Is Lolita Porn?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blazeofglory

There are many factors. Society, culture, value are some of the factors that speak of your judgment and reckoning. We still know tribal communities wherein sex is not a taboo and sexual. And we have also societies wherein even disucssions of sex are tabooed. The Victorian age and now depicts a big gap in terms of sexual value.

From that standpoint the idea that Lolita is not porn is a flawed understanding of the nature of the thing. The relation, the dialogue, the manner in which the story unfolds corroborates the enough substantiation of sex in the book.

But the writer has phrased it with his pedantic and scholastic capacities to cover up the core idea of the book.

That makes you take everything from an aesthetic point of view. It is like something covering the ugly and disfigured face with a modern surgical appliance.

Take and unprejudiced idea and you will find the book full of lusty and perverted ideas and nothing else at the core in point of fact. But you will not do so for something grandiloquence of the writer has occupied your mind.

---

We are all still waiting for the quotations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petronius

If Lolita is completely symbolic, what do you think it symbolizes?

---

It is about aging and trying to recapture youth. Nabokov referred to Lolita elsewhere as "the Cup of Hebe".

Quote:

---

It is about aging and trying to recapture youth. Nabokov referred to Lolita elsewhere as "the Cup of Hebe".

---

Is it really entirely about that? It sounds more like something the author would be looking for rather than the narrator - a search continued in Ada. Humbert himself does not seem like an old person, which implies that for the most of it (or even entirely), the book is not about trying, but succeeding to recapture youth - about ageless youth, or rather the abandonment of concerns about one's age. So truly, Lolita is about human interactions without the pressure of social and moral constraints, which does not exclude sexuality as an integral part of the central theme.

But it does put an interesting question. How would the young percieve Lolita?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petronius

Is it really entirely about that? It sounds more like something the author would be looking for rather than the narrator - a search continued in Ada. Humbert himself does not seem like an old person, which implies that for the most of it (or even entirely), the book is not about trying, but succeeding to recapture youth - about ageless youth, or rather the abandonment of concerns about one's age. So truly, Lolita is about human interactions without the pressure of social and moral constraints, which does not exclude sexuality as an integral part of the central theme.

But it does put an interesting question. How would the young perceive Lolita?

---

Think of the beginning, where the author set up the story. It was about eternal, youthful love, but it was not about physical sexual activity.

Humbert was not old, but he was middle-aged. I don't recall whether a specific age was given, but I had the impression that he was in his late 40's at the beginning. That is certainly far from old age, but it is well out of youth.

I think that it might be more accurate to say that it is about regaining the freedom and lack of responsibility of youth. Of course, sexuality would not be excluded, but that was peripheral, and the novel is certainly not concerned in sexually stimulating readers.

Quote:

---

sexuality would not be excluded, but that was peripheral, and the novel is certainly not concerned in sexually stimulating readers.

---

That would depend on the reader...

Actually, if you refer to Humbert's childhood relation with Annabel, it suggested plenty of erotism - not necessarily passed to the reader, but present between them. Have you ever been in love at age 12? Eternal, youthful love? Drawn, tantalizing prelude, desire to explore, fantasies, expectations - unfortunately cut loose by the moral, the vulgar, and by fate.
Same thing with his meeting of Lolita. Humbert percieved the moment through a haze of erotism. Do we dismiss it as irrelevant, as secondary? It's a mater of choice. Sex it's not all about intercourse. It's circumstance, thoughts, senses.

Humbert tries to regain the freedom of youthful love? I'll agree with that. But can we say that youthful love is platonical?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petronius

That would depend on the reader...

Actually, if you refer to Humbert's childhood relation with Annabel, it suggested plenty of erotism - not necessarily passed to the reader, but present between them. Have you ever been in love at age 12? Eternal, youthful love? Drawn, tantalizing prelude, desire to explore, fantasies, expectations - unfortunately cut loose by the moral, the vulgar, and by fate.
Same thing with his meeting of Lolita. Humbert percieved the moment through a haze of erotism. Do we dismiss it as irrelevant, as secondary? It's a mater of choice. Sex it's not all about intercourse. It's circumstance, thoughts, senses.

Humbert tries to regain the freedom of youthful love? I'll agree with that. But can we say that youthful love is platonical?

---

I suppose that it's a matter of how one defines eroticism. I don't consider eroticism to be possible before puberty, so per-pubescent love is, by necessity, non-erotic. While Humbert engaged in eroticic behavior with Delores, that was not included in the book.

I didn't see any signs of eroticism in the relation between Annabel and Humbert. You can, if you like, but there was nothing explicit.

Quote:

---

I suppose that it's a matter of how one defines eroticism. I don't consider eroticism to be possible before puberty, so per-pubescent love is, by necessity, non-erotic.

---

Puberty starts at 9-10. Lolita was 12, while Annabel and Humbert were around the same age when their relationship unfolded.

Quote:

---

I didn't see any signs of eroticism in the relation between Annabel and Humbert. You can, if you like, but there was nothing explicit.

---

"All at once we were madly, clumsily, shamelessly, agonizingly in love with each other; hopelessly, I should add, because that frenzy of mutual possession might have been assuaged only by our actually imbibing and assimilating every particle of each other's soul and flesh; but there we were, unable even to mate as slum children would have so easily found an opportunity to do."

"we would sprawl all morning, in a petrified paroxysm of desire, and take advantage of every blessed quirk in space and time to touch each other"

"sometimes a chance rampart built by younger children granted us sufficient concealment to graze each other's salty lips; these incomplete contacts drove our healthy and inexperienced young bodies to such a state of exasperation that not even the cold blue water, under which we still clawed at each other, could bring relief."

