January / Thriller Reading: The New York Trilogy by Paul Auster

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

Ack! I have library issues and have to break off reading TNYT to read As I Lay Dying before it's due back. Will pick up in a few days, hopefully. Currently part way through Ghosts - I wondered about the stories he mentions: the murdered child, the skiing man who discovers his own father, the engineer who constructed the Brooklyn Bridge. Is there a point to these stories?

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Ghosts : the side stories/anecdotes

In City of Glass we read that in a good mystery story there is nothing wasted, no sentence, no word that is not significant... Since everything seen or said, even the slightest, most trivial thing, can bear a connection to the outcome of the story, nothing must be overlooked. Everything becomes essence ...

Unless I'm missing something the side anecdotes seem not to bear any importance to the main story itself. Perhaps what the author wants to say is that Ghosts and the 2 other novellas are not your usual, run-of-the mill detective stories?

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

I came out of my first reading of this book wanting to do exactly as you've mentioned! I'm still resolved to read Don Quixote all the way through ( I started but didn't finish!) and I have Walden to read and a Hawthorne collection as well.

I never understood Mulholland Drive! Please explain it to me Nick :D

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I need to finish Quijote too; I stopped reading after the first book, but I think I will start from the beginning because I don't remember much.

In the last third of the film, after the camera goes into the blue box, we see a beaten down Betty who is actually Diane. I believe the last third to be reality and the key to the film. Diane is the central character and there isn't a scene without her during the last third, which is not true for the rest of the film. The first two thirds seems to be a hopeful fantasy where Diane is talented and the world loves her, including her ex-lover. The Justin Theroux character who seduces Diane lover finds his wife an adulteress in Diane's dream and is tormented by executives (which Diane finds as pleasing justice).

I think the same thing is true for the Trilogy; not that it's a dream, but where the "real story begins" is the material used for the first two books. Daniel Quinn the detective is recasted as a detective writer who gets drawn into that world. The Stillman that beats him becomes both Stillman the younger and older. The contents Fanshawe's confusing red notebook becomes the the material for Stillman's language. Then there's Dark. There is a parallel between the final meeting of Blue and White and the final meeting with Fanshawe. I think theme, above all else, is what is relevant. I don't think the book defies interpretation, but comprehension is better felt than explained.

The effect, to me, is what Pound said about poetry, "... language charged with mean," these are characters charged with meaning and although there are numerous external allusions, on the second read we see that the books have morphed into self-reference. A very interesting book.

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Originally Posted by Thespian1975

On to Ghosts. The Theme of watching, identity and words arise again. Naming everyone after colours is a good touch.

It's not as good as City of Glass but very interesting.

Has anyone read Walden by Thoreau? Are there themes linking it to Ghosts?

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Ghosts vs. City of Glass

The plot of Ghosts is not as intricate as City of Glass and I found the story less chilling - perhaps because of the greater chance of a positive ending as far as the principal character Blue is concerned.

What differences do you find among Quinn, Blue and Fanshawe's boyhood friend?

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I think theme, above all else, is what is relevant. I don't think the book defies interpretation, but comprehension is better felt than explained.

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I completely agree with Nick. My own supplementary reading has not been of sources quoted within the novellas themselves, but of contemporary deconstruction of the book. Interpretations abound, but the themes of self and other/ search for and loss of identity seem to be a common thread.

But had I read nothing about it at all - which is how most of the public no doubt read it, after all - I still would have really liked this book.

Thespian, as for the linkage between "Ghosts" and Walden: as I said in my earlier post Auster himself has said of the story that "Ghosts" is dominated by "the spirit of Thoreau... Walden Pond in the heart of the city."

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

Fanshawe has returned!:D

I want to avoid giving too much away, but this is a book I will be reading again. I will put the book aside for now and read Poe, Thoreau, Whitman, Melville, the others mentioned and finish Don Quijote.

The Locked Room:
Does anybody else see a connection between the work of Fanshawe and Joyce, in terms of stylistic progression?

I will post the photos once I upload them.;)

Spoiler!!!

This reminds me of Mulholland Drive, I know it was published before, but I think the approach needed to interpret it is similar. The similarity between the red notebook and blue box is interesting.

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Yes, I want to do the same. When I finished the trilogy the first time I read it I started reading Thoreau, now I am starting with Withman (well, I wanted to read his poems since I read Cunningham's "Specimen Days", so this reading isn't only Auster inspired :D). Later I plan to move on Hawthorne and Poe, he talks about them in other of his books, too.

I wanted to watch MD for a long time, so this seems a good reason to do it. It will take me some time to do it since I am really busy now, but I'll see it and I'll tell you what I think, ok? :)

bouquin, I'll check your associations, too. Unfortunately, I don't have the time for reading Dostoevsky right now, but I can handle Gogol quite easily.

TheFifthElement, I know you mentioned the title of the Hawthorne's work they were talking about in "Ghosts", but I can't find the post now. Can you tell me once again, please :blush: I really want to read it, it's a good excuse to read some more Hawthorne :D

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Originally Posted by bouquin

Unless I'm missing something the side anecdotes seem not to bear any importance to the main story itself. Perhaps what the author wants to say is that Ghosts and the 2 other novellas are not your usual, run-of-the mill detective stories?

