if it were possible for her to do so.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

You cannot force someone to be maternal if such is simply not in thier nature to be and from the begining Edna is just not a maternal person. I can understand that, now that she has the children pehraps she has some resposneblity to them, but you cannot exepct someone to just will themselves to be a maternal person, and it is not really her fault having the kids if she did not "choose" to have them as that really was not an option.

I feel that her feelings were genuine for Robert and she truly did love him and would have been with him if it were possible for her to do so.

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I can agree that it may not have been planned to have the children, but it did go with the territory of marriage in those days. I find it hard to believe she carried two children and didn't once have a spark on maternal instinct and feel some love for them. The thing is, what makes you think, if she left to live with Robert or even was able to marry him, she would not again conceive and have another child or even more children; then what? She certainly did not seem responsible, when it came to the children she did have. Maybe, she wasn't the maternal type and didn't want to ever have children, then in that case she would have been better off staying unmarried and accepting being a spinster like M. Reiz; such as Lily in "To the Lighthouse".

Being a Spinster back then was not always very easy or favorable and it seemed at the begining of the story Edna did not have the strong personality to do that, and well even toward the end it seemed she did not have it within her to take that path.

But she herself in the story reflects that she never really married her husband for love, (few women did than, few were acutally able to do so) and that could have an effect on her relationship with the children. Having children with a person you acutally do love, would be a very different thing than having children with a person you did not love.

We cannot really say what Edna felt about having children, only that in that time period we cannot very well condemn a woman if she had the burden of children forced upon her, simply becasue she did not wish to live a life completly alone.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I haven't read this book in a long time (and I'm not reading it now), since undergrad days and that's a while back. So it's not fresh in my mind. But that's how I felt too. What was so bad about her husband? What was so bad about her life? I don't think that Chopin's point was a woman trapped in a bad marriage. I think the point is that here is a person who's soul just wants to go beyond the common every day life. It's not so much a woman's lib story but a story of a person (could have been a man, but the author chose to write from the point of view of a character from her gender) of a person who seeks a trascendental experience.

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You could have everything in life and still be dissatisfied. Her husband isn't a bad person, he just doesn't seem to understand her - like when he comes in the middle of the night, wakes her up to tell her their son has fever - she checks, he doesn't have fever and when she comes back to the bedroom she finds her husband snoring away and she breaks down on the balcony and cries, but has no idea why. I thought that was a fantastic scene. It speaks volumes, he comes across - not bad - but inconsiderate.

I agree that it's not so much a 'woman's lib' story, could have been a man, but then we'd miss the point - conventions and rules of society, how men and women behave differently - and were expected to do so, how men can get away with certain things that women can't. A man in this situation and in that time and in those circumstances would not feel as trapped as Edna does. Someone compared this to Anna Karenina, an excellent comparison in this sense but Anna Karenina was slightly more 'melodramatic' - and if that word offends we'll go for 'sentimental' than this, Chopin's novel is much harder and 'real' about life.

I think she lacks meaning and purpose in her life, being a wife and mother isn't enough; in this respect she might be said to be a little like Nora in Ibsen's play (Doll's House), you must be a human being and a woman (or a man) before you can fulfill these social roles. If she had meaning in her life or was made to feel she had worth than I think 'common everyday life' as you say would have been enough for.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I do not think it ever says how old the children are, but I think they are suppose to be older than infants. In my mind I saw them as being a between maybe 4-6 years old, but it does not really say so that is just the impression I had.

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It does, in chapter one: 'Pontellier's two children were there sturdy little fellows of four and five'. I haven't finished the novel so I don't know the time span but at the start they are four and five. Good guess by the way!

Oh I totally missed or forgot when it stated their ages

This is one of those books that I love. While I've not been posting this pat month, I have been reading The Awakening again. I'm always struck by how much I can relate to Edna while at the same time never really being able to grasp her motivations.

