Printable View
Then why appeal to the basest lusts? I doubt the quran says that the sensual acts desribed are incomprehensible. Maybe the quality of skin is unexpected, and the colors, and the look of the place, but other things are pretty obvious details.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
It is not true that a man may only take another wife for those reasons. He can have more than one wife simply by wanting to have her. That is a reason enough, and God gave him that choice. However, God also gave woman the choice to decide whether or not they want to live in those marriages or not. No one can force a woman to marry, and therefore, no one can force her to live in a polygamous marriages. As we have stated before, the Bible gives numerous examples of polygamous marriages, and does not condemn them in any way. The Prophet Abraham a.s had two wives, and it was perfectly fine. Another thing, polygamous marriages are rarely practiced in muslim countries today, and I don't really see a reason to even discuss them so exhaustively. In most countries today, there are proportionally more women than men, and in time, the ratio will only increase. What does Christianity have to offer as a solution to this problem? What will a woman do who cannot find a marriage partner because there is a shortage:) of men? Islam gave this solution; it may not appeal to you, it may not be something that you would practice, and you have the right to do so, but it is something. Prophet Mohammed a.s married many women who were widows, and who needed protection, but also married women for pleasure. Both reasons are perfectly fine, because we are human beings, and God does not expect us to be holy, nor to supress our human desires. He only wants us to stay within His limits.Quote:
Since some muslims claim that polygamy is only to care for widows in distress in this imperfect world, why take even one more wife in a place where no woman is poor and in need of financial sheltering?
I don't know what this is supposed to mean? In heaven, husband and wife will be reunited, and will live in eternal bliss together. God is just, and those who earn paradise will enjoy God's mercy forever. I don't think that paradise will be place for a disgruntled jealous wife. :DQuote:
Was the earthly wife a piece of used garbage after using her here, so that a new virgin is preferable? And they are to have virgins who are not virgins themselves?
The greatest reward in paradise will be the opportunity to look at Allah's s.v.t face. There will be no pain, or suffering, and people will live in eternal bliss enjoying God's mercy. That is what the Qur'an teaches us. Other rewards that are promised are incomprehensible to us, as God Himself said that paradise is nothing a human has ever seen, or could possibly imagine. If a man will have virgins to enjoy, than that is God's decision, and I am perfectly fine with that. Who am I to doubt God's wisdom? Why would I care what anyone does if I have the opportunity to be in paradise in God's closeness? How earthly are your thoughts? :confused:Quote:
Then why appeal to the basest lusts? I doubt the quran says that the sensual acts desribed are incomprehensible. Maybe the quality of skin is unexpected, and the colors, and the look of the place, but other things are pretty obvious details.
Some hadiths regarding the treatment of women:
The Prophet (pbuh) said: "The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife."
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: "The best thing in this world is a virtuous woman (wife)." - Riyadh us-Salaheen, 1:280
The man asked] "Who is more entitled to be treated with the best companionship by me?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man said. "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man further said, "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your mother." The man asked for the fourth time, "Who is next?" The Prophet said, "Your father."
Parts of Prophet Mohammed's last sermon shortly after he died... This summerizes his teachings, and what kind of a man he was..
O People
Lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefor listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.
O People
Just as you regard this month, this day, this city as sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds. Allah has forbidden you to take usury (interest); therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity.
Allah has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all interest due to Abbas Ibn ‘Abd al Muttalib (the Prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived.
Beware of Satan for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.
O People
It is true that you have certain rights in regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives, only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat you women well and be kind to them, for they are your partners and committed helpers.
O People
Listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat.
Perform Hajj if you can afford to.
All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black, nor a black has any superiority over a white- except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim, which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not therefor, do injustice to yourselves.
Remember one day you will appear before Allah and answer for your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone. People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well therefore, O people, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and the Sunnah (Hadith), and if you follow these you will never go astray. All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listened to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people."
I had written:
Quote:
Since some muslims claim that polygamy is only to care for widows in distress in this imperfect world, why take even one more wife in a place where no woman is poor and in need of financial sheltering?