"and there, in the violet shadow of some red rocks forming a kind of cave, [we] had a brief session of avid caresses, with somebody's lost pair of sunglasses for only witness. I was on my knees, and on the point of possessing my darling, when two bearded bathers, the old man of the sea and his brother, came out of the sea with exclamations of ribald encouragement"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PeterL

Humbert was not old, but he was middle-aged. I don't recall whether a specific age was given, but I had the impression that he was in his late 40's at the beginning. That is certainly far from old age, but it is well out of youth.

---

I think he starts out as being 36.

Anyway, it's all a matter of how offended you get/personal preference. Pour exemple, the music video for Girls on Film. Some people say it's pretty tame;others say it's gross.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petronius

Puberty starts at 9-10. Lolita was 12, while Annabel and Humbert were around the same age when their relationship unfolded.



"All at once we were madly, clumsily, shamelessly, agonizingly in love with each other; hopelessly, I should add, because that frenzy of mutual possession might have been assuaged only by our actually imbibing and assimilating every particle of each other's soul and flesh; but there we were, unable even to mate as slum children would have so easily found an opportunity to do."

"we would sprawl all morning, in a petrified paroxysm of desire, and take advantage of every blessed quirk in space and time to touch each other"

"sometimes a chance rampart built by younger children granted us sufficient concealment to graze each other's salty lips; these incomplete contacts drove our healthy and inexperienced young bodies to such a state of exasperation that not even the cold blue water, under which we still clawed at each other, could bring relief."

"and there, in the violet shadow of some red rocks forming a kind of cave, [we] had a brief session of avid caresses, with somebody's lost pair of sunglasses for only witness. I was on my knees, and on the point of possessing my darling, when two bearded bathers, the old man of the sea and his brother, came out of the sea with exclamations of ribald encouragement"

---

Humbert and Annabel were too young to copulate, so there was no clear erotic activity, and it is clear from the quotes that you provided that there was no actual sexual activity.

annabel dies of typhus after sexual/erotic episode on the beach with humbert.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PeterL

Humbert and Annabel were too young to copulate, so there was no clear erotic activity, and it is clear from the quotes that you provided that there was no actual sexual activity.

---

What does it matter whether they had actual sexual intercourse or not? What they were engaged in was clearly erotic, and could be titillating to some. These passages with Annabel, and the others where he describes his sexual activities with Dolores, are explicitly sexual and not symbolic. So Lolita does have quite a bit of sex in it. I wouldn't call it porn though.

Thanks for posting those quotes, Petronius. It's been a while since I read the book, and I had this mental image of an enraged young Humbert trying to sheild Annabel from the onlookers' gaze as she hopped into her shorts, and till I read your post I wondered if I was making it up. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chasestalling

annabel dies of typhus after sexual/erotic episode on the beach with humbert.

---

While she died, there was no sexual activity between the two.

Quote:

---

Humbert and Annabel were too young to copulate, so there was no clear erotic activity, and it is clear from the quotes that you provided that there was no actual sexual activity.

---

Says who? It's obvious the characters feel sexual attraction, but they are inexperienced, although Humbert does mention that "my father gave me all the information he thought I needed about sex", scared and under vigillent watch. How about, from the following chapter:

"She would try to relieve the pain of love by first roughly rubbing her dry lips against mine; then my darling would draw away with a nervous toss of her hair, and then again come darkly near and let me feed on her open mouth, while with a generosity that was ready to offer her everything, my heart, my throat, my entrails, I have her to hold in her awkward fist the scepter of my passion."

That they didn't manage to have intercourse doesn't mean there was nothing sexual about the relationship. In fact, should you read the first part of Ada or Ardor, you will see Nabokov treat this same theme more elaborately, and in this case there will be no doubt that the characters (ages 12 and 14) develop erotic feelings towards eachother and, to perfectly satisfy your requirements, do manage to successfuly copulate.

Quote:

---

Thanks for posting those quotes, Petronius. It's been a while since I read the book, and I had this mental image of an enraged young Humbert trying to sheild Annabel from the onlookers' gaze as she hopped into her shorts, and till I read your post I wondered if I was making it up.

---

You're welcome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Petronius

Says who? It's obvious the characters feel sexual attraction, but they are inexperienced, although Humbert does mention that "my father gave me all the information he thought I needed about sex", scared and under vigillent watch. How about, from the following chapter:

"She would try to relieve the pain of love by first roughly rubbing her dry lips against mine; then my darling would draw away with a nervous toss of her hair, and then again come darkly near and let me feed on her open mouth, while with a generosity that was ready to offer her everything, my heart, my throat, my entrails, I have her to hold in her awkward fist the scepter of my passion."

That they didn't manage to have intercourse doesn't mean there was nothing sexual about the relationship. In fact, should you read the first part of Ada or Ardor, you will see Nabokov treat this same theme more elaborately, and in this case there will be no doubt that the characters (ages 12 and 14) develop erotic feelings towards eachother and, to perfectly satisfy your requirements, do manage to successfuly copulate.

---

They may have felt physical attraction and lust, but there is no evidence that they engaged in sexual intercourse, and there it reason to believe that Humbert was incapable of doing so. I got the impression that Humbert was prepubescent at the time of those encounters, but I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure.

Quote:

---

They may have felt physical attraction and lust, but there is no evidence that they engaged in sexual intercourse, and there it reason to believe that Humbert was incapable of doing so. I got the impression that Humbert was prepubescent at the time of those encounters, but I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure.

---

They didn't, but there were plenty of things to stop them other than just physical incapacity, of which I didn't notice any signs. Please quote the passage/ explain why you would think so.
They weren't prepubescent (since they experience sexual emotions), merely preadolescent. ;)