Edna's character seeks an immersion in herself. Her wants and desires drive her with litle care to those around her. It is said on more than one occasion that she is not the type of mother to her children that she should be, but there is little in her mothering that others can find fault with. To me it seems as if she goes through the motions of life ensuring that no one may find fault in her behavior, but as the tale progresses she has less and less care for doing so. I remember in school that it was presented as the story of a woman finding herself, but as I'm grown with children of my own I see it a bit differently.

The Edna at the end of the book who drowns herself is the same woman at the beginning of the book who was described by herhusband as "not a mother-woman" and failing in her duty to their children. It seems to me that under the influence of Mme Reisz she sheds the facade that otherwise made her acceptable in society. In contrast to Edna's self centerdness (I don't have a better word) you have Madame Ratingnolle who is the epitome of the ideal mother for that time. She devoted everything to her children, and they were her entire being. I don't see Edna's change as growing as an individual, and I see it more as her shunning of the society whose constraints she deplored.

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Originally Posted by mkhockenberry

This is one of those books that I love. While I've not been posting this pat month, I have been reading The Awakening again. I'm always struck by how much I can relate to Edna while at the same time never really being able to grasp her motivations.

Edna's character seeks an immersion in herself. Her wants and desires drive her with litle care to those around her. It is said on more than one occasion that she is not the type of mother to her children that she should be, but there is little in her mothering that others can find fault with. To me it seems as if she goes through the motions of life ensuring that no one may find fault in her behavior, but as the tale progresses she has less and less care for doing so. I remember in school that it was presented as the story of a woman finding herself, but as I'm grown with children of my own I see it a bit differently.

The Edna at the end of the book who drowns herself is the same woman at the beginning of the book who was described by herhusband as "not a mother-woman" and failing in her duty to their children. It seems to me that under the influence of Mme Reisz she sheds the facade that otherwise made her acceptable in society. In contrast to Edna's self centerdness (I don't have a better word) you have Madame Ratingnolle who is the epitome of the ideal mother for that time. She devoted everything to her children, and they were her entire being. I don't see Edna's change as growing as an individual, and I see it more as her shunning of the society whose constraints she deplored.

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mkhockenberry, quite interesting; I like your take on this story. I think re-reading a story, one gets such a new persective; glad you did so; I enjoyed reading your well thought-out post. Interesting points you made here.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I can agree that it may not have been planned to have the children, but it did go with the territory of marriage in those days. I find it hard to believe she carried two children and didn't once have a spark on maternal instinct and feel some love for them. The thing is, what makes you think, if she left to live with Robert or even was able to marry him, she would not again conceive and have another child or even more children; then what? She certainly did not seem responsible, when it came to the children she did have. Maybe, she wasn't the maternal type and didn't want to ever have children, then in that case she would have been better off staying unmarried and accepting being a spinster like M. Reiz; such as Lily in "To the Lighthouse".

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But isn't the point of the story that she was following societies conventions? She was suppossed to get married and have kids. The idea was probably so ingrained Edna never even considered another option.

I think she felt love for her kids, she went to see them that one time and I don't have the quote with me but it indicated there were some feelings there. But I agree - Edna had no maternal instinct.

Have we talked about the conversation between Robert and Madame Ratingnolle? Where Madam Rat. cautions Robert?

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Originally Posted by papayahed

But isn't the point of the story that she was following societies conventions?

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papayahed, Yes, I do agree and think that is true and what the author is trying to convey. But I think there are many novels, especially in the earlier part of this century when so many women authors made this point with their novels; I refer to Jane Austen as one. So my feeling on this novel is that she takes it a step further with this sexual awakening in Edith.

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She was suppossed to get married and have kids. The idea was probably so ingrained Edna never even considered another option.

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Right, that is true, also. I don't think she had much forethought, as to any other options for her life, at the time she married. She just went along passively, with what was expected of her. I think, for one, Edith was a very passive type person and more layed-back. In this way, she remained weak and not able to actually break out of the mold in which she was cast into; the ending demonstrates that fact and also what option would she realistically have at that point anyway?

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I think she felt love for her kids, she went to see them that one time and I don't have the quote with me but it indicated there were some feelings there. But I agree - Edna had no maternal instinct.