No HE did not. Any man that is married and is on the lookout for another wife is a bad husband - I mean, no husband at all. As I mentioned to you before, I have never looked to get anything back from any woman I have helped - a contemptable thing to condition help of widows on. But you make it sound even worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
Actually, I already demonstrated from the only Writings the Arabs first knew of Abraham from - the Bible - that he erred in the whole Hagar fiasco in a state of despair in old age, and that GOD waited to fulfill Promises to him, withholding them until a time of Penance after having nothing further to do with Hagar. She had no problem bearing a child at once, and Abraham - who had long been trying to have a child - did not practice birth control - so Hagar having no further child is a good indication of all that I already adequately stated before (but your ideology won't admit of a Biblical hatred of polygamy).Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=15942&page=1
For political reasons, I cannot here address that. But I can say this: that the hope of "Paradisial polygamy" is a present problem of the heart that affects marriages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
There are a lot of women (and little girls) that are concubines against their wills - and some of them don't wish to be sexually entwined with anyone. Nuns were stolen by muslims of the Ottoman empire - one mothered a sultan. Not all are called to Marriage. Don't presume all women want a man - a woman doesn't exist just to let a man have a role filled generically in his life. Lust is not a need. The only worthwhile use for sex is as a part of absolute Unity of Pure Love between two that are inseparable on a personal level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
Do you want me to praise someone for this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Amra
GOD doesn't want us to be holy? Is this your excuse for the man that you - not I - just named in the same train of thought? I thought you earlier told me that all Prophets are holy, that Muhammad is a prophet, and that he was holy.
We, being created in GOD's Image, ought to have self control. GOD has the ability to destroy infinite creations over and over, but HE doesn't do it just because HE can. We, too, ought to reflect such divine reserve, rather than acting on selfish impulse. Will you try to find fault even with this?
I had written:
Quote:
Was the earthly wife a piece of used garbage after using her here, so that a new virgin is preferable? And they are to have virgins who are not virgins themselves?
Either you truly do not understand the clear statement I made, or I do not understand your sense of justice. You answer my heartfelt contention against such disregard for an earthly wife, in favor of further "maids of paradise", as though the earthly wife ought to go to hell rather than paradise if she feels jealous. No woman ought to feel jealous of a man like that. No woman ought to accept being used as a tempoaray shell like that.Quote:
I don't know what this is supposed to mean? In heaven, husband and wife will be reunited, and will live in eternal bliss together. God is just, and those who earn paradise will enjoy God's mercy forever. I don't think that paradise will be place for a disgruntled jealous wife. :D
In true Love, jealousy, like pain in the body where injury has occurred, is a healthy indicator that something is not well. If one is not jealous when betrayed by a beloved, she isn't truly bound to that man by Love.
I already have seen what my eye did not see before, and have heard what I previously never had heard, and understand spiritual things that my soul could not concieve of until it gained a Living Spirit. And whose thoughts are earthly? The man who has no sexual self control, or the one that sees an ideal for all men to lay hold of, that reflects GOD? Such an awkward accusation.Quote:
The greatest reward in paradise will be the opportunity to look at Allah's s.v.t face. There will be no pain, or suffering, and people will live in eternal bliss enjoying God's mercy. That is what the Qur'an teaches us. Other rewards that are promised are incomprehensible to us, as God Himself said that paradise is nothing a human has ever seen, or could possibly imagine. If a man will have virgins to enjoy, than that is God's decision, and I am perfectly fine with that. Who am I to doubt God's wisdom? Why would I care what anyone does if I have the opportunity to be in paradise in God's closeness? How earthly are your thoughts? :confused:
When the Apostle Peter calls the woman the "weaker sex", he refers to her vulnerability to male harshness and force, and any one that, from the male position of strength, gives less than he takes, is nothing like GOD.
hello- welll goodness me what a thread :) ok I have a few points first off who was this tariq guy?
Anyway that bit about pure( virgin wives) As far as I KNow that snt what the ayyah says it says
(wa lakum feeha Azwajin mutahirat )
And in it you will havve pure spouses.
And On a grammaticall point if the ayah had said Zowjat (this is the feminie plural) and this is the masculine plural for many husbands. Actually my sister says (and shes our gramitcal genius) the word actually means couple or pair or marrige.
So the ayah is actually pormising pure marriages in heaven.
Of course the arbic languge (and grammer :sick: ) being what it is most everything in The koran appears to be addressing men because that plural can be unisexual but the feminine plural refers exclusivly to females.
next pont polyigamy. Personally I have no objection to it.
I dont think d mind if my husband decided to marry again in fact I may well support him.
However Ive never been in ove or married or anything so my opinion mya change with time. I know that nowadays smost people really really object to it muslims included, I know most opf the women in my family would ber tempted to kill their husbands if they remarried I think some of the masle realtives would have objections too.