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Actually I think they have. They don't contribute to the plot line directly, but they seem kind of important for the meaning of the whole thing. I don't know if you remember, but when the disguised as a bagger Blue is having conversation with Black, they exchange a few words about the authors and finally they say that the writters are the ghosts that hunt them. I think this isn't relevant only when it comes to the authors and these stories are the stories of the New York ghosts.

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Originally Posted by Paige19

Thespian, as for the linkage between "Ghosts" and Walden: as I said in my earlier post Auster himself has said of the story that "Ghosts" is dominated by "the spirit of Thoreau... Walden Pond in the heart of the city."

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I agree with this. I don't think there are some direct references, but the atmosphere is similar. Still Black is living in some voluntary isolation, too. I think in some way Blue is the one who writes Black's Walden.

Alexei, I agree with you. It is not a matter of literary references, but of enforced isolation from society that creates the Walden parallel. How clever of Auster to portray this process of ever-increasing detachment as happening within the most "civilized" of settings - a huge city.

But I think it is Black who forces Blue into this situation. I think the story is about Blue's "Walden" experience, an experience engineered by Black.

I'm afraid my reading has slowed down. Not because of the book, the book is very engaing. I will have to catch up and then look through these posts.

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Originally Posted by Paige19

Alexei, I agree with you. It is not a matter of literary references, but of enforced isolation from society that creates the Walden parallel. How clever of Auster to portray this process of ever-increasing detachment as happening within the most "civilized" of settings - a huge city.

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Yes, this contrast of environment is definitely good idea. But I wonder if this doesn't somehow change the end of the experience. Being a isolated in the city and in the woods makes the whole thing totally different. Both times we have it's an act of free will, but while the guy living in the woods becomes a hermit of a kind (this means the isolation isn't an end itself, but a mean for getting to the end chosen), the isolation in the city, meaning amongst lots of other people makes it an end, it is isolation for the sake of it, or at least this is the most common case. On the other hand the Christianity has actually come up with such thing as city hermits, but it is a rather obscure medieval phenomenon and I doubt Auster consider it while writing the story.

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But I think it is Black who forces Blue into this situation. I think the story is about Blue's "Walden" experience, an experience engineered by Black.

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That's an interesting theory, actually a brilliant one :D I will consider it carefully, because "Walden" experience (I like the sound of that :D) being forced on someone seems a bit problematic to me :lol:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I'm afraid my reading has slowed down. Not because of the book, the book is very engaing. I will have to catch up and then look through these posts.

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Don't worry, Virgil, take your time. I am sure we are going to take as long as we can to discuss this one. It's like some abyss of interlinked hidden meanings. So there's plenty of time to catch up later. From now on I will signify if there is some spoilers in my posts. I am sorry if you've stumbled on some, I usually forget to make some sign about spoilers ahead.

The narrator/author publishes a The Locked room, along with the other two stories, which includes infidelity and him keeping Fanshawe's letter a secret; how does his wife react?!

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Originally Posted by bouquet

What differences do you find among Quinn, Blue and Fanshawe's boyhood friend?

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I'll have to think about that ...

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Originally Posted by Paige19

But had I read nothing about it at all - which is how most of the public no doubt read it, after all - I still would have really liked this book.

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I would have too. Having to read the synopsis of each nominee is the only thing I dislike about voting. I would like to read a book with out knowing anything about it, but I'm too picky to allow it.

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Originally Posted by Alexei

Yes, I want to do the same. When I finished the trilogy the first time I read it I started reading Thoreau, now I am starting with Withman (well, I wanted to read his poems since I read Cunningham's "Specimen Days", so this reading isn't only Auster inspired :D). Later I plan to move on Hawthorne and Poe, he talks about them in other of his books, too.

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Whitman has been on my shelf for some time and this will be the year I read him. I love the chamber pot.

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Originally Posted by Alexei

TheFifthElement, I know you mentioned the title of the Hawthorne's work they were talking about in "Ghosts", but I can't find the post now. Can you tell me once again, please :blush: I really want to read it, it's a good excuse to read some more Hawthorne :D

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I'm not sure if it's the work referenced in Ghosts, but Nathaniel Hawthorne's first novel was called Fanshawe aka the elusive character in The Locked Room. Interesting story about this on Wiki:

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Fanshawe is a novel written by American author Nathaniel Hawthorne. It was his first published work, which he published anonymously in 1828.

Fanshawe was based on Hawthorne's experiences as an undergraduate at Bowdoin College in the early 1820s. He had written successful short stories before, but this was his first attempt at creating a novel. Hawthorne published the romance himself, and it was largely unnoticed. After its commercial failure, he burned the unsold copies: "Later all the copies that could be obtained were destroyed. A dozen years after his death a copy was found and the tale reissued by James R. Osgood & co." (quote cf. N.E. Brown, Bibl. of Nathaniel Hawthorne, Boston and New York, 1905) The novel was so rare and Hawthorne was so secretive about his early attempt at a novel that after his death his wife Sophia insisted her husband had never written a novel with that title, despite being shown a copy.