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Yes, that did seem to indicate some bit of genuine love; but as far, as actually caring for them in a 'maternal maner', I didn't see that she ever did so. The visit to the farm was a idylistic I just wonder about that in this book as to it's reality and as to whether Edna was truly acting out things in a normal manner of thinking in regard to her children at the end. You know, they say when you take your own life either of two things: one - it's "a permanent solution to a temporary problem"; two - you hurt the people you leave behind the worse. I see this as both and also something going back pyschologically to Edna's childhood and the very prominent dream she once had.

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Have we talked about the conversation between Robert and Madame Ratingnolle? Where Madam Rat. cautions Robert?

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Not sure but would love to talk about that part. That's a good point to bring up since I do recall her cautioning Robert.

Then again, if you think about it, back then how many women truly would have been "maternal" to thier children? The concepts of motherhood than are quite different than what we think of it today. Women particuarly of an upper-middle class background do not often tend to acutally do a lot of mothering themselves.

Though Madame Ratingnolle is portrayed in the story as the ideal becasue she fits in with the conventions of soceity. Realisticly she probably would have haid a maid that did most of the acutal caretaking of the child.

Can anyone really picture a victorian woman changing diapers?

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Then again, if you think about it, back then how many women truly would have been "maternal" to thier children? The concepts of motherhood than are quite different than what we think of it today. Women particuarly of an upper-middle class background do not often tend to acutally do a lot of mothering themselves.

Though Madame Ratingnolle is portrayed in the story as the ideal becasue she fits in with the conventions of soceity. Realisticly she probably would have haid a maid that did most of the acutal caretaking of the child.

Can anyone really picture a victorian woman changing diapers?

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I agree with that. I was thinking the same thing about them actually doing the chores connected to mothering, such as changing a diaper; these would be things that bond a woman to their baby/child. It is true that in Victorian upper class society women would just hand the kid over to the nanny or the nurse. I was unclear as to just how upper crust Edna and her husband were but I suppose they are up there. I did think it mentioned chores that Madame Ratingnolle did that seemed to create a closer more motherly bond to her children, such as darning socks, etc. I will revisit those lines and see if I can quote anything specifically.

I had a feeling that Edna and her social class were fairly well up there, pehraps they were not among the high elite, but were still well off, and above what would have been precieived as the "working class." It did mention that Edna had servents in her household. There was also the part in which Edna's husband expressed anxiety about what people would think of his finincial state when Edna bought the little house for herself. He had to make it appear as if thier main house was being renovated so no one thought that he was starting to have finicial difficulties.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I had a feeling that Edna and her social class were fairly well up there, pehraps they were not among the high elite, but were still well off, and above what would have been precieived as the "working class." It did mention that Edna had servents in her household. There was also the part in which Edna's husband expressed anxiety about what people would think of his finincial state when Edna bought the little house for herself. He had to make it appear as if thier main house was being renovated so no one thought that he was starting to have finicial difficulties.

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Yes, I do think you are observations and feeling about it are correct. I did recall the husband saying that. Now who paid for the house Edna moves into? I was a bit confused on that point. Also, who pays for that farewell dinner that Edna gives before she vacates the big house, her main residence? I could not quite fathom where that move was to lead her, when the children and husband did return home permanently. I also could not understand, why she was carrying on secretly with the one young man, when within herself and her thoughts she had such deep feelings for Robert. That part did not quite make sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, I do think you are observations and feeling about it are correct. I did recall the husband saying that. Now who paid for the house Edna moves into? I was a bit confused on that point. Also, who pays for that farewell dinner that Edna gives before she vacates the big house, her main residence?

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I think Edna had a little of her own money but I could be making that up.

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I could not quite fathom where that move was to lead her, when the children and husband did return home permanently. I also could not understand, why she was carrying on secretly with the one young man, when within herself and her thoughts she had such deep feelings for Robert. That part did not quite make sense to me.

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I think part of it might have been that Edna found acceptance around Arobin. Arobin knew exactly what was going on and went with the flow in a manner of speaking. Plus Arobin was a fun guuy - he took her to parties, to the track, etc.