AS for heaven Ive never trully understood the idea but as I understand it (:brow: ) Im not meant too (what no eye saw and all that). I rember when I was 8 asking if theyd go to heaven forever would they end up getting bored? Apparantly not.Maybe we wont be able to feel bordom then. What I belive is you will have everything you want before you even knew you wanted it. and maybe evryone's heaven will be different.
:D
That is your opinion, but we are not talking about opinions here. I am giving you the Islam perspective on this issue, you may accept it or not, but your opinion about a bad husand is irrelevant. Prophet Mohammed a.s was the best person ever to live, and was an amazing husband to his wives. We have many hadiths that come from Aisha r.a, and all we here are great praises about him. Men could be good or bad husbands depending on whether or not they fear God, not by how many wives they have. Also, why do you think that it is only your right to decide if you should marry or not? Don't you think that women derive pleasure from marriage as well? Don't you think that women have the right to live in a marriage, and enjoy its benefits, whatever they may be? As human beings, we have an inclination to live in a family, and everyone has a right to that. Prophet Mohammed a.s strongly discouraged living a single life, and encouraged marriages as soon as all necessary conditions were fulfilled. As I stated, some women do not mind living in a polygamous marriages, and God gave them the right to do so. Reasons may vary as to why someone decides to do that, but why do you mind something that both parties have free choices to? I know a person (not personally, but he is a prominent figure in my country) who is a very vell educated scholar, and who recently married another wife. My country is a secular contry, where polygamous marriages are almost unheard of. Who do you think forced that woman to enter a marriage like that? No one. She chose it, and he had a right to it, and so far no one has heard any problems about it. Again, as I stated, polygamy is blown way out of proportions because many men do not want to marry more than one wife, nor do many women want to live in polygamous marriages. Those who don't mind that have the choice to exercise it as well, and why should you prohibit them from doing so?Quote:
No HE did not. Any man that is married and is on the lookout for another wife is a bad husband - I mean, no husband at all. As I mentioned to you before, I have never looked to get anything back from any woman I have helped - a contemptable thing to condition help of widows on. But you make it sound even worse.
This is your free interpretation of what happened, but there is nothing in the Bible hinting on any of this. He was married to two women, and God NEVER condemned any of this in the whole Bible story. Why are you condemning something that God didn't condemn? Where in the Bible does God say that Abraham erred because of having two wives? Where does God say that it is fobidden to have more than one wife? Where is the Bible's hatred of polygamous marriages apparent? Can you cite verses that would support this idea of yours? There are verses that talk about polygamous marriages, and give instructions on how to treat the children of "the hated" wife, and the "loved" wife. ;) NOt one mention on the hatred of the polygamous marriage itself.Quote:
Actually, I already demonstrated from the only Writings the Arabs first knew of Abraham from - the Bible - that he erred in the whole Hagar fiasco in a state of despair in old age, and that GOD waited to fulfill Promises to him, withholding them until a time of Penance after having nothing further to do with Hagar. She had no problem bearing a child at once, and Abraham - who had long been trying to have a child - did not practice birth control - so Hagar having no further child is a good indication of all that I already adequately stated before (but your ideology won't admit of a Biblical hatred of polygamy).
This is an opinion based on nothing, so I'll just ignore it.Quote:
For political reasons, I cannot here address that. But I can say this: that the hope of "Paradisial polygamy" is a present problem of the heart that affects marriages
Can you give any kind of references to what you are claiming? Where are the concubines? What about those women who don't want to be sexually entwined? I don't know of any muslim woman who prefers to stay unmarried? Why should she? But, even if there are women like that, how does that relate to our topic? If the woman doesnt' want to marry, than she simply doesn't marry. Period.Quote:
There are a lot of women (and little girls) that are concubines against their wills - and some of them don't wish to be sexually entwined with anyone.
Any references? What does this have to do with our topic? Where does Islam call for stealing nuns? If the Ottoman empire did things that are not in agreement with Islam, I will be the first to condemn it. Just like you claim that the crusaders were not TRUE Christians, I can claim that not all of the Ottoman Empire was ruled by TRUE muslims, especially not towards the end of it. However, most historians will agree that countries that were ruled by Islam had a much higher tolerance towards other religions than those that were conquered by Christians. REad more about Sallahudeen Ayubi.Quote:
Nuns were stolen by muslims of the Ottoman empire - one mothered a sultan.