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So, Hawthorne's wife was called Sophia!

Fanshawe is available on Lit-net here:http://www.online-literature.com/hawthorne/fanshawe/

I have managed to track down the story referenced in Ghosts (thank you Google!). Called Wakefield, and you can read it here: http://www.online-literature.com/hawthorne/156/

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Originally Posted by Paige19

Alexei, I agree with you. It is not a matter of literary references, but of enforced isolation from society that creates the Walden parallel. How clever of Auster to portray this process of ever-increasing detachment as happening within the most "civilized" of settings - a huge city.

But I think it is Black who forces Blue into this situation. I think the story is about Blue's "Walden" experience, an experience engineered by Black.

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Yes, I agree with that.

The Locked-Room genre is a sub-genre of Mystery and we all know who wrote one of the most well known ones ... Poe.

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Originally Posted by TheFifthElement

I
Fanshawe is available on Lit-net here:http://www.online-literature.com/hawthorne/fanshawe/

I have managed to track down the story referenced in Ghosts (thank you Google!). Called Wakefield, and you can read it here: http://www.online-literature.com/hawthorne/156/

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The New York Trilogy is a deceptive little bugger. There are clearly 308 pages between the covers and yet it goes on: William Wilson, Don Quijote, Walden and now Wakefield and Fanshawe.:p

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Originally Posted by Paige19

Alexei, I agree with you. It is not a matter of literary references, but of enforced isolation from society that creates the Walden parallel. How clever of Auster to portray this process of ever-increasing detachment as happening within the most "civilized" of settings - a huge city.

But I think it is Black who forces Blue into this situation. I think the story is about Blue's "Walden" experience, an experience engineered by Black.

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I agree with your observation on the detachment-big city paradox. As it says on chapter 1 of City of Glass:
New York was an inexhaustible space, a labyrinth of endless steps, and no matter how far he walked, no matter how well he came to know its neighborhoods and streets, it always left him with the feeling of being lost. Lost, not only in the city, but within himself as well. Each time he took a walk, he felt as though he were leaving himself behind ... By wandering aimlessly, all places became equal and it no longer mattered where he was. On his best walks, he was able to feel that he was nowhere... New York was the nowhere he had built around himself ...

I also tend to concur with the idea that it is Black who sets-up Blue to spy on him, that Black is conducting some sort of experiment with Blue as his subject.

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Originally Posted by bouquin

I agree with your observation on the detachment-big city paradox. As it says on chapter 1 of City of Glass:
New York was an inexhaustible space, a labyrinth of endless steps, and no matter how far he walked, no matter how well he came to know its neighborhoods and streets, it always left him with the feeling of being lost. Lost, not only in the city, but within himself as well. Each time he took a walk, he felt as though he were leaving himself behind ... By wandering aimlessly, all places became equal and it no longer mattered where he was. On his best walks, he was able to feel that he was nowhere... New York was the nowhere he had built around himself ...

I also tend to concur with the idea that it is Black who sets-up Blue to spy on him, that Black is conducting some sort of experiment with Blue as his subject.

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Black is definitely White. Auster gives us a clue when Black orders a black&white. It says in there somewhere that Black hires Blue so that he, Black, can have purpose.

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

The narrator/author publishes a The Locked room, along with the other two stories, which includes infidelity and him keeping Fanshawe's letter a secret; how does his wife react?!

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That's quite interesting indeed. But this isn't the only strange thing we've seen when it comes to the problem with authorship. These mysteries turned out rather difficult to solve and I start to think they are supposed to be against all logic. If this is the case I think they are more or less irrelevant to the more important problems posited by the stories.

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Whitman has been on my shelf for some time and this will be the year I read him. I love the chamber pot.

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Hahah, Yes, it sure caught my attention. I bought "Leaves of Grass" on Saturday and I've started reading it, but I have to admit I've just passed the introduction :blush:

TheFifthElement, thank you for the info and for the links. It's very nice of you digging all this information. I owe you a favour ;) I think I will postpone the reading of "Fanshawe" for a while, bur I will try to read "Wakefield" till the end of the week. Same goes for "William Wilson". At least they are short, but this pile of additional reading gets bigger and bigger every day :D I don't think I can keep up :(

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

The New York Trilogy is a deceptive little bugger. There are clearly 308 pages between the covers and yet it goes on: William Wilson, Don Quijote, Walden and now Wakefield and Fanshawe.:p

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Tell me about it :D:p At least I've read Don Quixote. Still there are some additional reading in this direction too. I am trying to get to an essay on it written by José Ortega y Gasset for ages. I've heard his interpretation is quite interesting and more or less out of the box. Probably it's irrelevant for this discussion but at least it will bring me back to the atmosphere of the book. By the way, if we start thinking for Don Quixote in the way suggested by the fictional Auster, doesn't Don Quixote remind you of Hamlet? This whole madness and testing the others thing?

I finished The City of Glass last night and I'll have to go up the thread and look over comments. I really enjoyed it, but I'm not sure what to think of the ending. Those last two chapters seem to come from nowhere. Do they fit? I need to ponder this a little. :D