All the King's Men Group Discussion

Yeah, trying to find the part where Willie asks him to work for him. I think there was something there but I can not remember... hold on ;)

OK, I can not find the exact spot, but might it be the fact that Jack reported "the truth" in his column in the Chronicle? And that Willie heard one way or an other that Jack got fired or fired himself because he did not want to write in favour of MacMurfee? For Willie that could be enough of a reason to hire Jack and see where it went?! I mean, Jack did grow into his job - it wasn't at all defined... Though he did start of with quite a salary, $300 or such? Do not remember exactly...

Yes I remember that Willie apporached Jack when he found out that Jack had lost his job. That could have been enough for someone like Willie to take him on. The fact that Jack did take a stance and did not just go along with what he was told.

I cannot recall how much he made, but I do remember in the begining Willie did not have an offical posistion for him. I recall there was some remark Willie made about paying Jack and just figuring out something for him to do.

Ok, I did find the right part, in my book it's page 108 - the end of chapter 2. It's indeed Willie who asks for Jack and who mentions having heard that he got fired (to which Jack replies he quit). It's indeed $300 he offers, and Jack mentioning to Willie that is quite a lot of money, as "This Governorship doesn't pay but five thousand". And as for the job

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jack asks what he's supposed to do, to which Willie answers

"Hell, I don't know," he said "Something will turn up"

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So that's not a real answer, but it was probably a combination of Jack having known Willie from before he was a Governor and followed him a bit in his uprising, always writing straight columns in the newspaper... Something like that. :)

And well, somewhere in the beginning of the book Jack also states that reasons are often made up afterwards, while at the moment things just happen ;) And looking back at stuff, other reasons might turn up. It would be nice to hear his ideas on his employment, but I do not think that is gonna happen :lol:

Reasons do not seem to matter very much within the book. They are shoved aside. Just like with Sadie and Anne, there is seen no development on how either of them got involved with Willie or why, it just springs up out of nowhere.

There is really no indication that either of them have become involved with Willie, well other than Anne had lunch with Willie once which she tells Jack about. But they both just happen out of the blue for the reader.

Yes, but isn't that what often happens in real life? I mean, do we ever find out all that is behind it? After all, it's written from Jack's perspective and he never tried or never did do find out.

From Sadie it is being said however, that she is used to get what she wants and knows how to get it. Jack really makes a point to show she'll always be OK, no matter what - he won't have to look after her as she can perfectly take care of herself. And somehow I read, maybe between the lines, that she does so partly by getting involved with mighty men. But that might just be my imagination, as I also thought Anne might be with Willie to convince him to choose Adam as director - until she confessed she really loved the Boss...
And even if they would have those reasons, it would still not explain why Willie gave into the adultery or how these relationships develop...

While I never really disliked Jack I think Adam was really the only "worthy" character within the book. What happend to Tom was tragic for Lucy but I did not really care when he died.

And when the whole thing went down with Adam and Willie I sort of rejoiced when I found out that Willie got shot, not nessciarly becasue I truly disliked Willie even but becasue after Adam got shot there was a moment when Jack thought that the boss did not get it, and I just felt like oh no, don't tell me Adam got killed for no reason. I was going to be so dissapointed if Adam got killed but Wille was left perfectly fine.

Do you guys think that Adam's death was symbolic?

He was the only half-decent, likeable character in the book but he had to get killed in such a way.

It could have been symbolic in a way. Though Warren does not strike me as a highly symbolic writer.

Based upon the notions of pre-destination, I would say that there was no other possible outcome for Adam. He was too "noble" to surivie in the world of Willie Stark.

Hmm... Adam never struck me as likeable. A dreamer and a nutty professor maybe, but not more or less likeable than the other characters. And I understand from his nature that he had to act the way he had, but to just take a strangers word about your sister sleeping with your boss and assuming it was all to get you into a better position. That is not very decent in my eyes. Killing Willie seems like some kind of blood-vengeance or family honour thing going on. He does not even confront Willie about it, he just shakes his hand and shoots!

I do not see the killing of Adam (which is in some way defensive: a bodyguard takes down the shooter) as a symbolic way to show that nobleness is not possible in Stark's world. I think that is much better betrayed by the fact that Stark does his best to keep the hospital "clean", even putting Adam in charge while he knows the guy hates his guts. He does not succeed though, and has to give the order to Duffy - something he never wanted as he wanted to be known for good deeds, he's quite passionate about his hospital.

Jack makes Adam's death interwined with Willie's death in a way that I do not really understand. He seems so convinced that he and Anne brought the two together and brought them to their final destination. I really think he's trying to make too much out of destiny, seeing connections that aren't there. Though one might say that Adam's values collided with Willie's values (or at least the way they used those values in their business) and it was destined that there would be firework...

But it is true that Jack brought them together. He was the connecting link between Willie and the Standons, he brought them into Willie's world, or Willie into thier world. It was learning of the corruption of the judge and her father which drove Anne to Willie and than it was Anne who pushed Jack into making Adam accept the posistion even as she knew that Adam would be devestated if he ever learned the truth about what she was doing.

Maybe Adam knew his sister well enough to know that it would be true, and he did confront her about it when he found out the news, and she could not deny it. I was glad the finally someone stood up to Anne and shattered her dillusion of herself instead of keep propeing her up on the pedestol as Jack alwyas does.

...and after nearly 100 pages, I am sort of flabbergasted. I'm reading the novel for a class I'm taking, and since the novel is always pegged as being political, I picked it up with some hesitation. I'm a political junkie, yes, but politics has always been something I've tried to keep out of my personal readings. The two can intermingle well, but I've read enough Zinn and Chomsky on the side to have my political cravings satisfied. I don't need novels preaching to me.

So far, Warren has completely shocked me with his lyrical style. Sometimes the prose comes off as a little dense, but not to the point where it is slowing me down by any means. There's so much complexity to both Jack and Willie already, that I am in no way surprised at the novel's thickness.

What are some of your thoughts on this novel? Have you read a work of literature that is classified as being overtly political, despite it consisting of much more deep and thought-provoking themes?

at least 30 years. I remember the general plot, but not all the nuances. For some reason(s) editors were hesitant to do any drastic editing to this book. I remember it as being overlong with some very boring parts. A good editing would have made it int0 a more readable book,

I've seen both movies and prefer the one with Broderick Crawford for which he won the Best Actor Oscar. The movie was much faster paced than the book. The movie with Sean Penn was not as good, although I admire Penn's acting generally, I watched the DVD because Tony Soprano was in it (I forget his acting non de plume). Much fatter and balder than he was in the Sopranos.