First of all, marriage is essential part of human life. There are few people in the world today, no matter from what background and culture they come frome, who choose to not be in a marriage at some point in their life. Human beings have desires and temptations, and marriage fullfills many of those desires, both emotional and physical. Islam is a religion aligned with human nautre in the way that it doesn't expect us to abandon our nature and become something else to be considered believers. We are not angels, because only angels do not sin, and we are not sheytans (followers of Satan/Iblis) so that we may not feel repentantce when we do sin. We are human beings, who have the free will to decide how they want to live, and those who claim to be believers will follow God's way; that means they will still sin, no matter how hard they try not to, but they will also repent every time they do so. It also doesn't mean that our desires will go away, but only that we will excercise self-control when it comes to not crossing God's limits when fulfilling them. Physical pleasure is part of human nature, and God does not expect us to abandon that or feel bad about it, but simply to exercise it within the limits of a marriage. It is said that a intimate relationship between a husband and wife is a good deed, for which God will reward people.Quote:
Don't presume all women want a man - a woman doesn't exist just to let a man have a role filled generically in his life. Lust is not a need. The only worthwhile use for sex is as a part of absolute Unity of Pure Love between two that are inseparable on a personal level.
Only if you really have the urge to do so. :)Quote:
Do you want me to praise someone for this?
All Prophets are sinless. This means that they do not commit sin towards God. However, they do make mistakes in the sense that they are not perfect. For example, there is a whole surah in the holy Qur'an that refers to one incident in which a blind man came to Prophet Mohammed a.s and asked him something while the Prophet was speaking, and the Prophet frowned on him. In the surah Allah t. reprimands him for doing that. This shows his human nature. Human beings are not sinless, and can NEVER be. We can NEVER be holy, no matter how much we tried. God says in one ayat that if human beings didn't sin, He would create other creatures who would. When we sin and repent, we are expressing our constant need for God and His mercy. However, we struggle each day to sin less, and to follow God's way, and it is a struggle that will not stop until we die.Quote:
GOD doesn't want us to be holy? Is this your excuse for the man that you - not I - just named in the same train of thought? I thought you earlier told me that all Prophets are holy, that Muhammad is a prophet, and that he was holy.
We don't believe that we were created in God's image. This is an absurd idea. Creator and creation can NEVER be the same. Self control is excercised within the limits that God imposed on us, and I never said that we shouldn't possess it. Human beings do not have a divine impulse, and I am not really sure what you mean with that. WE should always try to be better, and to become closer to God, to feel sorry for our sins, but to become divine or holy would go against our very nature.Quote:
We, being created in GOD's Image, ought to have self control. GOD has the ability to destroy infinite creations over and over, but HE doesn't do it just because HE can. We, too, ought to reflect such divine reserve, rather than acting on selfish impulse. Will you try to find fault even with this?
Paradise is God's reward to those human beings who follow His way. In paradise, people will not feel any suffering, nor will there be any injustice done to anyone. How then do you suppose to have a jealous wife in paradise? :) Paradise is eternal bliss in God's presence, and I just can't figure out how you can seriously talk to me about human feelings such as jealousy in paradise? Do you think someone who lives in the presence of God Almighty, and has everything that he/she ever wished for and more will find reason to not be happy? :confused: God promises us eternal happieness and justice in paradise, and we believe that this is true. In one hadith it is said that women who enter paradise will be made more beautiful than any huriye (virgin). What does this really mean? What is God telling us here? We don't know. All descriptions of paradise are very metaphorical, and we simply cannot imagine how life there will be. But, it would be ludicrous to think that the Creator of everything would create His paradise in such a way that there will be masses of disgruntled wives wandering around. :DQuote:
Either you truly do not understand the clear statement I made, or I do not understand your sense of justice. You answer my heartfelt contention against such disregard for an earthly wife, in favor of further "maids of paradise", as though the earthly wife ought to go to hell rather than paradise if she feels jealous. No woman ought to feel jealous of a man like that. No woman ought to accept being used as a tempoaray shell like that.
Do you think there will be jealousy in paradise? If you think that, then you think also that there will be suffering, and hence injustice. In Islam, God promised us that none of these will be present, and we believe in His promise. You can't compare human feelings on Earth to something in paradise. Is our human nature going to be the same in paradise as it is on Earth?Quote:
In true Love, jealousy, like pain in the body where injury has occurred, is a healthy indicator that something is not well. If one is not jealous when betrayed by a beloved, she isn't truly bound to that man by Love.
Lol. When God says that paradise will be something like we have never heard or seen, then it is undestood that these things were not seen or heard or imagined BEFORE we enter paradise. It doesn't mean before you became a beliver. ;) You have experienced NEW things, that doesn't mean you have experienced paradise. Unless the Bible teaches that you can become holy, divine, and enter paradise on EArth?Quote:
I already have seen what my eye did not see before, and have heard what I previously never had heard, and understand spiritual things that my soul could not concieve of until it gained a Living Spirit.
Yes. What else could they be? You are a human being, and you live on Earth. You cannot escape that nature, nor the limitations of the Earth as long as you are on it.Quote:
And whose thoughts are earthly?
Human beings cannot reflect God. Who said that a man doesn't have self control? What does this mean anyways? YOu may define self control one way, and I may define it differently. HOwever, claiming that someone doesn't have self control simply because he did something outside of your definition is ludicruous. God has defined what self control is, and I agree that those who transgress those limits are sinning, and need to repent. HOwever, a man having two wives has not transgressed God's limits, therefore he cannot be thought of as not possessing self-control. You may say that from your perspective, but in Islam, his self-control is just fine.Quote:
The man who has no sexual self control, or the one that sees an ideal for all men to lay hold of, that reflects GOD? Such an awkward accusation.
No one is like God.Quote:
When the Apostle Peter calls the woman the "weaker sex", he refers to her vulnerability to male harshness and force, and any one that, from the male position of strength, gives less than he takes, is nothing like GOD.
I don't understand why it is hard for you to accept the fact that women in Islam are not treated unjustly, nor are they forced to live in marriages they do not want to. I have told you myself that I do not condemnt polygamy when it is exercised within God's limits, and another member above my post:), a muslim woman herself, has claimed the same. Why then do you continue to speak FOR us, and imagine that we are treated unjustly, and that polygamy is somehow imposed upon us? Do you think that women are not intelligent enough to think for themselves, so that you need to save them, or you simply cannot accept the fact that we are perfectly fine with the role God gave us, and do not think of ourselves as being opressed in any way? An interesting fact that you may want to research is that most converts in Islam are women, who have all the freedom in the world (as you would claim), but choose to live a dignified life of a muslim woman. Why do you think that is so?
In order to treat of the matter of women today would be to open a political thunderstorm. It's as if you have never heard of all sorts of countries and there attrocious problems. Your worldview is unrealistic, and I am appalled.
Please keep personal comments out of this topic.
We are not discussing the treatment of women today in various countries, but the treatment of women in Islam. The treatment of women in all countries is pretty bad, not just muslim countries, but christian countries, and others. This has nothing to do with Islam, and I will be the first to condemn any attrocious:) problems that these women are facing. However, this has nothing to do with Islam, as Islam does not promote this kind of behavior. Did you know that 1 out of 3 women in the USA will be abused during their lifetime, usually by their husbands, boyfriends, or family members. Did you know that there are female genital mutilations in some muslim countries? Did you know that some women in India are burned alive after their husbands die? Did you know that there are more females being raped today than ever before? Did you know that on average a female makes about 0.20 cents less than a man, for every dollar they make, doing the same job? Did you know that there was never a female president in the USA? Did you know that women in SAudi Arabia are not allowed to drive by themselves? I could go on and on... Do you want to discuss these things? If you do, open a topic, and I will be the first to agree with you. HOwever, we are discussing Islam, and Islam does NOT promote any of these things, and anyone who does them needs to be punished and reprimanded.Quote:
It's as if you have never heard of all sorts of countries and there attrocious problems. Your worldview is unrealistic, and I am appalled.
Amra,
Is there a Muslim country that treats women with as much or more respect, in legal terms, as most Western non-Muslim countries? It seems to me that most Muslim countries I have read about have a far worse record towards women than the West. And that poses the question as to why this should be so. Of course, the answer may have more to do with the nature of society and politics than gender. It is of course possible for a society to have greater sexual equality and still treat women with less respect than the average Western nation.
The question is really hard to answer, because there are so many factors influencing it that require an indepth analysis. Many muslim countries today are ruled by dictators who do not care about their people's well being. Also, the shariah law is not implemented in any of them. For a woman to enjoy all that Islam gave her, the shariah law had to be implemented completely. For the last couple of centuries (500 to be exact), the West has mingled into the affairs of the islamic world in various ways. Some are promoting secularism, others anything but Islam, and then we have many muslim countries who are torn between these things. They are neither democratic, nor islamic. Many muslim countries were ruled by communism that forbade any religious practice in the public. Because of that, muslim women could not go to school, as their headscarf was foribidden in public institutions. This happened to my country in 1970's, and many women were hit hard with this. They were left with no option to gain an education, work, and were looked at as secondary class citizens. The same phenomena is happening to Turkey right now. It is a country with 99% muslims, but they forbid women to wear the scarf to school, or work covered up in any public places. The reason they are doing it is because they want to get into the EU, who dictates to them how they need to treat women so that they comply with the international law whatever that means. Now you have 40 million women who either have to take off their headscarf, or be left uneducated, and without a way to gain an income. If the EU promotes freedom of religion, how can it then forbid these things in a country that they supposedly want to become MORE democratic? These are the reasons many women are left uneducated, and then of course her prospects of having an influence in the society she lives greatly decreases, making her a second class citizen dependant on men. The West simply doesn't realize the problems they are creating by wanting to force various social norms and cultures onto societies that have not lived under them for centuries, nor aspired to live under them. Further, it is hard to define what it means to treat women badly. Is it good that women in the west are "free" to take off their clothes, and that men use them as sexual objects to promote whatever there is to promote? Or, is it worse that women wear headscarves in muslim countries? It is hard to draw the line, but I would agree with you that muslim countries have a very unfortunate record when it comes to treatment of women, and the main reason for that would actually be the distancing from Islam they have experienced, lack of educations, and primitive cultural and traditional value that they adhere by. Muslims have many problems that they need to address, but the West needs to let them deal with those problems by themselves.Quote:
Is there a Muslim country that treats women with as much or more respect, in legal terms, as most Western non-Muslim countries? It seems to me that most Muslim countries I have read about have a far worse record towards women than the West. And that poses the question as to why this should be so. Of course, the answer may have more to do with the nature of society and politics than gender. It is of course possible for a society to have greater sexual equality and still treat women with less respect than the average Western nation.
Technically Islamic law treats women better if anything. in real life the answer as I have seen is on the most part they are not really worse ( of cousrse ther are always the obvious exseptions) but opn the most part they are equally as bad as each other just in differeant ways.
As for head scarves and such I wear one. I would be extremly annoyed if someone tried to take it off me ( although I do not consder it a nessty to a practising muslim woman and may choose not to wear it a t a future date), it is my disciton and the law any law should not interfere with the expression of religioon unlesss it is being expressed in an obcviously illegal/ anti socval manner like oh i dont know human sacrifices) as long as I hurt no one by my practises why should I be forced to conform?
If anything I think that the whole lets put are selves on show idealism is worse. but Ive wondered off topic somehow.
I think much of the problems are perception its people looking in and not really understanding what they see or only seeing the obvious and mising all the little things.
Did you know that the jewish women wore scarves it was a symble of status and wealth ( or was that the christians Im always getting this muddled) anywway the christians also wore it as a simple of modisty ( again could be vise versa) but in the arab world, or at least in the arb world that I saw and lived in ( notice I am addmitting that I cant generalise as there are many layers to any culture and one nebver sees more than a few) wearing a scarf was hummm protection? It mena You were treated with courtisy and poltness and you--I was less annoyed by unwanted attention and comments than if I hadnt worn it.
atiguhya padma I dont want to cause a fight or anything butI think personally the west Is great on equality but respect isnt there? or do I mean the oppoisite? NO imean That . Thee is sexual equality sure we have women as political leaders and in high powerd jobs and everythng.Quote:
It is of course possible for a society to have greater sexual equality and still treat women with less respect than the average Western nation.
But respect no, not really IM not saying there is no respect of women Im just saying Western socity doesnt really -despite the whole equality fuss- expect more of women that to want to catch a man. And to look pretty for them and well ahhh I cant explain it. Its a feeling I am much more comfortable walking in the streets in a muslim country (even at 7 in the morning when a blood splatered man in butchers boots asks me directions to the mental hospital (All true)) than I was today just going to the cornor shop n broad daylight in the western world.
:D
If any of that is sensible Ill eat my hat:rolleyes: :lol:
you made perfect sense little Night. It is good to see you and your words are always fair and kind. kisses